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Thread: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

  1. #61

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    I concur which is why I have at least 4 of the Solarforce L2 hosts and various extension tubes. The L2 host at most is only $25 on Lighthound. The Malkoff's however are worth every penny, they are great.

  2. #62
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Funny that my ears have been burning all evening, as I ran 18 sets of tests with the pill that GMan sent (six pair of new SF batts, three light level readings per pair). Using his baseline readings, my earlier lumen calculations were 18.2% too high. I edited post #21 in this thread to reflect these corrected readings.

    William, your sphere setup is much too simple & too easy to modify I really like your approach, and appreciate the effort it took to generate the readings.

    The Malkoff's however are worth every penny, they are great.
    +1

    A 6P plus an M60 is an awesome light for night time walks, especially with the 2-stage mod from Wayne. About $100 and a great value. I expect my P7 Mac will blow it away, but it should for three times the cost.
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  3. #63

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Gentlepeople, I have installed a baffle, and the results are, I think, very interesting. First of all, a couple of pictures, showing the baffle and the sensor port:

    http://www.meier-phelps.com/temp/IMG00025.jpg
    http://www.meier-phelps.com/temp/IMG00026.jpg

    I admit, the baffle is a bit of a hack, not exactly round, but I was in a hurry. The black ring in the sensor port is a bit of rubber fuel line, it hold the tip of the fiber optic probe very nicely.

    Now the measurements (cd/m2, CCT in K, calc'd Lumens):

    Code:
    Fenix L0D Q5         Hi   2051  5455K    82
    Muyshondt Aeon       Hi   3219  5077k   129
    Bitz Pocket          Hi   3252  6080K   130
    Nitecore Defender    Hi   3387  6213K   135
    Nitecore EX10        Hi   4220  5739K   169
    Olight T10           Hi   4455  6147K   178
    Dereelight DBS V2     -   5380  5633K   215
    Jetbeam II IBS       Hi   5522  6048K   221
    Lummi Raw NS         Hi   6688  6409K   258
    Milkyspit Creemator  Hi   7674  6577K   307
    MTE SSC P7           Hi  11490  5674K   460
    
    (The Fenix has freshly charged batteries)

    I can repeat measurements and get within three percent. For example:

    Code:
    Bitz Pocket          Hi   3332  -----   133    2.2%
    Muyshondt Aeon       Hi   3291  -----   132    2.2%
    Olight T10           Hi   4580  -----   183    2.8%
    Jetbeam II IBS       Hi   5675  -----   227    2.8%
    
    Some of this error is due to the Lightspex recalculating dark frames every time it changes ranges. I'm being lazy and just covering the light being tested, and not actually pulling the probe and covering it...

    These numbers look really good to me. I've got a Fenix T1 coming so I can check that.

    At some point I want to do a run with a more affordable meter like one of the Extechs (I have a 403125 here) and see if I can calibrate that to get the same readings. If I can, then we could actually build these for a very reasonable price.

    Other than that I think I'm done unless someone can point out something I'm missing. What fun!

    William
    Last edited by wbp; 07-30-2008 at 01:04 AM.
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  4. #64
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Impressive results, William

    You tabulation makes it easy to read all the data that was collected.

    I think I'm done unless someone can point out something I'm missing
    The only other thing that I've done (actually just started) is to measure mA draw of each light. There is quite a lot of difference in drivers/converters ... some keep the current draw dead constant, others run almost a sinusoidal range of values while keeping the lumen output steady.

    Another observation is that most any SureFire CR123, either single or in pairs, makes almost no difference in lumen level - again this depends on the driver/converter. New batteries generate the same levels as those that have seen weeks of use, at least in my limited testing. Most runtime curves show nearly level lumens until the end, so this should be no surprise - but I thought a new battery would have some impact.
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  5. #65

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    Impressive results, William
    Thanks! You're work inspired me to even try this...

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    Another observation is that most any SureFire CR123, either single or in pairs, makes almost no difference in lumen level - again this depends on the driver/converter. New batteries generate the same levels as those that have seen weeks of use, at least in my limited testing. Most runtime curves show nearly level lumens until the end, so this should be no surprise - but I thought a new battery would have some impact.
    I agree current measurements are interesting, but it can be difficult to measure on some of these lights. I've had to build all kinds of sleeves etc. Don't have the time for that right now.

    I've also noticed how well regulated (or not) some of the lights are. The Creemator, for example, is rock solid. The Lummi Raw NS output drops steadily in high, but that's not a big surprise given what it's putting out and how hot it gets. I need to ask Rob if it might be broken, the specs are 160 lumens and it's putting out 260. It's much easier to see this with the a meter that reads continuously, like the Extech, rather than the Lightspex.

    William
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  6. #66
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    One thing to keep in mind is production tolereances of actual finished lights. I suspect if you had 10 Nitecore D10s (or any other production light) to test you would find a 20% or more difference in max brightness.
    Light is the activity of what is transparent - Aristotle

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    First let me say Great Thread,this is one of the best reading and informative threads to come through CPF in a while.I have followed it with high interest.

    I built a homemade lightbox a year or so ago,and have been very pleased with the results,though it was not nearly as impressive.It was put together very quickly and rather sloppily because I was unsure of the outcome,and didnt want to spend too much time if it didnt work.

    I have mine very close,within 5%-7%,I believe.SSC P4 USWOH's from Fred
    have all measured 240-250 @ 1000ma.A Surefire 6PL starts out around 100,but drops off after a while,which I think is correct because if you look at Chevro's runtime chart,it drops off after about 1/2 hour and remains fairly constant for the life of the batteries.

    May I make a suggestion?

    MrGman,I am assuming you have a CC power supply near the IS you have access to...
    precisionworks,do you have access to one?The reason I ask is this,I would be very happy,if you guys were willing,to put together a few bare emitters on heatsinks to wire up and test output.I could cutdown a Mag into 5 or 6in sections and mount the LED's on H22A heatsinks,with a Deans plug or similar coming out the back to make the connections quickly.The LED's would be a Cree XRE R2,SSC P4 USWOH and P7 CSXPI.Also,maybe a well regulated torch.If you guys dont want to go through the hassle I understand.Even passing around a well regulated light that MrGman had tested would be extremely helpful.

    Thanks,
    Michael

  8. #68

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    A 6P plus an M60 is an awesome light for night time walks, especially with the 2-stage mod from Wayne. About $100 and a great value. I expect my P7 Mac will blow it away, but it should for three times the cost.
    Well, the Milkyspit Creemator is all of that too, it's my hands down favorite for total output, color, and throw. It was, however, quite a bit more than a 6p/M60. I'm find that I really like being able to choose the light level, I think I'd miss that with the M60. That said, I ordered one and an L2 from Lighthound so I can measure it... Gonna big a big sale on B/S/T when I'm done with this project!

    It would really be interesting to measure the same light on both our spheres and MrGman's commercial IS. Is there something we can pass around?

    William
    Live life to the max - drink scotch that is older than you are - if you can find it!

  9. #69

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    "It would really be interesting to measure the same light on both our spheres and MrGman's commercial IS. Is there something we can pass around?"

    You can start with a bottle of 60 year Scotch, send it my way and I can see what I can do for you?

    I gave my R2-5 mode Pill to Precisionworks to keep as his source reference. If he wants to share it with you and then you send it back to him when you are done with it, its up to him.

    Do you have a precison power supply in the 3 to 5V range that can put out up to 1 amp in a precise manner? I may have something else for you but it will take a while to get going.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGman View Post
    You can start with a bottle of 60 year Scotch, send it my way and I can see what I can do for you?
    I don't have anything that young (see my sig).
    Live life to the max - drink scotch that is older than you are - if you can find it!

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    precisionworks... here's an offer that should get your interest.

    a year or so ago.. silverfox and don co-sponsored a pass around for a set of lights to folks that had identical Meterman LM631

    we all measured the same set of lights, which then were sent to a lab with an integrating sphere.

    these lights became calibration standards in their own right. we got to see how each LM631 reacted to the same set of lights.

    my meterman that took part in this pass around is available to you.
    please PM if interested...

  12. #72

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Are any of the lights available?
    Last edited by wbp; 07-29-2008 at 12:44 AM.
    Live life to the max - drink scotch that is older than you are - if you can find it!

  13. #73

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    TexLite, yes I have a constant current power supply. I was thinking of putting a LED chip on a copper or Aluminum substrate disk that can simply be held up at the port and taken to a couple of obvious current settings like 0.350A and 0.750A, if its a good heatsink than 1.0000A.

    We simply get heat sink cubes and put the LED substrate on the front of that and have holders to hold it at the port.

    So yes we could do something along those lines I will pm my address to you.

    Wbp I am not impressed with you craftsmanship but definitely impressed with your greater than 60 year old scotch, I will be even more impressed when you send me a bottle. Oh, and I am also impressed with the final results which is all that matters. Your DBS V2 coming in at 215 lumens is very close to what I predicted it should be based on the corrections made to precisionworks final numbers once I gave him the calibration standard R2-5 unit.

    I have heard of these Milkyspit units but am not really familiar with them. Give us a little elaboration on what that unit is, what it cost, what it runs on etc. And then the MTE SSC P7 also. great work.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    MrGman - tell you what, next time I see you I'll share some with you. But I ain't shipping it anywhere! I bring it back personally when I go over for work.

    Here's one thread on the Creemator:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=189777

    In that review he says 900 ma on hi. Mine does something like 1250 ma on hi on a pair of CR123's, might be a newer one. Not cheap - you start with an SF E2E or E1B or the like, add a KL1 or KL2 head, then send it to Milkyspit to have it modded. Regulation is outstanding, color is excellent, almost perfect d65. 4 output levels.

    The MTE is a cheapie ($45) from DealExtreme which I picked up used just to play with. It has no regulation, a huge reflector, and a tight beam. Uses a P7 (4 chip) LED.

    ps: craftsmanship? you don't like gaffer tape? no time for that until after CEDIA. besides, I like how it looks - I can hang it from the ceiling and call it a mobile when it's not being used to measure flashlights!
    Last edited by wbp; 07-29-2008 at 03:09 AM.
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  15. #75
    Flashaholic* orb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    William


    Wow 260 Lumens, you sure got a high flux Cree there.
    There is no fault with your light, when running on high the Raw NS will become warm after a few minutes.
    This is normal & the nature of a light this size & bright. If your holding the light it does assist on cooling as your hand will act as a larger heat sink.
    I am impressed with your simple yet effective styro sphere this whole thread made for very interesting reading.
    Out of interest what lumens do you measure on low? If you have the time.
    I have not long since adjusted the lumens on high on our web site to 200 mainly due to now supplying with the R2 LED.
    But it is nice to see that the actual lumens could be quite a bit more.

    What I did see that is interesting is the higher the colour temperature the higher the lumens seems to be.
    Do you agree with this?
    My main reason for interest here is because at the moment the warmer bin LED's seem to be more popular.
    I wonder if there is a big gap in Lumens this will stay the case?
    Rob
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  16. #76
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by orb View Post
    ...
    What I did see that is interesting is the higher the colour temperature the higher the lumens seems to be.
    Do you agree with this?
    My main reason for interest here is because at the moment the warmer bin LED's seem to be more popular.
    I wonder if there is a big gap in Lumens this will stay the case?
    Rob
    A warmer color temp is caused by a thicker layer of phosphor on the die, but that thicker layer blocks more light, so output should be less. Might read different on a lightmeter though.
    Last edited by cave dave; 07-29-2008 at 09:06 AM.
    Light is the activity of what is transparent - Aristotle

  17. #77
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    I would be very happy,if you guys were willing,to put together a few bare emitters on heatsinks to wire up and test output.
    That would be great. I wonder if my RC battery charger would work ... it's the DN G2Plus. If not, it shouldn't be hard to build a regulated supply that would be good for 1000 mA, and I'd gladly do that.

    I gave my R2-5 mode Pill to Precisionworks to keep as his source reference. If he wants to share it with you and then you send it back to him when you are done with it, its up to him.
    Sounds like a good idea - PM your address info & I'll send it out. MrGman does caution to run this pill only on primaries, and that Li-Ion will kill it instantly.

    the higher the colour temperature the higher the lumens seems to be. Do you agree with this?
    I do. This is probably a function of my meter, and most other lower cost meters - they are calibrated for daylight color temps, and warmer LEDs are closer to this than are the cooler ones.

    at the moment the warmer bin LED's seem to be more popular. I wonder if there is a big gap in Lumens this will stay the case?
    The McGizmo SunDrop is currently the state of the art in high CRI lights, using the Nichia 083 emitter. I measured 640 mA to make 46 lumens (the buck/boost converter changes that to 350 mA at the pill) and that is the price you currently pay for high CRI. As these continue to develop, you should see more output with lower current draw. When the US Government eliminates incans, which is coming soon, there will be a major effort for warmer or color corrected LED lighting - there's not a woman in the world who wants put on makeup using an unflattering light source
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  18. #78
    Flashaholic* orb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by cave dave View Post
    A warmer color temp is caused by a thicker layer of phosphor on the die, but that thicker layer blocks more light, so output should be less. Might read different on a lightmeter though.
    Makes sense

    PW: It is an interesting shift to the warmer colour temperatures we are seeing with LED's.
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  19. #79

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by orb View Post
    Out of interest what lumens do you measure on low? If you have the time.

    What I did see that is interesting is the higher the colour temperature the higher the lumens seems to be.
    Do you agree with this?
    Rob,

    I just measured my NS on low - I got 20.2 lumens, fresh charge on the battery. I also did some tests on high: 264 lumens at turn on, 233 after 60 seconds, 231 after 60.

    I'm not sure I agree completely about color temp and higher output - look at the two Nitecores in the table. However, it does seem possible that to get the temp lower that there is an added layer of filtering, and this would reduce the output.

    I prefer 6500, or more accurately D65, I really don't like the "warmer" color emitters. Part of this I'm sure is because of the business I'm in... :-)

    I also measured the Creemator's 4 levels, with fresh batteries: 2.6, 36, 114, and 339. That's quite a range!

    And speaking of color temperature, does anyone here know why it's really meaningless?

    William
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  20. #80
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by orb View Post
    What I did see that is interesting is the higher the colour temperature the higher the lumens seems to be.
    Do you agree with this?
    Rob
    Rob,

    Thats correct,for the most part.If you look at the binning for all major LED manufacturers max luminous flux available increases as color temp increases.
    Cree MC-E for example:
    Cool White 5000k-10000k 790lm max
    Neutral White 5000k-3700k 650lm max
    Warm White 3700k-2600k 605lm max
    The reason is the way the phospher converts blue to white.

    Thanks,
    Michael

  21. #81

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    precisionworks - a question: how do you have the meter probe attached to your sphere? In my tests I found that it was very important to have the sensor flush with the inside of the sphere, otherwise it picks up light from the styrofoam around it. I wonder if you did this if you wouldn't get better results.

    William
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  22. #82
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    William,

    An excellent question, as it took three attempts to get that part right.

    The first readings (very high) had the sensor probe atop a short tube, with the diameter of the sensor just fitting inside the tube. The total wall thickness of the sphere was directly below the tube, and it gathered light like there was no tomorrow. Not so good.

    The short tube came out & was replaced with a longer tube that extended slightly below the inside of the sphere. Flat black spray paint was applied to the inside. Those readings came out far too low.

    MrGman brought up the baffle idea, which I'd seen on the commercial sphere websites. Since my IS is a 'sealed unit', any modification had to be done without opening the IS. After considering different approaches, I decided to cut another tube at a 45° slant. The long point of the tube end faces the light port, so that the point provides shadowing for the inside of the tube. Flat white paint was used this time. The readings now are close ... my correction factor is 22, an ideal sphere would have a factor of 25 (using a 5" radius, squared). This is the setup currently in use.
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  23. #83

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    I spend 40 minutes during lunch writing up a big dissertation on how to solve this and most of the problems in the universe and when I clicked "submit" it all got lost. Got an error message and no post.

    Not writing it all again.

    If you guys want to get different colored LED sources and/or the Malkoff M60F or LF heads, I can test them and then you can have them back and see how well your units read the colors and if they are consistent. Decide on what it is you want and both get the same models so you can do head to head comparisons after I check them on the master IS. We can try and find from other people sending their light meters to you for comparison which ones work the best. I am sure that there is a reasonable meter out there that will work for most of what we are doing and getting good results, especially since we have come so far with believable readings from precisionworks unit so far.

  24. #84

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    wpb - nice work on getting that IS made. Interesting results, didn't expect the Creemator to blow away everything there! Milky did a great job. Glad you like it by the way =)

    Now I'm tempted to ask you folks if you'd be willing to let me ship some of my lights over to find out some real lumens values on these bad boys =)
    EDC: MilkySpit 1000-lumen Tri-MC-E L5
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  25. #85

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Hey, I'm happy to measure anything you want to send my way! Oh, did you want it returned too???

    Seriously, within reason I don't mind doing this, as long as it isn't too much of a hassle sending them back. That generally means Fedex for me, I dislike going to the post office.
    Live life to the max - drink scotch that is older than you are - if you can find it!

  26. #86

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Hehe, that'd be a sweet deal now wouldn't it? =D

    Cool, appreciate the offer! May end up sending a couple lights your way...how much is FedEx usually, for say a 2~3lb package?
    EDC: MilkySpit 1000-lumen Tri-MC-E L5
    In the car:
    MillerMods Quad-Cree 2D Mag At home: Mettee Tri-P7
    Missing somewhere =( :
    MilkySpit MC-E 2-stage UltraFire C1 SS 123 Keychain Light

  27. #87
    Flashaholic Aluminous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmc View Post
    how much is FedEx usually, for say a 2~3lb package?
    Here's what their websites seem to say are the estimates for shipping a 3lb package within the US:

    Fedex: $8.51 for ground 3-5 day, $26.17 for 2-day air
    UPS: $11.43 for ground 3-5 day, $30.28 for 2-day air
    USPS: $7.22 for parcel post (~6-day), $9.55 for priority mail (~2-day)

  28. #88
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Another option to consider is USPS Priority Mail. Sometime 2-3 day delivery, sometime 3-4 days. Tracking number included in price, just like UPS & Fedex. Up to 1# for $4.80, and they provide free cartons in a variety of sizes.

    USPS really rocks on dense, heavy items that will fit inside their Flat Rate Carton. Up to 70# for $9.80
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  29. #89

    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionworks View Post
    Another option to consider is USPS Priority Mail. Sometime 2-3 day delivery, sometime 3-4 days. Tracking number included in price, just like UPS & Fedex. Up to 1# for $4.80, and they provide free cartons in a variety of sizes.

    USPS really rocks on dense, heavy items that will fit inside their Flat Rate Carton. Up to 70# for $9.80
    Sorry, but USPS tracking is a joke, it's nothing like Fedex. No info until the item is delivered, if then. Fedex tracking shows where an item is and when it will be delivered, accurately.

    I've no objection to Priority Mail if they'll pick up the return package. If I have to go to the local post office that's at least 1 hour waiting in line, compared to 2-3 minutes at Fedex. I just don't have the time!
    Live life to the max - drink scotch that is older than you are - if you can find it!

  30. #90
    *Flashaholic* precisionworks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building an Integrating Sphere ...

    The tracking isn't the greatest as the package is on the way, but they send an immediate email to the sender as soon as the package arrives at the destination. I've never taken a package to the Post Office (except International that needs insurance) - as soon as the Click & Ship label is printed online, you request carrier pickup & it's all done.

    Of the 200+ packages sent USPS (eBay sales) none were ever lost or damaged.
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