SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 1)

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DM51

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SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

At long last, I have managed to get around to doing a series of shots of some of the various possible M6 rechargeable options. I have been planning to do this for a while, but something always seemed to get in the way.

Just getting all the gear together took some time.

M6R-Peli.jpg


M6R-All.jpg



Bulb options

The bulbs/LAs can be split into 2 groups: those that work with two Li-Ion cells in series (2s) and those that work with three Li-Ion cells in series (3s).

2s Li-Ions:
· MN15
· MN16
· MN20
· MN21
· Osram 64250
· WA 1111
· Philips 5761

3s Li-Ions:
· MN61
· HO-M6R
· WA 1185

The MNxx bulbs:
M6R-bulb1.jpg

M6R-bulb2.jpg



The 64250, 1111, 1185 and 5761 bulbs require a Fivemega MN bi-pin socket for the M6.
3 bi-pin bulbs in FM holders are shown here, together with the Lumens Factory HO-M6R:
M6R-bulb3.jpg



Below is a closer look at the bi-pin bulbs. The physical size of the glass envelope is important, as it determines whether or not the bulbs will actually fit through the reflector hole in the KT4 turbohead. The WA bulbs are small and compact, whereas the Philips and Osram bulbs are much larger. My 5761 did fit OK, but the Osram 64250 did not fit, so it could not be tested (I tried 3 of them, but they were all the same). With 5761 bulbs, there have been reports of variations in bulb sizes between one batch and another, so some may fit and some may not. The same may be true for 64250s.
M6R-bulb4.jpg


Those filaments are interesting too. If you compare the WA1111 and WA1185, you can immediately tell which is the higher-voltage 1185 – the filament coil is longer. The 64250 and 1111 filaments are almost exactly the same size and configuration, indicating very similar performance. The 5761 filament is a larger-diameter coil of thicker-gauge wire, and you can tell just by looking at it that it is going to absorb a lot more current than the others.


Battery options

The stock battery configuration for the M6 is 3s2p (3 series, 2 parallel) CR123A primary cells in the MB20 holder.
Rechargeable battery options available are as follows:

2s Li-Ion cell packs:
· 2s 18650 (mdocod's 2x18650 holder)
· 2s2p 14670 (Fivemega black (7.4V) 4x14670 holder + plastic insulator cap needed)
· 2s 'C' Li-Ions (with Fivemega 2C extender)

2s2p 14670 and 2s 18650 should in theory perform identically, having the same capacity, although the 2s 18650 will be a cheaper and better option. 2s 'C' gives increased capacity. However there is the disadvantage of the 2C extender lengthening the light by ~17 mm. The 5761 (and the MN21 Li-Ion option) should be used only with 2x 'C', as the current draw at ~5A is too much for 2s 18650 except in short bursts.

However, the increased discharge loads possible with Lithium Manganese (Emoli) cells, available in 18650 size, present a workable solution for M6 owners who want to use the 5761 and are not worried about short run-times.

3s Li-Ion cell packs:
· 3s2p RCR123 (in the SF stock MB20 holder)
· 3s 17670 (Fivemega 3x17670 holder)

The 3s 17670 set-up will out-perform the 3s2p RCR123s.

Here are the battery packs:

M6R-Batts2.jpg


Please note in the above pic: there is a home-made plastic cap (made by me) that fits over the +ve end of the 4x14670 holder. This is needed to prevent the +ve terminal shorting on the M6 body. It can be seen that the 3x17670 holder already has an insulating disc fitted.

The Fivemega 2C extender comes with a plastic sleeve to take the 2x 'C' Li-Ion cells, pictured above. Here is a photo of an M6 body fitted with the Fivemega 2C extender, next to a stock M6 body:

M6R-FM-2C-extn.jpg



One problem with comparison shots is trying to make sure the lights are all pointing at exactly the same spot in each successive photo. I decided I needed a solid cradle, similar in concept to a shooter's bench-rest, to hold the lights.

Mrs DM51 very kindly made an involuntary donation of a redundant chopping board for this purpose. When I realised the tremendous scientific (non-culinary) potential of this chopping board, I pointed out to her at some length that it had lethally unhygienic cracks in it, suggesting that from now on she should instead use one of her other boards, as they looked very much less conducive to salmonella, botulism, or other alarming and gruesome gastro-intestinal afflictions. Anyway, she has not said anything so far about the board going missing, and with a bit of luck she won't notice.

I glued a 45° wedge to it, and a right-angle join from a box to that, to act as a channel to lay the lights in. This is the result:

M6R-Cradle.jpg


Anchored firmly in place, it ensures each light points at the same spot.


Location

Adamlau did an excellent series of shots in an urban setting, so I chose a rural one.

SPHoriz.jpg



The target here is the large integrating tree on the right in the main photo. As marked on the photo, it is 135 yards (400 feet) from the "firing point". That is a good distance away, and it takes a powerful light to throw that far to any useful effect.

M6R-135yds-tree.jpg



BEAMSHOTS

First, here are pics of the MNxx bulbs that were tested. These are small versions of the photos, for ease of comparison side by side. Larger copies (600 x 460 pixels) can be found in post #2 – they may be useful for making "gif" rotating shots.

On the left in each case the bulb is running on primaries, and on the right you see the same bulb running on Li-Ions.

MN15
sMN15p.jpg
sMN15-2x18650.jpg


MN20
sMN20p.jpg
sMN20-2x18650.jpg


MN16
sMN16p.jpg
sMN16-2x18650.jpg


MN61
sMN61p.jpg
sMN61-3x17670.jpg


MN21
sMN21p.jpg
sMN21-2xC.jpg



In each case above, the primaries were 3s2p in the stock MB20 holder, with the exception of the MN61, which was running on 4s in a 2x18650-size Leef body. The rechargeable configurations were as shown.

Note that the MN16 seems brighter than the MN61 – this should not be the case. It is mostly because the MN16 is designed to run of 3 primaries, not 3s2p. With 2 banks of CR123As, there is far less voltage sag, so the MN16 is being overdriven. I also have to confess that the 4 cells used for the shot of the MN61 may not have been quite as fresh as the ones in the M6 bodies. That MN61 on primaries is the 1 shot in this series which is possibly suspect. All I can say is that it looked pretty bright; but the MN16 was brighter. See how the MN61 performed on Li-Ions, though!

Now it gets more interesting, as we add in some other bulbs. Time to settle a few scores!
Here are a few pairs that make interesting comparisons:

HO-M6R vs. MN20 (primaries)
sHO-M6R-3x17670.jpg
sMN20p.jpg



HO-M6R vs. MN16 (2x 18650)
sHO-M6R-3x17670.jpg
sMN16-2x18650.jpg



HO-M6R vs. MN21 (primaries)
sHO-M6R-3x17670.jpg
sMN21p.jpg



MN21 (primaries) vs. WA 1111
sMN21p.jpg
s1111-2x18650.jpg



MN21 (primaries) vs. MN61 (3x Li-Ions)
sMN21p.jpg
sMN61-3x17670.jpg



MN21 (2x 'C' Li-Ions) vs. 5761 (2x 'C' Li-Ions)
sMN21-2xC.jpg
s5761-2xC.jpg



WA 1111 vs. WA 1185
s1111-2x18650.jpg
s1185-3x17670.jpg



5761 vs. WA 1185
s5761-2xC.jpg
s1185-3x17670.jpg



Before finishing with the beamshots, I would stress again that the target is a very large tree, about 80 feet high, and it is a fair distance away – 135 yards, or 400 feet! All the photos above are with the camera on ~2x zoom. Just to illustrate this, here is what the WA 1185 beam actually looked like without the zoom:

1185-wide.jpg



Comments

You may already have formed your own conclusions from the photos above. Below are some of my thoughts.

The first thing that must be realised is that the high-output (HOLA) Surefire MN-series bulbs used with Li-Ion batteries will suffer a reduced life.

As you can see from the comparison shots above of the MN16, MN61 and MN21, they are much brighter when running on Li-Ions than they are on primaries.

This is nice, but unfortunately it comes at a cost, which is a shorter bulb life. The greater the increase in brightness, the more drastic the effect on bulb life. The MN15 and MN20 will probably do OK as they aren't driven so hard, but those 3 HOLAs are not going to last very long at all. The cost of running your M6R on Li-Ions with Surefire HOLAs at around $30 a pop may end up being as expensive as feeding it with primaries. Sorry guys, but there's no way round that one.

The lifetime of bi-pin bulbs is better documented. When over-driven, as here, these bulbs will have a lifespan in the region of ~10 hours, but they are a lot cheaper - $9 for a WA1111, and only $5 for a WA1185. And a mere $3 for a 64250 - if you can find one that fits!

Star ratings given below for practicality are awarded for various reasons, the principal one being anticipated bulb life.


Bulb performance and ratings

The MN15 confirmed its value and utility. It draws an economical 1.15 amps. I have been using it quite a lot, but until now I had not done a comparison at distance, and it is at distance that quality shows up. You only have to look at the photos above to see how well it performed. As can be seen here, and contrary to reports made elsewhere, it works well on 2x Li-Ions. Either way, with primaries or rechargeables, the MN15 is a very good option for anyone requiring a working light with long run-time. It only gets 1 star here for output, but that tree is a long way off, and the standard in this shootout is very high indeed. There can be no doubt that this is an extremely useful bulb.
Output………….. ð
Run-time……….. ððððð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :)


The MN20 is a fine all-round bulb, drawing 2.45 amps. It is a good general purpose bulb for the M6 for both primaries and Li-Ions. With this bulb, you have enough light for almost all uses.
Output………….. ðð
Run-time…….…. ðððð
Practicality……. ððð
Overall…………... :)


The MN16 gives a startlingly better performance than the MN20, beating it on output. It draws 2.6 amps, so it can be expected to be brighter, and it is. However, it is clearly over-driven on 2x Li-Ions, and its life will suffer severely.
Output………….. ððð
Run-time……….. ðððð
Practicality……. ðð
Overall…………... :caution:


The MN21 is an amazing bulb, but unless you have an endless supply of CR123A primaries, it really isn't very practical. It draws 4.9 amps. People probably fire it up from time to time to amaze their friends, but even for that purpose there are more impressive options. Using it with the FM extension and 2x 'C' Li-Ions was spectacular. However this is over-driving it hard, and bulb life is likely to be very short. From cold, I found it required double or triple-clicking to start it. For all these reasons I do not consider it a practical option.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :green:


The Philips 5761, like the MN21, is a high-current bulb, drawing 5.4 amps. It needs the FM 2C extension, as it should not be used with smaller Li-Ion cells than 'C' size. There are reports of some batches of 5761s being too large to fit through the KT4 reflector hole; certainly, it is a close fit. The filament sits up higher than the WA lamps, so ~1mm of shims are required on the base of the bi-pin holder. As if all that wasn't enough, it needs several clicks to start. Unless you intend to use LiMn (Emoli) cells in a 2x18650 holder and you don't mind extremely short run-times, it is not worth considering this bulb for the M6 (in my opinion, anyway).
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :sick2:


The MN61 is dazzling. On 3x Li-Ions it outperforms the MN21 on primaries. However, it is seriously over-driven in this configuration (3 amps measured) and there have been several reports of it instaflashing. Even where this does not happen, bulb life is going to be short and consequently expensive. Sadly, it does not seem to be a very realistic or reliable option. On output it is really 4½ stars, above 4 but not up to 5.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ððð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :caution:


The WA 1111 is a great bulb. With 2x Li-Ions I measured it drawing 3.6 amps. Its output is very similar to the MN21 on primaries, as I have shown in another thread, and it uses less (and free) power. It is a very good option indeed, with useful run-time on 2x18650. It is no surprise how good this is. It is a very fine combination for the M6.
Output………….. ðððð
Run-time….……. ðððð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :devil:


Some people are lucky enough to have an Osram 64250 that will fit into a KT4; however mine did not. I would expect it to perform almost identically to the WA 1111 (cheaper, too – it is $3 instead of $9). If you are really skilled at grinding glass down with a dremel, you might be able to shave the sides of these bulbs down just enough to fit, and then you will be in business!


The Lumens Factory HO-M6R was the best surprise of this shootout. It draws 2.1 amps from 3x Li-Ions – that is Lumens Factory's own figure, and it proved accurate on measurement. This means it can be used safely with 3s2p RCR123 Li-Ions in the stock MB20 holder; however it will perform better with 3x17670s. The HO-M6R has always been described as being "somewhere between the MN20 and MN21 in output". Well, we can now officially scratch that description as inadequate. It stomped the MN20, and it gave the MN21 a very good run for its money. It was a far closer thing than I thought it would be. It has a tighter beam, and I think it actually out-throws the MN21. Throw is a feature of Lumens Factory bulbs, and this is a superb thrower. I knew it was good, but it took this comparison to show just how good it really is.
Output………….. ððð
Run-time……….. ðððð
Practicality……. ððððð
Overall…………... :D


Finally, as expected, and as can be seen from the photos, the WA 1185 with 3x17670 was the winner in the power contest. Drawing 3.3 amps, it matches the 5761 for output, and is a much more practical alternative if sheer power is what you want.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :devil:


I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.
 

DM51

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Larger-size copies of the photos in post #1

Rotating "gif" image, courtesy of JetskiMark:

M6R_Options.gif



Still photos:

MN15p.jpg


MN15-2x18650.jpg


MN20p.jpg


MN20-2x18650.jpg


MN16p.jpg


MN16-2x18650.jpg


MN61p.jpg


MN61-3x17670.jpg


MN21p.jpg


MN21-2xC.jpg


HO-M6R-3x17670.jpg


1111-2x18650.jpg


5761-2xC.jpg


1185-3x17670.jpg
 
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ttran97

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

:drool: :twothumbs

Well done! I can't even imagine how long it took to do all this. Make it a sticky! You have the power...
 

lightsandknives

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Nicely done! I've been wanting an M6 for some time but didn't want to burn through that many primaries. This is certainly making me rethink the M6!

Where's the best place to get the WA 1111 bulb??
 
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brighterisbetter

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

:wow: :goodjob::kewlpics: This will be a big help for not only myself but for many others who bug the old-school members for free advice. Just saved yourself a whole bunch of PM replies by creating this DM51. Excellent work as always. STICKY!!!!!

EDIT- BTW, that's quite a collection you've got there too!!! :thumbsup:
 
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CLHC

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Awesome! Thanks for sharing!
 

Patriot

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

:wow:

That must have taken you forever to put together!

Totally amazing thread for all the M6 options. I'm still flabbergasted. :faint:
 

cqbdude

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

You Sir...Is my hero...

Thank you for the awesome comparison...:twothumbs

I already have the 3x17670 / MN61 combo..now I cant wait to get the 1185's I ordered...
 

Team Member

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

I´m stunned..

That first pic just made my day. A wild guess, a Peli 1500 case...?

And the rest then...omg...

I don´t have enough words so I´m just using these silly smileys.

:twothumbs:clap::rock::bow::goodjob:
 

gallagho

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Awsome post! Thanks!

Look what ya made me do, put my name down for a FiveMega holder! :sold:
 
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mwaldron

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Awesome Job DM51! You have consolidated a lot of useful information into 1 great and wonderfully illustrated post!

The 2x18650 + MN15 and 3x17670's + WA1185 seems to be the tools I'll have in my box depending on the situation.

I may need more M6 to play with, 1 doesn't seem to be enough... :naughty:
 

greenLED

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Dooood!! Excellent work.
(I see I'm not the only Lock'nLock fan around, BTW.)
 

Nos

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

what a great post, details, overview..... WOW!


:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs
 

EV_007

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Excellent overview of the awesome light.

Having the guilt free comparison is very useful.
 

generic808

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Great review! This is just the thing I was looking for! Thank you very much for your time and effort in compiling this info. I was thinking I might go with the 3x17670 HO-M6R set-up, but now it is certain I will be going this route. Well, that's if we get the 50 pre-orders :eek:

If this review wasn't enough for every M6 owner to get on FM's list, I don't know what is.

BTW what would your guesstimate on runtime be with the 3x17670 HO-M6R?
 

JetskiMark

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Epic thread and effort. Thank you for your time.

....Mrs DM51 very kindly made an involuntary donation of a redundant chopping board for this purpose. When I realised the tremendous scientific (non-culinary) potential of this chopping board, I pointed out to her at some length that it had lethally unhygienic cracks in it, suggesting that from now on she should instead use one of her other boards, as they looked very much less conducive to salmonella, botulism, or other alarming and gruesome gastro-intestinal afflictions. Anyway, she has not said anything so far about the board going missing, and with a bit of luck she won't notice.....

That was funny.

....The target here is the large integrating tree on the right in the main photo...

Was that IT recently calibrated?

I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.

That was a major understatement.
 

BSBG

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

Great job! Must bookmark this thread now :D.

I was bored at work the other day and made a spreadsheet of all the options with current draw, run time and output on various cells and developed a ranking system combining RT and output. My conclusion was identical to yours - the WA111 or 64250 (mine fit) may be the best all around option for an M6. And I need another M6 to keep everything set up and ready to go.

But I still love the 1185 in any host :party:
 

JetskiMark

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Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT

I made an animated gif. The images are in the same order as they were posted. I made each frame 2.5 seconds which seems to be what most viewers prefer.

Edit: Removed image to reduce page load time since it is now copied in the second post.
 
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