Your Input Please on New Knife Design

We are looking for constructive critiquing here. Somehow we're not entirely sure this is the look/design that is going to appeal to the mass tactical crowd and George and I would really appreciate any of you who are seriously into tacticals having a good look at the knife and letting us know if that is something you would purchase or if there are things that could be changed to make it more appealing.



George has spent a great deal of time, money and materials on this project, it is going to move forward but we would prefer to have design elements tweaked/changed before we go into full blown production.

Many of you have looked at the photo but there have only been a couple people come back and say anything. Your suggestions would be appreciated. If it's something that does not have mass appeal we'd like to know about that now rather than later

The handle is not going to be carbon fibre, our supply of a royal blue, cherry red, green/black combo and blue/black combo G10 has finally arrived.

The 19C27 knife steel has arrived, as well as all the fancy screws, titanium etc. It will have a dual thumb stud, the bolster will be angled in the opposite direction because it doesn't work right the way it is now. George is planning on cutting the G10 short of the titanium to have a relief all around the edge. It will also have a pocket clip.

Look forward to some feedback from you knife enthusiasts.

Thanks for your time, Carol :wave:
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Well it "looks" strong - but a bit ugly, sorry I would not buy it.
The handle looks nice but I like recurve blades...think Zero Tolerance 0301 and there you have the blade shape I like.
Make something like that and I would be interested.
Also while I am at it...think flipper, I love the XM18 flipper, but could not justify a second mortage to own one.

maybe a custom knife with a flipper and a recurve.

Imagine a XM18 with a zero tolerance blade and then you would have me-but with your own design of course...

I was looking at some flippers yesterday and they have me thinking.

I want some recurve on this one but if I go too far it will be difficult to sharpen with my grinding equipment.

You may be on the right track. I will have to look up the XM 18 to see what it has that could help.

My problem is that I have been making traditional styles for a long time and have trouble escaping from that background.

George

blade shape reminds me of the Newt
http://blog.voxknives.com/#post97
http://www.voxknives.com/gallery.htm

top front area looks a bit off, and the end of the handle looks a bit unpolished. some of those strange angles just need to be addressed.

i do like the blade length to handle length ratio, i like knives that come as close to 1-to-1 as possible, e.g. a 4 7/8" blade and a 5" handle.

i would be against cutting the G-10 back from the handle, leaving a gap around the edges, typically this is a recipe for blisters after extended usage.

sharpened upper swedge would be a plus.

add a choil (or make it bigger).

add a lanyard hole.


just my 2 cents as a knife enthusiast, and not an expert by any means. but form and function are both things i try to always carefully consider.

In my opinion the tactical folder market is very fickle. New steel, new blade grind, new blade shape, new locking mechanism, new blade coatings, new handle materials...
Some of the major trends tough center around a slim profile , especially slim handle, so that it carries easily with a pocket clip. Quick opening, though the opinions on mechanical opening devices are pretty polarized. Myself I hate flippers, and assisted opening, whereas others swear by it (as if that box I'm going to carve open cares how fast my knife comes out of the handle).

As for the picture of the prototype:

I find the blade odd-looking. Not necessarily a bad thing, but in the tactical market its usually form over function. It has to look cool. To me the blade looks a bit like a rounded out tanto style. The clipped off front/top of the blade is commonly seen in some more "traditional" straight edge, hard cornered tantos. The angle is just different. The spine of the blade is uniquely shaped, is that to make it fit/grip well when closed?

The way the G10 comes together with the metal part of the handle right at the indent is a cause of concern for me. A lot of the pressure and torque from use will be centered around there. So I'd be afraid of it peeling away down there in hard use.

I can't really see some of the other "important" features of the knife form just that picture. Looking down from the top how fat is the handle? I can imagine what the other side likely looks like being a frame lock, but I can't be sure. But I guess the most important feature can never be seen but felt.

Flat grind is definitely popular in blades this year. But really I'd say for blade design stick with what you do well, or try something innovative. Don't get stuck sitting in the middle of the road.

Hopefully most of this makes sense, I've never been able to adopt english knife slang very well. I find myself typing in the traditional Japanese terms and then thinking no one will have a clue of what I'm talking about. I'll think on some more specific suggestions.

To be honest, I thought this was a folding hunting knife; instead of a tactical folder. Mainly due to the blade shape.

Will there be grooves cut in the rear portion of the spine of the blade?

The full-length cutting edge is not ideal on a tactical folder. It should have a choil.

The forward, lower, portion of the handle should have grooves as well.

I agree that G10 is better than carbon fiber on a knife that'll get used. Is the G10 bead-blasted?

Thank you everyone.

This is a departure from my regular style of knives and as such it is difficult for me to avoid drifting back into the traditional blade shapes.

The market that I am looking to sell to is the younger 30 year old urban male. This individual may be a knife collector, policeman, fireman, construction worker or such where a heavy duty must not fail knife is needed. As such this frame is designed to accomodate a number of blade designs and possibly a glass break insert for rescue work.

The question is what blade shapes will appeal to that market?

The handle shape can be modified to flare at the front with some notches to prevent hands sliding up onto the blade. The angle of the bolster will be reversed to take that bolster / handle scale junction out of the action area. G10 scales also are more suited to texturing for better grip.

One thing that I have noticed is that blades with less belly are more common in the genre.

George

Gentlemen, below is a prototype that was worked up today to try and incorporate some of the suggestions I have received the last couple days.

The grind lines don't show well on a scan so I hit them with black marker and the blade will be reduced by approx 1/8" along the top.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts,

Thanks for your input, George

george tichbourne said:

Gentlemen, below is a prototype that was worked up today to try and incorporate some of the suggestions I have received the last couple days.

The grind lines don't show well on a scan so I hit them with black marker and the blade will be reduced by approx 1/8" along the top.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts,

Thanks for your input, George

Click to expand...

I like it. A lanyard hole would be a nice touch. Perhaps a thumb-guide filed into the handle to help the thumb instinctively hit the thumbstud.

Is the clip going to be mounted tip-up or tip-down, or both?

That looks nice so far. Definitely has good angles.
Looks like the handle sticks up a bit on the top, how well will the thumb fit up on the spine of the blade like that?

I have to say I like the look of the second one much better. The original photo looks to be a nice design however the blade shape in my opinion simply "looks" odd. The first design looks to be more of a custom and something you would see an old collector using. I am sure it is strong and has a reason for the shape however the reality is that many of todays customers buy on looks first.

Not very many will ever use a knife to its limits and as such they have no idea as to the functional designs of blades. By your description of the market you wish to appeal to I will say I fit nicely into that market. I work with over 900 officers and even more if you add firemen and medics. Almost all of them carry a knife or even two. I have yet to see one of them carry a very expensive knife however they do put much thought into their purchase none the less.

In patrol blade strength is critical as we usually end up using these knives for prying open window screens, digging bullets out of various items for evidence collection, screwdrivers, and many more things you really should not use a blade for.....none the less they all still do it. Most recently I used mine to cut some wrapped wire surrounding a fence on a building we searched. Yes the edge took a beating but the blade worked for what I needed it to do.

So my first suggestion for the market you mentioned would be blade strength and simple clean lines. Very fancy stuff does nothing for the users you mentioned however a thick simple blade design will appeal greatly. Most of my co-workers ,myself included, would rather use a frame lock. This is not because we know anything about the better linerlocks out there but more so simply because we have had many liner locks fail in the field. Yes I know liner locks can be made just as strong if done right however again none the less I can tell you the majority of my co-workers all use frame locks.

Bigger thumb studs or flippers for opening are nice simply as most times we wear gloves. The gloves are thin and strong yet still make it hard to work the smaller knives at times. A good pocket clip is also very important as many officers will try to clip the knife to their thick duty belt and after time the clips will fail. Often this is due to the stress of the bigger duty belt and I have had a few screws to strip out. Many will ask why do officers simply not use their pants pockets.....well in my case it is very hard to get to a knife clipped in my pocket. It can be done however my duty holster rides right on top of my right pocket and my radio holster is covering the left side. I have to push stuff over to the side and "fish" the knife out of my pocket. I have yet to find a way to securely attatch to my duty belt so for now I keep using my pocket and "fishing" each time I reach for my knife.

Here lately I have resorted to keeping a small fixed blade tucked between my vest and trauma plate. The plate fits inside a neat little pocket right in the middle of my chest. I simply reach inside my top shirt between my vest and shirt and I have my knife within easy reach.

Sorry so long winded here however I do like your designs and hope that you can produce a product you will be happy with as well as your customers. I will keep this thread in mind and ask around at work for other suggestions.

Nothing is carved in steel yet but there are several considerations to look at yet.

Pocket/belt clip should be made up of titanium for durability, mounted both ways with large screws....probably have to make this part up myself to get the size this knife needs.

Addition of a glass break at the end of the handle as an option is planned but when added the thong hole will not be able to be added as well.

The frame lock design can be delivered with or without handle scales.

I am concerned with the acceptability of this particular blade as a rescue knife...probably would be more acceptable with a square ended blade with a seat belt cutter hook instead.

Back to the drawing board , thanks for the input.
George

Nice!

What are we talkin' about as far as blade length goes? I hope it's 3" or under! :thumbsup:

The first one will be a 4" blade then a 3" and a 5" will follow.

These urban tactical designs will exist along side my 2" and 3" gentleman's folders which I have been making for several years.

It might take a year or so to get all three of the urban tactical lines into production.

George

Watching this thread. I have one of the first production items.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Sounding good, Urban Folder YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to jump in like a little kid here and give a to the possibility of a 5" folder. Not many of those around (that are of good quality).
I think you're definitely on the right track with that latest one. I do think perhaps you're mixing in the tactical (tacti-cool?) folder with the rescue folder. Two different products for two different markets imho. Tacticals are aimed squarely at young males and are often form over function. Rescue blades for professionals, like you've kind of described above, are usually more function over form. My opinon at least. :shrug:

A lot of the tacticals seem to be heavily influenced by Japanese design. The American tanto craze from a few years back for example. And now I see some designs that are starting to mimick a shobu zukuri style or iris leaf blade.

With the "square ended blade" I'm assuming something more like what is found in a dive knife? Sort of like what's shown here?
I've seen plenty of rescue folders with a sheepsfoot type blade but none with a tip like that. Having a nice solid but still small tip for what Robo was describing is an interesting idea. (to me at least)

The specialty designed blades for rescue were a great idea and I can see how the form could be used in many situations. I really thought I would see more of that style (blunt tip,glass breaker,seatbelt hook....etc: ) carried by medics or even some police. Oddly enough in 11 years on duty and making hundreds of firemen,medics and other police as friends I have seen maybe 3 who carried that style knife.

If I had to guess I would say probably 60 percent of my co-workers carry a small tough folder while the others carry a fixed blade.

I like the term you used in saying a "gentlemans folder" as I never really thought much about it however I can see where that term comes from. The first design shown reminds me of that term where the second one seems more of a utility type or duty style. In spite of all the differences we may have in personal choices for carry it is nice to see a maker involve our group in a decision such as this. Maybe we can help you with a few ideas however the end result should be a style you are comfortable with in producing.

I spoke with several other officers today and out of about 10 co-workers I found 3 who carried a half serrated blade design. Every one of them had knives under 60 dollars with one exception who carried a Benchmade 942. None of them carried an auto and none of them used a lanyard. I never really paid much attention until now however I find myself looking at every medic and officer I see just to see what they are using.....

I went out to a local knife shop last evening and spent a great deal of time talking with the owner and looking around. A lot of the "tactical" patterns were conventional blade grinds with sharpened clips and a little shaping on the spine. Tanto-ish blades were in the minority, even among the Chinese produced product.

Rescue type knives were there in very basic patterns, glass break and seatbelt hook and no real blade, all under $60, perhaps I should forget about this market segment.

Reflecting back on the visit, nothing at all really jumped out screaming "take me home, I am TACTICAL".

This is more difficult to get a handle on than I hoped for.

George

george tichbourne said:

This is more difficult to get a handle on than I hoped for.

George

Click to expand...

Your pic in post #8 is actually a good place to start from, if you want to enter the tactical market. I agree that a high-end Rescue folder is not a good idea. Such knives have traditionally been inexpensive.

Yep, tanto was the craze a few years back, now if you say tanto in some knife forums you're flamed and chastised :laughing:. The tactical market is very fickle. The shobu zukuri is much more subtle, but being a sword guy, I see it's influence in a few of the "cutting edge" designers lately.

Lots of cheap stuff out there. I've also found that there are very few brick and mortar stores that have good selections of knives. To see most of the best stuff you have to crawl the web, to hold it you have to get out to big gun/ outdoor shows.
Just keep lookin' at stuff. I'm sure you'll find the flow of the market eventually even if you decide not to go swim in it.

I kind of feel odd being that I seem to be one of the few people talking here. Although I stand by my opinions I'm definitely not the only opinion out there. :thinking: Sorry if I seem over-bearing etc. in my posting here.

Anyway Spyderco pretty much single handedly moved the tactical folder idea into teh mainstream. The Spyderco Endura with its slim profile and pocketclip, plus the round hole and ability to "flick" the blade out in essence helped start it all. Spyderco is still at the top of it's game. (mention tanto in Spyderco forums and you're toast by the way) One new thing for spydercos of late are flat ground blades.

Another personal favorite company for me is Benchmade. Also of note for me is Kershaw/ Zero Tolerance as well as some great designs for the Boker company from Chad Los Banos. CRKT also has a soft spot in my heart.
All of the above dabble in the $40 knives but have more limited runs of stuff that goes toward $200+. Some offer even higher end Auto stuff for LEO/ Military and collector edition sprint runs that go even higher in prices... all still made primarily by machines.

Then there's more limited run/ custom makers. Chris Reeve, Strider, Emerson, etc. Each has its own little thing which makes their products unique. More attention to detail, sometimes a bit of innovation that the rest of the market below will follow or copy for a time. I've never gotten too involved in this part of the market.

Every once in awhile I get really rough on a knife, where the possibility of permanently ruining the blade is a good possibility. So I just can't carry $200+ blades. The possibility of breaking is the same with a $70 as it is a $300 knife, the metal can only take so much and no amount of money spent can defy the laws of physics. Sometimes you don't have the right tool but the job has to be done.

So breaking into the market does take some consideration. I don't see directly walking into the mass market, that's the domain of mass production. And if you look into the high end market you may not like the atmosphere, there are definitely some crazies to deal with out there. Some people start a name for themselves by designing a blade for a production company. A collaboration with Spyderco for example brings a designer much exposure to the market. But with that you're dealing with the cut-throat corporate world .

I think the rescue blade is a much smaller but more enjoyable niche to deal with. Generally professional users rather than collectors, teenagers, fanboys which "seem" to dominate the tactical folder crowd.

As Robo said, serrations are pretty common, especially for those looking for a more rescue style blade. Glassbreakers, seatbelt cutters, blunt tips, chisel/ prying tips are all great ideas to look at. Rescue blades generally have beefier blade grinds and thicker handles. Function over form.

But again these generally won't be sold for too high a price, because they will be abused; no matter how good a knife is, it's only as tough as the metal it's made out of. Prying, digging, hacking, load bearing and loosing the knife alltogether do happen. It's about maximization. Getting the best performance at the best price.

Spyderco, definitely have good rescue blades, and Benchmade both has more specialized rescue tools not much blade, yep. Another interesting rescue design is a folder but again not much knife, the Boker, CLB designed Res-com. SAK rescue tool also loks pretty snazzy.


A final bit of thought (I can go on and on when I'm talking about certain things if you haven't noticed) would be simply leaving you with one of my favorite knife websites. I do 25 times more "window shopping" here than actual buying, but they are on the front line of the industry. New Graham will give some good ideas of the production enthusiast market. Maybe someone else can chime in with ideas for watching the more limited designers.

Personally I now look to blades for wilderness functionality in recreation; food preparation (a ~5" folder with a flat grind would be so great for this) & survival (incredibly rough use from time to time).
First aid in my work (scissors are generally best I've found). And general rescue for when I'm going to recreation or work; seat belt cutters, glass breakers.
I'm not involved in Law enforcement anymore and I've gotten over my delusion of blades as a primary means of self defense. So that's my angle on all of this. Hope my take on things is somewhat useful to you, George and Carol. And not too controversial for the rest of you. :wave: