CR123 vs AA

I'm new around here and been reading up on a lot of things. There seems to be quite a few post around here regarding CR123 vs AA format EDC flashlights. Kinda reminds me of Nikon vs Canon, Sig vs Glock and so on. Picked up my first sorta high end flashlight, a Fenix P2D and want to start picking up a few more lights. Before I decide if i'll stick with the 1x123 form factor,can you folks school me on the +/- of either cell. I know lithium cells are lighter, more dense power source, also have better cold weather performance and very long shelf life. Your input would be appreciated. Thanks.

My take is every bonus you get with the CR123 cells other than size format (shorter and fatter) can be had in the AA format, plus a TON more flexibility with your choices.

Although a CR123 lithium primary has similar W*h to a AA lithium primary, it has a larger surface area and significantly lower voltage. This means a bigger light and slightly less runtime... You'll squeak more W*h out of a CR123 with a 3.5 V LED light, all other things the same.

You can get CR123's for under $1 apiece if you're willing to buy 20 or more, E2L's cost more, even at the big box stores, no matter how many you buy.

The best thing about AA's is the readiness to accept standard AA batteries when the time comes.

Buying locally, L91's are $1.67-$2.50 each. CR123's are $2.50-$5 each. Buying name brand online, L91's are $1 each in bulk where CR123's are $1.75 each (both at the cheapest). Only off-brand CR123's can be found for $1 each. A L91 has slightly more watt hours than a CR123

For versatility, in CR123 you are limited to primaries, and a rechargable version which is of higher voltage and less energy. This means the rechargable version might not workin all lights. 3 chemistries total.

For AA, you have a choice of at least 6 different chemistries, from 14500 cells for high voltage (and more capacity than RCR123) though L91 primaries (longer shelf life than CR123's, and can be used in numerous devices other than flashlights), cheap and safe NiMH, all the way down to alkaline or super heavy duty carbon zinc cells in a pinch. Except for 14500's, all the other formats are interchangable with every manner of light and electronics, which is extremely useful for an emergency storage. One stash can power everything you own, making logistics MUCH easier.

You won't find a Novatac or HDS or Ra Clicky that runs on a single AA battery. That's reason enough for me to like CR123 format. There are lots of other very cool lights that use CR123 or RCR123. So if you truly limit yourself to AA format lights you are going to be missing out on some great lights. Sure you can buy a 2xAA tube for an HDS but it costs more than the light. I finally got swayed toward buying some AA lights (most of which also use 14500 3.6 volt Li-ions also) and am glad to have both for many reasons. I think if you stick around here for long you'll find plenty reason to own both these 2 very popular battery formats. I'm sure you will hear more on this and you can argue it at length as it has been many times before. It's really personal preference in most cases but in the real spirit of CPF when you have to ask between A or B just 'BUY THEM BOTH'

And :welcome:

matrixshaman said:

just 'BUY THEM BOTH'

And :welcome:

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Thanks for the welcome matrixshaman, I haven't been here long but that's one thing I'm seeing a lot of. I just might buy into both formats but will start with the 1xCR123 lights first.

Marduke said:

Buying locally, L91's are $1.67-$2.50 each. CR123's are $2.50-$5 each.

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Man, I wish I lived where you are.

Here it's the opposite; L91's are $4.50 each ($17.97 for a 4 pack) and CR123's are $1.99 each (2 for $3.99).

EDIT: I was out today (10/04) and found 4-packs of L91's for $12.73, which is a great price here in Canada.

I like the size of the CR123 lights and see there are a lot of cool lights out there in the CR123 form factor, but I hate the idea of feeding primaries into them all the time. What is really holding me back from getting into CR123 lights is the lack of capacity of the Li-Ion and LiFePO4 RCR123 cells.

Here's an example of CR123's for 1.10 each shipped to your door, using your CPF discount.

https://www.4sevens.com/product_info.php?cPath=53&products_id=552

Here's an example of aa's 60 for about $30 shipped to your door
http://www.batteryjunction.com/mn-1500-60pcs.html

I was comparing the cost of Lithium primaries... but the point is well taken.

I tried posting this yesterday, but the server wouldn't let me.
Welcome to CPF paintballdad.
In years past there was a larger difference between lights that used CR123's and AAs, with the CR123 lights having a significant advantage. These days I think the CR123's still have an advantage, but not as much as they used to.
To me the most annoying problem with the lithium cell lights is that there seems to be a penalty if you want to use rechargables. The most common rechargable chemistry for lithium batteries is a cell producing 3.7volts. Some lights designed for cr123's [nominal 3.0v] can't use 3.7v, or just turn the extra voltage into heat, shortening the runtime. Some cr123 lights can't fit rechargeables. There are also dangers with some lithium rechargeable cells, although careful use greatly minimizes them.

Advances in LEDs and circuitry make some of the newer AA lights perform very similarly to CR123 lights. AAs have a great advantage in availability and flexibility. If you need lithium for cold weather use, long term storage [without leaking!], or longer runtime you can get AA lithiums. The lithium AA cells are about the same price as the cr123 cells, and Energizer [the only AA lithium primary source] is comming out with an alternative lithium AA cell, which may give a lower cost option.

Another AA advantage, IMHO, is that the best rechargeable battery available now are the LSD [low self-discharge] NiMH AAs, although I've heard great things about the 18650 sized lithiums [twice the size of CR123s].

Marduke said:

Buying locally, L91's are $1.67-$2.50 each. CR123's are $2.50-$5 each. Buying name brand online, L91's are $1 each in bulk where CR123's are $1.75 each (both at the cheapest). Only off-brand CR123's can be found for $1 each. A L91 has slightly more watt hours than a CR123

For versatility, in CR123 you are limited to primaries, and a rechargable version which is of higher voltage and less energy. This means the rechargable version might not workin all lights. 3 chemistries total.

For AA, you have a choice of at least 6 different chemistries, from 14500 cells for high voltage (and more capacity than RCR123) though L91 primaries (longer shelf life than CR123's, and can be used in numerous devices other than flashlights), cheap and safe NiMH, all the way down to alkaline or super heavy duty carbon zinc cells in a pinch. Except for 14500's, all the other formats are interchangable with every manner of light and electronics, which is extremely useful for an emergency storage. One stash can power everything you own, making logistics MUCH easier.

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These are good points.
In my experience, L91 in large quantities of about 100 cells, run $1 each.
I saw some 123s in in the same quantities for about $0.80.

I don't think 123 have any advantages over L91.

Take Fenix L2D, you can run the stupid thing on:

1. L91
2. NiMH
3. Alk
4. Carbon Zinc
5. ?

My Surefire 9P, nice lite but will only run on 123s and 17500. M60 module will blow up on RCR123s.

I appreciate everyone's input. I've noticed in some of the reviews regarding 1xAA lights that when running alkaline or NiMH cells they don't have the same max output as when running lithium AA cells. So wouldn't the comparison to CR123 primary cells be unfair. Having the option to use the other chemistries is nice but I feel that I'm not getting the most out the lights unless I use lithium primaries and the price difference would then be a wash between the two. And also regarding 14500 cells, AA cells are rated at 1.2 or 1.5 volts and the 14500's are 3.7v. How can these replace alkaline, NiMH or lithiums cells in LED flashlights when they put out more voltage? And are all 1xAA lights able to take these cells? So many things to learn......:thinking:.

And the confusion finally sets in.................

Some AA lights can take the 14500 cell type, it depends on the light.

Also, in most lights you get the same brightness with L91's as NiMH, just more runtime.

From a bang for the buck standpoint, NiMH AA's just can't be beat.

paintballdad said:

also regarding 14500 cells, AA cells are rated at 1.2 or 1.5 volts and the 14500's are 3.7v. How can these replace alkaline, NiMH or lithiums cells in LED flashlights when they put out more voltage?

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IMO it was the introduction of regulated LED flashlights that gave AA's a chance to compete with CR123s. Most LED flashlights and LED upgrades have built-in regulators (while most incandescents do not) and it is the regulator that gives you flexibility. Within the working limits of the regulator, it will simply draw less current at higher voltages.

paintballdad said:

And are all 1xAA lights able to take these cells?

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Not exactly. The best candidates are lights where the vendor uses the same circuitry in a variety of products designed for a range of battery voltages. In these cases the regulator will usually have no trouble running at either 1.2 or 3-ish volts. In other cases the light will work but some brightness levels won't work properly. As an example (going from memory here) Fenix uses the same head for 1AA, 2AA and 1xCR123 lights so the 1.2-3V range is covered, but if you put in a 3.7v rechargeable Li-ion cell then the low range is brighter than it should be.

Personally, I think the world needs some CR123-sized NiMH rechargeables (ie short fat AAs), 'cause the real advantage of CR123 over AA is that 2xAA flashlights end up being just a bit too long and ugly. I still can't bring myself to buy a Fenix L2D or LD20 even though in most respects it is a fantastic light.

paintballdad said:

So many things to learn...

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Yep, it never ends. Just a warning, it usually takes between 1 and 2 months to go from :

:welcome:

to :



, and then a couple of more months until your first :

Bridgman, thanks for the insight. As far as and . Been there
done that. As you can tell from my screen name that's my other hobby. And it isn't exactly an affordable activity. Played quite a bit too till recently when my right knee started to hurt and for a time was a little swollen for about 4 months. That's when I started shooting real guns again and stumbled into CPF from the sigforum. This place and sigforum has some real folks. Friendly and helpful and a bit loony perhaps.

I might just stick with the CR123 format as I will be picking up a 18650 light to complement the 1 cell lights and I can always use 2xCR123's as backup to it.

Gotta stop thinking now..........

Nurse can I have my medication now.

Sounds good. One other benefit of lithium-based batteries (ie the CR123 format, but indirectly) is that regulators tend to be less efficient when fed with very low voltages, and that step-down ("buck") regulators tend to be more efficient than step-up ("boost") regulators, so all other things being equal a light designed for CR123 or rechargeable lithium cells is going to have a slightly easier time putting out lots of light and/or running for a long time. It is pretty impressive what can be done with a single NiMH AA though...

The 18650 with CR123 backup seems like a real nice idea. Haven't tried it myself since my 18650 lights (Electrolumens DeCree and a pending EDC-P7) are direct drive and so can't take the higher voltage of 2x 123 cells, but it seems like a very practical combination.

Hi,

I was taking a look at how the current was consumed for a L1T (AA), L2T (2xAA), and P3D (2x123), and here are my scope traces. I sure like how smooth the buck circuit in the P3D is compared to the others.







Thanks,

Alan

EngrPaul said:

Although a CR123 lithium primary has similar W*h to a AA lithium primary, it has a larger surface area and significantly lower voltage.

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:huh2:

A CR123 lithium primary is 3 volts and an L91 AA lithium primary is 1.5 volts.

How does a single CR123 have lower voltage compared to a single L91?

Black Rose said:

:huh2:

A CR123 lithium primary is 3 volts and an L91 AA lithium primary is 1.5 volts.

How does a single CR123 have lower voltage compared to a single L91?

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Bad sentence I guess. I was referring to the larger surface footprint and lower voltage of the AA.