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Thread: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Ditto's on keeping knife clean. I've never had a knife rust. FWIW the best blade by far is my Sebenza in BG42. I only have to sharpen it 4 times a year.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Quote Originally Posted by mossyoak View Post
    zdp will rust up pretty easy thats why spydie laminates zdp189 between two layers of 440c in alot of their knives.
    I think it was mentioned that the real reason is that they can't punch thicker zdp stocks in golden facility, so that's why they have laminated zdp from golden while solid zdp from seki city.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Quote Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
    I think it was mentioned that the real reason is that they can't punch thicker zdp stocks in golden facility, so that's why they have laminated zdp from golden while solid zdp from seki city.
    Am I the only only who thinks that something is wrong here? I've never seen a single Golden-made Spydie using Japanese steel. Nor have I ever seen a laminate blade using ZDP-189. I've seen VG-10 laminates from Fallkniven (which is made in Japan as well) but never a single Spyderco with such blade composition. Neither from Seki nor from Golden. And BTW, some of these super-hard steels are made using composite blade technique by sandwiching different steels not because of rusting issues, but only because it gives greater strength. Stainless steels are brittle, especially these ubber hard and high wear resistant exotic stainless...

    They don't have ZDP stocks in the Colorado facility simply because, apparently, the Japanese just won't export them...
    Last edited by Outdoors Fanatic; 10-28-2008 at 12:57 PM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Funny, the more I get into knives, the more I think.. Why oh Why didn't I buy a D2 grippy from cabelas??? Oh right, no $80 to do so..

    Ah well, its still a good blade with a good steel!
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  5. #35
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    Am I the only only who thinks that something is wrong here? I've never seen a single Golden-made Spydie using Japanese steel. Nor have I ever seen a laminate blade using ZDP-189. I've seen VG-10 laminates from Fallkniven (which is made in Japan as well) but never a single Spyderco with such blade composition. Neither from Seki nor from Golden. And BTW, some of these super-hard steels are made using composite blade technique by sandwiching different steels not because of rusting issues, but only because it gives greater strength. Stainless steels are brittle, especially these ubber hard and high wear resistant exotic stainless...

    They don't have ZDP stocks in the Colorado facility simply because, apparently, the Japanese just won't export them...

    I could've swore I read that on spyderco forum, was said by one of the staff as a matter of fact.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    Not in edge retention it will not! 440C is a joke in edge holding compared to D2 and S30V. Even VG-10 beat it hands down. And then when compared to ZDP-189, CPM-M4 and S90V the difference is simply brutal.

    Many custom knifemakers still preach by 440C simply because it's a pretty easy steel to work with, and it takes the BEST finish among all stainless steels hands down.

    So if you want a very pretty blade that has excellent stain resistance but not so great toughness and egde retention, 440C is the way to go. If you want a very tough blade which takes a finer edge and holds it for longer but it doesn't resist rust so well, then plain carbon or tool steel is your choice. Wonder why most bushcraft/wilderness blades are made with High-Carbon steel and not stainless steels?

    Good post. I have all of these steels in various knives, Bark River, Mcusta, Sekicut, Benchmade, Shun & others.

    There is a big difference in edge holding stepping down to 440c. At best is is a couple to several points lower on the Rockwell scale. I do not buy 440c any longer, there are plenty of better alternatives for a discriminating buyer.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Quote Originally Posted by OCDGearhead View Post
    Good post. I have all of these steels in various knives, Bark River, Mcusta, Sekicut, Benchmade, Shun & others.

    There is a big difference in edge holding stepping down to 440c. At best is is a couple to several points lower on the Rockwell scale. I do not buy 440c any longer, there are plenty of better alternatives for a discriminating buyer.
    I went the route of being a "discriminating buyer."

    After awhile, I decided I'd rather have a stainless steel that was truly stainless and didn't require specialized equipment to keep the blade sharp.

    Besides, I prefer beer and Doritos instead of wine and fine cheese.

    (Still, being from Russia; I know where to get quality caviar at potato chip prices).
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  8. #38
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Quote Originally Posted by Monocrom View Post
    I went the route of being a "discriminating buyer."

    After awhile, I decided I'd rather have a stainless steel that was truly stainless and didn't require specialized equipment to keep the blade sharp.

    Besides, I prefer beer and Doritos instead of wine and fine cheese.

    (Still, being from Russia; I know where to get quality caviar at potato chip prices).
    I think we either don't live in the same world or you have never actually used a modern stainless steel. VG-10 is a bliss to work with, it takes a mean edge, holds it and is pretty darn easy to sharpen. It is also 100% rust free. Specialized equipment? Common ceramic rods or croc sticks make quick short work of VG-10, 154CM or S30V, no problems there. I can say the same about INFI, it is the easiest steel to keep and maintain I've ever used.

    440C is WWII old technology, I don't want that in my knives. If it's too soft, the egde ain't worth a crap, if it's adequately hard it's brittle as glass. Great steel for presentation knives, but I don't want that in my hard use knives nor in my high-end folders.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    I think we either don't live in the same world or you have never actually used a modern stainless steel. VG-10 is a bliss to work with, it takes a mean edge, holds it and is pretty darn easy to sharpen. It is also 100% rust free. Specialized equipment? Common ceramic rods or croc sticks make quick short work of VG-10, 154CM or S30V, no problems there. I can say the same about INFI, it is the easiest steel to keep and maintain I've ever used.

    440C is WWII old technology, I don't want that in my knives. If it's too soft, the egde ain't worth a crap, if it's adequately hard it's brittle as glass. Great steel for presentation knives, but I don't want that in my hard use knives nor in my high-end folders.
    A few years ago, I'd save up my money to buy the latest exotics. Must admit, I do like VG-10. The others were a disappointment in one form or another. True, ceramic and diamond rods work for resharpening. But I found that the ceramics took too long. And some collectors have a profound hatred for diamond rods and sharpening stones. (Some feel they take off too much metal from the cutting edge).

    When it comes to being a "discriminating buyer," been there; done that.

    You're right. 440C is old. But that also means it's time-proven. Hell, Jeeps date back to WWII as well. People still buy the same basic Jeep design because it's time-proven. Certainly far from perfect, but still dependable enough that folks rely on it.

    Check out the post George left in his 2009 CPF Knife thread. A certain blade steel took on the job of cutting through a moose, and did quite well at it.
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  10. #40
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    To throw this in:

    Consider that one also has to factor in bevel design-angles, edge bevel, grit used when sharpening the edge bevel, thickness...heat treat. This is left out in most steel discussions.

    Make up a handful of knives with near same build tolerances. All steels heat treated to their prospective working hardness levels, then compare. Start cutting 1" hemp rope you may well find the 440-C gave way at X cuts and D2 or steel XXX went so many cuts. It could be a slight margin or more. This all changes the moment you sharpen it since it will change the dynamics of the edge. So all of what steel X, Y can do has too many variables involved to simply define performance. In lab testing yes, real world use...good luck.

    This is like saying car X has so much horsepower and is "better" over car Y, neglecting car weight, gearing....
    Mike

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Bark River came out with a stainless steel version of their popular Bravo-1 (normally A2 steel). The steel they used was CPM-154, a powdered metal version of 154cm. The sales pitch on this website discusses the virtues of the powdered version and has a couple of micro-structure pictures comparing the two steels. Unfortunately this baby is a bit more than I'd want to pay. Not what I'd post in the Good Deals forum. Mostly for big fans, collectors, etc.

    http://www.knivesshipfree.com/Bark-R...duct_info.html

  12. #42
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    Shrug Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Quote Originally Posted by Monocrom View Post
    As for edge retention, the other steels that you mentioned are certainly better than 440C. But my experience is that they are not that much beter. But some of the exotics are certainly a bit better at attracting rust. Look at ZDP-189. As mossyoak pointed out, Sal has to sandwich this exotic in between 440C because it'll rust so easily.

    But as far as D2 goes, oh yeah it's got extremely good edge retention over 440C, and practically over everything else out there too.... And you need the patience of a Saint in order to sharpen a dull D2 blade. That, or access to some laser-sharpening equipment.
    ZDP-189 doesn't have to be laminated, but laminated is cheaper and easier to work with. Some Spydercos have solid ZDP blades; CF Stretch, ZDP Endura and Delica.

    I EDC a ZDP Stretch and there is no rusting and it stays sharp for ages. A bit of a bitch to sharpen though.

    D2 is easy compared to ZDP

    For most users all the higher end steels will perform very well. If one is inexperienced with sharpening and don't have a good sharpening kit some of the higher end steels are a nightmare to sharpen.

    There are several reasons to use carbon steel in outdoor fixed blades; cheaper, better toughness, smaller carbides and tradition.
    I like A2 in my fixed blades, but 52-100 and several other carbon steels are very good. AFAIK there aren't any stainless steels out there that will beat good carbon steel in performance. The only advantage they have is ease of maintenance

    That said I like stainless in my folders since they are harder to clean.

    Sverre

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    Got a Benchmade minigrip in 440C and I think it sharpens easier than S30V. I have never seen either rust but wouldn't think twice about trusting it as my only knife...

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Blade Material: 440c vs 154cm

    I am a discriminating buyer. I would preferre that all of my knives are BG42. But since that isnt going to happen, I can sharpen. Of my knives, BG42 takes the most time to sharpen and Bucks 420hc is the easiest. Everything else is a stroke or two of being the same.

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