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Thread: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree 5A

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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree 5A

    Hi folks,
    I just finished my latest mod, one of the new high CRI Seoul emitters (4000K CCT) in a KL1 head, and I decided to post beamshots of different types of LEDs and an incandescent light source illuminating objects of various colors. I almost have what I would consider a good cross section of LEDs to choose from: I just wish I had a light that uses one of the newer neutral to warm Crees such as a 5A tint bin. Anyway, on to the beamshots.

    The camera was set to sunlight color balance and the light sources were placed 8 feet from the target (with the exception of one of the shots using the Nichia 083)

    First up is an incandescent light using a 3.7V lamp assembly that is very white for an incandescent. It is a Wolf Eyes Sniper putting out about 100 bulb lumens.





    The second pic used the high CRI Seoul LED (4000K CCT) in the KL1 head.


    Next up is a high CRI Nichia 083 as used in McGizmo's Sundrop. This is more of a flood light, so the scene is not lit as intensely as in the other cases.



    This pic also used the Nichia 083, but this time the light source was only about 4 feet from the wall in order to more brightly illuminate the objects for a better idea of how it renders color (I hope).


    This pic used the Osram Golden Dragon in my Lunasol 20.


    And last is a Rebel 100 in my Arcmania Extreme III:


    Note: pics 2 and 3 have been switched since the original posting to allow better comparison between the incan and high CRI Seoul light sources by request.

    Overall, these beamshots are pretty representative of the way these light sources render colorful scenes. The Nichia 083 seems dim in these shots, but in reality provides plenty of light that is very easy on the eyes. Nevertheless, it is best suited for illuminating nearby objects. But, having compared all of these light sources in person, I understand why Don chose the Nichia 083 to use in his high CRI light, the Sundrop. It really is spectacular IMO, but Don's opinion probably carries a lot more weight than mine.

    What these pictures do not show well is the way greens are rendered by these lights, and maybe I will have to take more beamshots sometime to show that. Also, these pictures do not give any indication of the ease with which my eyes can judge depth using these light sources. And even if I took pics of trees and such that show these differences in person, I doubt they would be present in photographs. There are qualities of the high CRI LEDs that are difficult to describe, and to complicate matters more, different people are effected to different degrees by the differences between these light sources. I find that I greatly prefer high CRI when I can get it without sacrificing form or function.

    There are finally LEDs that can give some incandescent lights a run for their money, even outdoors. I was after an LED version of an E2E, with similar throw, good color rendition, longer runtime, and the reliability of a well built LED light. I think I have it with my KL1 mod. This light runs for about 3 hours (have not actually tested - this assumes 85% converter efficiency) instead of 75 minutes for the incandescent E2E and it gives me the option of using 17670 rechargeable cells for about 2.5 hours at slightly lower output (560mA vs. 750mA on primaries). Still, I wonder how a Cree Q2 5A in a KX2 or maybe an E2L or E2DL would compare?
    Last edited by mudman cj; 11-15-2008 at 05:10 PM.


  2. #2
    *Flashaholic* Sgt. LED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    The third pic used the high CRI Seoul LED (4000K CCT) in the KL1 head.

    That's the big winner here for my eyes!

    I would love to see a head to head of that light and one of Gene's new Q2 Malkoff's!

    Thanks for posting the color test for all of us.

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    *Flashaholic* Sgt. LED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Could you swap the places of you pics so that the incan shot and the Seoul high CRI are one behind another?

    I't help me compare the best 2 for color viewing.

    THANKS A BUNCH.

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    Flashaholic* WadeF's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    You could try taking the shots with the white balance set to daylight, but exposure set to auto so the exposures are more consistent. That way we could focus on how the colors are being rendered.
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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    I hear ya! A Q2 would put out more light, but I will have to see for myself if the extra light makes up for the drop in color rendition. I just had to order a Dereelight Q3 5A dropin that runs at 1 Amp so I can find out. I would prefer a light with the E2E form factor, but I can use this drop in with my Sniper and get more use out of it. When I get it I will add beamshots of it for comparison.


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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by WadeF View Post
    You could try taking the shots with the white balance set to daylight, but exposure set to auto so the exposures are more consistent. That way we could focus on how the colors are being rendered.
    Yeah, that's what I did, at least to the extent that my camera would allow. Sorry they didn't come out more to your liking.

    Edit: I added another pic of the Nichia 083 with the light source placed closer to the scene. This resulted in an exposure more consistent with the other pics. I hope it serves the intended purpose.
    Last edited by mudman cj; 11-04-2008 at 07:26 AM.


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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    This is some excellent work mudman. Thanks! It should probably be in the LED section though.

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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    May I ask what part number the Seoul LED is and where you sourced it?


    Thanks

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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Great Job!

    I know it takes some work to get good shots like these.

    Thanks for the comparison,very useful.

    About the 5A Cree,I think you'll be pleased.Compared directly against one of the high CRI emitters,you'll see a big difference,and you'll likely notice a little tint variation in everyday(or night)use,but its not like the cool whites,after just a few minutes of use you adapt very well and its not distracting or very noticeable at all.With the higher flux output/efficiency,they're better suited for everyday use.

    -Michael

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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    This is some excellent work mudman. Thanks! It should probably be in the LED section though.
    Oh, I thought I did put it in the LED section, but now I see that I put it in LED flashlights. I will ask a moderator to move it.


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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Moving it for you...
    Resistance is futile...

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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisP View Post
    May I ask what part number the Seoul LED is and where you sourced it?


    Thanks
    I got it here. There is also another part number for one mounted to a star. You should be able to find it easily with this as a starting point.


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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Thank you for the pics. I'm considering getting a Q3 5A from dereelight myself and am anxiously awaiting your pictures to compare it to a rebel.

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    Flashaholic* divine's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    I read this today, that fluorescent lights have a CRI of 82, and Metal halide (HID), if you're lucky will do 70 CRI.

    I don't know about everyone, but I am usually seeing indoors with fluorescent lights, so some of my flashlights give a higher CRI than I am normally used to seeing.

    The CRI of a Q5 WC Cree is around 70, and the CRI of a Golden Dragon is around 80.


    If you ask me, red seems about twice as apparent when being lit by a golden dragon as it is being lit by a WC Cree or a SWO Seoul.

    Now, this is where it gets confusing. It seems like how the light hits what you're viewing affects its ability for you to see what you're looking at. If you shine the hot spot directly on something red, they mostly seem the same. If you catch something red on the very edge of your spill, the CRI seems critical. If you are seeing from reflected light, there seems to be other things that affect what you see. I'm not too sure about the reflected light yet. I need to test some things.
    "For every good deed, there is an equal an opposite bad deed."

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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisP View Post
    May I ask what part number the Seoul LED is and where you sourced it?
    Mudman: same question about the Cree 5A.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Cemoi View Post
    Mudman: same question about the Cree 5A.

    Thanks
    I'm not sure where mudman is getting his from but you can get them from this module.

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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by divine View Post
    I read this today, that fluorescent lights have a CRI of 82, and Metal halide (HID), if you're lucky will do 70 CRI.
    Flouro lights can have a CRI of 70 up to 95 depending on the type. Standard flouro is 70, triphosphor around 84, and full spectrum around 95 according to this document on page 4.

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    Flashaholic* saabluster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by KrisP View Post
    I'm not sure where mudman is getting his from but you can get them from this module.
    Kind of a moot point to link to that as they have been out of stock for some time now and do not appear to be getting any more. Disregard the note that says they will be back in stock in whatever amount of days. It is not true. (edit. It took them several months but I noticed they are back in stock)
    Last edited by saabluster; 02-14-2009 at 01:07 PM.

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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by Cemoi View Post
    Mudman: same question about the Cree 5A.

    Thanks
    As I said above, I just ordered a Dereelight drop in that supposedly contains a Cree 5A with Q3 brightness bin. I say supposedly because until I saw that the brightest bin I had heard of in 5A was a Q2. But either way I think I will use it.


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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Great beamshot setup mudman!
    Who is that little red guy? (haven't had him here in Sweden)
    He seems to be very happy to be photographed and has been modelling for www.steves-digicams.com for years, appearing in thousands of ISO level shots.
    .

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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Huh, I had no idea that someone else was using an M&M character for color rendition. They are little chocolate candies with a thin candy shell that provides a little texture, color, and prevents the chocolate from melting by the heat of your hand. It is a widely recognized product here to say the least. I chose it because I was looking for reds and greens. But I have noticed that LEDs can sometimes render certain shades of green and blue poorly while rendering others well due to 'gaps' in the spectral output. I think when I get the 5A Cree in hand I may modify the scene to include more types of green and also browns to begin to convey the differences between these light sources with respect to rendering objects typically found in nature.


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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by mudman cj View Post
    I just ordered a Dereelight drop in that supposedly contains a Cree 5A
    Thanks and sorry for asking, but I didn't know what a "Dereelight drop in" meant in your former post. So I searched CPF, and I suppose you are talking about the last item on this page?
    But $35 is too much since I only need the PCB-mounted emitter.

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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Yes, that is what I ordered. I don't know of another source for them right now. There were 20 of them that were sold in the marketplace, but they are all gone. You could keep your eye open or try to PM some of those individuals that bought more than 1 and may not have used them all yet. You could also PM the person that ordered the lot of them for more info.


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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    Quote Originally Posted by mudman cj View Post
    As I said above, I just ordered a Dereelight drop in that supposedly contains a Cree 5A with Q3 brightness bin. I say supposedly because until I saw that the brightest bin I had heard of in 5A was a Q2. But either way I think I will use it.
    Have you received the Q3 5A yet? I'm interested to see how it compares to the others.

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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083 (high CRI), Seoul high CR

    No, but it shouldn't be long now. In addition to the Dereelight drop in I also ordered a Fenix TK20, and unlike the Dereelight I know the TK20 has already shipped.


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    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    OK, I got in my Fenix TK20 with Cree 5A emitter today, and took another set of beamshots. This time I added a few more objects and tried harder to get even exposures. If anyone would like to make these into a slideshow, be my guest.

    As before, I will start with incan:


    And now the Seoul high CRI (4000K CCT):


    This one is the Cree 5A (and since the TK20 has a tighter beam pattern, I had to place the light further away to illuminate more of the scene):


    And now for the Nichia 083 high CRI LED (this one was closer because the light is more floody):


    On to the Rebel 100 (again closer because of the more floody beam):


    And finally the Golden Dragon in my LS20:


    After playing with the TK20 for a bit I noticed some differences in color rendering compared to reference light sources, but as others have said, the 5A bin Crees are quite a nice compromise in brightness for color rendition compared to other LEDs. IMO this makes it a great choice for outdoors lights. I find that indoors it has a somewhat yellow/green characteristic that can be seen a little on a white wall but more so on skin. The 5A also lacks a bit in red and orange which makes orange objects appear more yellow. By comparison, the Seoul has bountiful orange and red which brings out the pinks in skin much more than the TK20, but my particular Seoul has a yellow/rose tint to it. The Seoul also tends to yellow things up a bit, while the Nichia 083 gives a higher color temperature version of high CRI that is quite tint neutral and just great at close range.
    Last edited by mudman cj; 11-15-2008 at 08:25 PM.


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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Nice beamshots

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    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    These are nice beamshots. They let me know that anyone who claims that LEDs can't render colors either A) has never seen a WW LED or B) is seeing what they want to see.


    I hope you don't mind that I made an animated gif with the Cree 5A and incan shot.

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Not at all, though it would be even better if I could have managed to support the TK20 on the other side of the room for that shot since the change in camera angle is apparent: I moved the camera location to avoid hard shadows.

    I would like to see the incan in an animated gif with the Seoul. Those would be the closest comparison shots IMO, and the Seoul was closest to incan in real life too (not that incan should be considered ideal mind you). This gif would help prove the point that LEDs have finally learned a new trick.
    Last edited by mudman cj; 11-15-2008 at 11:19 PM.


  30. #30
    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    High CRI SSC and incan:



    I wish GIF was updated to support more colors. It isn't 1987 anymore.

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