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Thread: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree 5A

  1. #31
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Great thread!

    Big thanks to the OP.

  2. #32
    Flashaholic OrlandoLights's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Thanks for doing this thread, Mudman, it's just what I needed in finding a light that rendered colors realistically. Or as I think of it in my non-scientific way, a beautiful beam.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Excellent comparison of CRI in the second series, Mudman - thanks! The Nichia is clearly the best at rendering color. I wonder about an array of these LEDs...

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Thanks a ton for doing this mudman. It's still pretty new to me how well these high cri leds seem to work. I'm definitively going to look into this.

    The only thing I noticed in your comparison is that the Black&Decker toolbox might possibly be made of fluorescent plastic material which means it'll probably shine bright orange even if it were illuminated by a monocromatic blue light... Not that it seems to throw off the effectiveness of the test at all.
    "Old LEDs never die, they just fade away."

  5. #35
    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by kongfuchicken View Post
    Thanks a ton for doing this mudman. It's still pretty new to me how well these high cri leds seem to work. I'm definitively going to look into this.

    The only thing I noticed in your comparison is that the Black&Decker toolbox might possibly be made of fluorescent plastic material which means it'll probably shine bright orange even if it were illuminated by a monocromatic blue light... Not that it seems to throw off the effectiveness of the test at all.
    Well, I don't have a monochromatic blue light, and I don't want to enter into a debate on the subject, so I guess I will just have to take some more beamshots.

    This time I tried to focus on different orange objects, and I realized that there would be some added benefit to using objects that are somewhat standard; so that anyone could obtain a similar object for reference. This is why I used some more fruit in this one. I wish I had an eggplant, but just grabbed a few purple items to show how purple can look quite different. The cardboard in the background is another example of how browns look different as well. Oh, and this time I added my L4's Lux V to the mix.

    Incan:


    Seoul high CRI 4000K CCT:


    Cree 5A:


    Nichia 083 high CRI:


    Rebel 100:


    Golden Dragon:


    Lux V:


  6. #36
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Mudman, I honestly have no clue whether the box is fluorescent or not but my laundry detergent bottle, the tag on my bag, the handles of my scissors and the traffic cone in the trunk of the car are and I never noticed until i played with a blue laser with the lights off =P

    I certainly didn't intend my observation to be of any criticism to your test (which is eye-opening to me) and now I feel guilty for troubling you into reloading the whole thing... sorry and thanks for doing this!


    In any case, the washed out colors effect is more than obvious to me in every shot past the rebel100 one. I'm stunned that the effect can be recreated on a picture displayed on an lcd screen when I thought it were something with my eyes being below average or something the likes...

    Well I'm certainly impressed and I look forward to the many weeks of tinkering and rebuilding all my lights with these new leds.
    "Old LEDs never die, they just fade away."

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Nice color shots Mudman! Every time I see new comparison shots showing the Q3 5A up against anything else the more I want them in every light I own! Can someone put one in my Titan for me?!? If so, please PM me!
    Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し

  8. #38
    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    kongfuchicken - I didn't take your comments as a criticism, so please don't feel guilty. I thought that you made a valid point that I simply was not equipped to address, so rather than wonder if the effect you mentioned was influencing the results or not, I thought I would take it as an opportunity to further demonstrate differences between these light sources.

    I wish there were a good way to demonstrate the relative ease with which these different light sources allow one to hike through the woods for example. There are definite differences in depth perception and situational awareness for lack of a better term between these light sources IMO. And these differences are really what matters most to me, not accurate color rendition.

    As others have said, sometimes more light output can make up for these other differences, so you might be disappointed by changing the LED in certain lights to one of these alternatives with lower output. Just something to keep in mind. I would say that the Cree 5A is largely a no-brainer because the output is only 15% less than cool white LEDs, but when you consider using the Seoul high CRI LED keep in mind that the output is on par with a Lux III. And the Nichia 083 has a similar Lux III effieciency but with lower power handling its more like a Lux I, and you can't expect the Nichia 083 to give hardly any throw. I use one with a Q3 reflector for a nice beam that throws to maybe 50 feet and thats it. And when I use throw in this context I mean I can still identify objects at that distance: this does not necessarily conform to any accepted definition of throw.


  9. #39
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    Default Different Kelvin?

    For me it seams that all LEDs used in the "CRI experiment" does NOT have the same CCT (Kelvin & X,Y) is this correct?

    Since this will also affect the resoult a lot as well as the amount of lumen pushed out of the LEDs to the objects.
    Opto-King

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    I know where you are going with that. CRI is only defined for light sources having the same CCT. The light sources used in these beamshots did not all have the same CCT. But I am not trying to measure CRI here - this was not intended to be nor labeled as a "CRI experiment". And yes, the light intensity is also important when comparing things of this nature.

    I have made an attempt to adjust the position of the lights to achieve equal intensities. Did I succeed? No. I realize that the intensities as well as beam shapes are not equal.

    What I have tried to show is roughly how these different light sources render objects. And by that I mean how they appear to my eyes. The beamshots do not perfectly show what I see when I use these lights, but they give a pretty good idea of the difference. That is all. I never claimed that these beamshots show or prove that some light sources have a higher CRI. I could care less about the CRI value in some sense, because CRI is defined off of a black body curve, and black body radiation is not the ultimate standard IMO. I am after a light source that renders objects similarly to sunlight. And the spectrum of light reaching our eyes from the sun is not black body radiation.


  11. #41
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Great thread!

    By the way, would the land 'Where corn and pigs are grown unimpeded by trees' happen to be Minnesota? I noticed the Wild Thing M&M souvenir, and thought it might be from the Valleyfair in Shokopee
    Due to my current schedule being pretty darn hectic, I will not be accepting new modding projects until things settle down.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by Tekno_Cowboy View Post
    Great thread!

    By the way, would the land 'Where corn and pigs are grown unimpeded by trees' happen to be Minnesota? I noticed the Wild Thing M&M souvenir, and thought it might be from the Valleyfair in Shokopee
    I would have thought Indiana.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    I think it would be interesting to take a series of comparative shots with different light sources but keep the source of each shot secret and see what everyone thinks is best, then reveal the sources. The secrecy would serve to remove confirmation bias.

  14. #44
    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Sorry, neither of you have the right answer to where I live. Hint: this state is consistently at the top of the list for both corn and hog production and is often #1 in either or both categories.


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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by mudman cj View Post
    Sorry, neither of you have the right answer to where I live. Hint: this state is consistently at the top of the list for both corn and hog production and is often #1 in either or both categories.
    I bet it's either Nebraska or Iowa.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeA View Post
    I think it would be interesting to take a series of comparative shots with different light sources but keep the source of each shot secret and see what everyone thinks is best, then reveal the sources. The secrecy would serve to remove confirmation bias.
    When I get some time I am going to do something like this as I have a ton of different LEDs and tints. Cree WC, WG, WH, 3A, 4A, 5A, 6C, 7A, 8AorB, SSC P4 High CRI and a few other SSC tints that I can't remember right now, Nichia 083, Luxeon Rebel, Golden Dragon, and a few other Luxeons and generic LEDs.

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    When I get some time I am going to do something like this as I have a ton of different LEDs and tints. Cree WC, WG, WH, 3A, 4A, 5A, 6C, 7A, 8AorB, SSC P4 High CRI and a few other SSC tints that I can't remember right now, Nichia 083, Luxeon Rebel, Golden Dragon, and a few other Luxeons and generic LEDs.
    Any chance of also squeezing an incan in?

  18. #48
    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    I bet it's either Nebraska or Iowa.
    And you would win with one of those answers. - it's Iowa.

    saabluster - Someone could certainly do a better job than I have. It sounds like you have a very nice selection of LEDs to use. I hope you have a camera with more configuration options than mine. I am unable to create custom locked white balance settings for example and I also have little control over the exposure in order to get photos that illuminate the subject equally. I also wanted to include some outdoor beamshots, but they never turned out good enough to include. I really wanted to try to show the difference when illuminating things in nature, and I hoped to portray the differences in depth perception that exist in my personal experience, but that is probably too much to hope for. There is only so much you can get from an arrangement of colored pixels on a computer screen.


  19. #49

    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeA View Post
    Any chance of also squeezing an incan in?
    Absolutely. It really wouldn't be worth doing otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by mudman cj View Post
    I hope you have a camera with more configuration options than mine. I am unable to create custom locked white balance settings for example and I also have little control over the exposure in order to get photos that illuminate the subject equally. I also wanted to include some outdoor beamshots, but they never turned out good enough to include. I really wanted to try to show the difference when illuminating things in nature, and I hoped to portray the differences in depth perception that exist in my personal experience, but that is probably too much to hope for. There is only so much you can get from an arrangement of colored pixels on a computer screen.
    I have a decent camera and can lock the white balance. I will make it a very thorough set of pictures with the white balance set multiple ways and in multiple settings.

  20. #50
    Flashaholic* mudman cj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    Absolutely. It really wouldn't be worth doing otherwise.



    I have a decent camera and can lock the white balance. I will make it a very thorough set of pictures with the white balance set multiple ways and in multiple settings.
    Then I look forward to having my thread bettered.


  21. #51
    Retired Administrator Norm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    When I bought my Jet III M with a Cree 5A it was the first LED light I was truly happy with, since putting a 5A in a Sgt. Burkett I think I have found my perfect EDC. I will be gett more 5As for other lights.
    Thanks for all the hard working setting up and taking all those pictures.
    Norm

  22. #52

    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    I have a unique case for high CRI values. I've been deploying my own LED fixtures in a very busy night-club - Not only for colored accent lighting, but increasingly for utility lighting around the bar so staff can see what they are doing while still keeping things aethestically dark.

    One problem I recently found with neutral white Luxeons was that while their out-put intensity was fine, their rather low CRI made it difficult to tell draft beer brands apart in the serving window. The neutral white Luxeons have a big problem being able to tell warm colors apart, which you can see here. This caused confusion on busy nights and some rather, uh, unpleasant drama with my wait staff. Lite beers are an especially difficult problem because their subtle amber colors are so similiar, unlike lets say Guiness -vs- Blue Moon (yummy!).

    I switched to warm-white Cree P4's, and while it didn't have the astronomical improvement such as using the uber_high CRI emitters here (they are simply too awkward to obtain to make it worth it for me*), it was enough to fix the problem over the Luxeons.

    Now we need beer companies to sponsor high CRI LEDs, and life is good :-)

    *Edit: I believe these are the Seoul high CRI chips on Mouser. They cross reference to having a CRI of 93 on the Zled site, and are available in both 4000k and 3000k temps. Good to know.
    http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine....953+4294628959
    Last edited by blasterman; 02-10-2009 at 10:42 PM. Reason: update

  23. #53
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    I just scrolled through this thread again to see if I thanked mudman, and seeing as I did not:

    Thank you for an awesome, visually informative thread!
    "...and the diode multiplied and grew in brightness. And God saw that it was good."

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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree


    I have seen that a Swedish company called Optoga has a wide range of LED modules called Optodrive that according to the company has CRI 95!
    http://www.optodrive.se/pressrelease2.pab

    Both Ledsmagazine and Ledinside has written about it, but does any one know if this is true? And if so, how come they have so good CRI/Ra values?
    Opto-King

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    "...the result gives a CRI 95 with flux levels that match the best “low” CRI products. The compact Optodrive modules open up completely new opportunities for exciting and functional design solutions with energy efficiency up to 80lm/W."

    How does 80lm/W compare to current Cree stuff? How does it compare in efficiency to the high-CRI SSC P4?
    "...and the diode multiplied and grew in brightness. And God saw that it was good."

  26. #56

    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by Opto-King View Post

    I have seen that a Swedish company called Optoga has a wide range of LED modules called Optodrive that according to the company has CRI 95!
    http://www.optodrive.se/pressrelease2.pab

    Both Ledsmagazine and Ledinside has written about it, but does any one know if this is true? And if so, how come they have so good CRI/Ra values?
    Well they say in the article how they get the high CRI.

    " Recently the development of better phosphors has improved LED performance and in the latest tests, the result gives a CRI 95 with flux levels that match the best “low” CRI products."

    As I have pointed out before that last bit showcases how companies like to lie just a little bit to make their product sound better or more novel than it really is. It's interesting that they don't date their "press releases".

  27. #57
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    Question Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    ... " Recently the development of better phosphors has improved LED performance and in the latest tests, the result gives a CRI 95 with flux levels that match the best “low” CRI products." ...

    I wonder where these "high flux + high CRI" SSC LED’s are?

    Has anybody seen one up till now?


    tl

  28. #58
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Bit of info I got from an SSC sales rep here. Really suspect that the flux numbers will be the top bin though.
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  29. #59
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    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    Well they say in the article how they get the high CRI.

    " Recently the development of better phosphors has improved LED performance and in the latest tests, the result gives a CRI 95 with flux levels that match the best “low” CRI products."

    As I have pointed out before that last bit showcases how companies like to lie just a little bit to make their product sound better or more novel than it really is. It's interesting that they don't date their "press releases".
    So, do you think that this mean that Optoga has upgraded the phosphor on their Optodrive LED modules? Or, does it mean that they have come over some special top bin selections from SSC?
    Opto-King

  30. #60

    Default Re: Color rendition beamshots: incan, GD, Rebel, Nichia 083, Seoul high CRI, and Cree

    Quote Originally Posted by Opto-King View Post
    So, do you think that this mean that Optoga has upgraded the phosphor on their Optodrive LED modules? Or, does it mean that they have come over some special top bin selections from SSC?
    I don't know. The "press release" is very unclear to me and I don't care to know more about them to be honest. Sorry. Try them out and report back for everyone's benefit.

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