Philips Master LED

NX3

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These LED drop in replacements have appeared online in Europe in the last few weeks. Quite expensive but interesting never the less.....

These look like the Ledino range that was talked about coming out at the end of the year (08)
ApplicationRouter.aspx
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Gu10, R63 and bulb, 7watt led, approx 40w, warm and cool white available

http://www.prismaecat.lighting.philips.com/ecat/Light/ApplicationRouter.aspx?fh_location=//prof/en_GB/categories<{fepplg}/countries>{en_GB}/status>{act}/categories<{c_0002fepplg_75_ep01}/categories<{}/categories<{c_0032fepplg_2420_ep01lret}/categories<{f_0012fepplg_2420_phl_mstled}&fh_reftheme=promo_75024506,seeall,//prof/en_GB/categories<{fepplg}/countries>{en_GB}/status>{act}/categories<{c_0002fepplg_75_ep01}/categories<{}/categories<{c_0032fepplg_2420_ep01lret}&fh_refview=summary&
 
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NX3

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Thanks, I couldn't get that link to work for some reason!
 

blasterman

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Site says "150 Lm"....which seems a bit low given the heads appear to be using at least four power LEDs. Given it's Philips though maybe they're using K2s :twothumbs

Line Voltage :thumbsup:

Likely high price requiring 30 or so years to recoup the cost :thumbsdow
 

R33E8

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These look very similar to the LED lights my school is slowly putting these in the university's main cafeteria.. If these are the ones then I have nothing good to say about them...:shakehead

Edit: I just checked today and these do not look the same. The ones at my school are shorter but have a similar exterior heat sink design..
 
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LEDninja

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Site says "150 Lm"....which seems a bit low
Remember for 24/7 use the power LEDs cannot be run at over 350 mA. Unlike in flashlights where they are run up to 1400 mA.
The optics are not double coated ultra clear glass so only 2/3 light transmission.
 

R33E8

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Remember for 24/7 use the power LEDs cannot be run at over 350 mA. Unlike in flashlights where they are run up to 1400 mA.
The optics are not double coated ultra clear glass so only 2/3 light transmission.

I wouldn't really say that's true.. They can be run at higher current as long as they have sufficient cooling.. It's just that 350mA gives a reasonably efficacy to lumen ration and is the current most companies base their emitter's lifetimes on..
 

LEDninja

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I wouldn't really say that's true.. They can be run at higher current as long as they have sufficient cooling.. It's just that 350mA gives a reasonably efficacy to lumen ration and is the current most companies base their emitter's lifetimes on..
Cooling is limited by the size of the bulb. Cannot be bigger than a 100W incandescent light bulb or it won't fit existing lamps. Cannot be heavier also. With reasonable cooling at 350 mA you can expect 50,000 hours. At a higher current lifetime can be expected to drop. Not a problem in a flashlight used occasionally but for an expensive household bulb run 24/7 any drop in lifetime is unacceptable.

The LuxV used in the Surefire KL4 is rated for only 500 hours. I have not seen one post where someone complained of the short life of that LED. After 250 sets of batteries nobody complains if the light dies. But 500 hours is just 21 days. Won't you complain if your $35+ light bulb burns out in less than a month.
There is a difference between household lighting and flashlights. With flashlights a much shorter LED life is acceptable.
But.....
I have seen many posts where highly driven LED flashlights are dimming significantly or dying within a few weeks. From Fenix to Bug Out Gear not to mention all those 2*18650 SSC-P7s from you know where. Those 2*18650 torches are quite a lot bigger than the 100W incan bulb size limitation I mentioned earlier.
(I have personally lost a Shinning Beam L-Mini and an Elektrolumens My Little Friend. I am now using a NiMH instead of a 10440 in my L0D CE.)
 

blasterman

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Remember for 24/7 use the power LEDs cannot be run at over 350 mA. Unlike in flashlights where they are run up to 1400 mA.
The optics are not double coated ultra clear glass so only 2/3 light transmission.

The lenses look like the typical acrylic 'beehive' arrangement, and even the cheap versions of these have transmission values about 85%.

Also, throwing a high performance coating on glass doesn't magically improve it's transmission by 1/3 - even cheap glass. There's a lot of high quality, 30-40yr Leica optics out there made without high tech coatings to prove that one.

There's also a lot of us running 3watt LEDs at >350ma that aren't having a problem.We might not get 50k hours at 90% new efficiency, but then again we are building our fixtures to suit our needs and not make maximum profit via minimum production costs in China to appease shareholders.

If the lumen values are indeed correct for this bulb, then by the time the bulb hits 1/4 of the time span required to pay for itself another technology will replace it. You need at least 500 Lm to compete with mainstream lighting, or it's nothimg more than accent lighting.
 
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R33E8

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Cooling is limited by the size of the bulb. Cannot be bigger than a 100W incandescent light bulb or it won't fit existing lamps. Cannot be heavier also. With reasonable cooling at 350 mA you can expect 50,000 hours. At a higher current lifetime can be expected to drop. Not a problem in a flashlight used occasionally but for an expensive household bulb run 24/7 any drop in lifetime is unacceptable.

Cool.. The forum just ate my long post... :ohgeez:

Anyways it basically said I would use the amount of watts passing through an LED instead of current.. Mainly because you can translate it to the amount of heat being emitted.. Also, It's pretty sure it's impossible today to make a HBLED lamp that weights the same and equal in lumen as a 100 Watt lamp (standard medium base ones).. Or even 40 Watt lamp... Possibly at 10 Watt lamp :)...I also wouldn't mind if I bought an led but with a 70% lumen maintenance over 5 or so years.. Hopefully it would have paid itself off by then..

Anyways in the end, it's mainly about what is the cheapest and most efficient way to produce the results one wants... It may be more efficent to use 5 R2's at 350mA(5W total) to reach 600 lumens but you could do the same with 1 MC-E at 500mA(7W total) cheaper, easier, and have around the same lifetime...
 

LEDninja

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I base my 2/3 light transmission on tests done on M@gs on CPF. Stock Mags lose 1/3 of the light. Fenix which use high quality AR coated glass get 81% transmission.
So I do not believe cheap acrylic will give 85%. Where do you get that # and more importantly under what conditions were the tests done. And what quality acrylic. I also do not believe those 900 lumen lights at DX really produce 900 lumens. Marketing departments are great at taking numbers out of context to make their products look good.
The lenses look like the typical acrylic 'beehive' arrangement, and even the cheap versions of these have transmission values about 85%.

Leica does not use cheap glass, even 30-40 years ago. AR coatings improve transmission ~9% as tested by flashlightlens. Which means the cheap plastic of a M@glite absorbs 5% compared to UCL.
Also, throwing a high performance coating on glass doesn't magically improve it's transmission by 1/3 - even cheap glass. There's a lot of high quality, 30-40yr Leica optics out there made without high tech coatings to prove that one.

It is cheaper to build a bulb running a LED at 1A than running 3 LEDs at 350 mA. So Philips is not taking the maximum profit route. (Some of the DX KD bulbs are running 3 watts into a single LED) Philips is probably playing it safe at this time as there is a major backlash when the early CFLs do not last the claimed 10 years. Also running a LED at 1A ~3X of 350 mA only gets 2X more lumens. So at that level the efficiency is now not much better than a much cheaper CFL.
There's also a lot of us running 3watt LEDs at >350ma that aren't having a problem.We might not get 50k hours at 90% new efficiency, but then again we are building our fixtures to suit our needs and not make maximum profit via minimum production costs in China to appease shareholders.

I agree at least 500 Lm to compete with mainstream lighting. I do a ceiling bounce with my EDC-P7 or M@g-P7 ~500-600Lm and my 13W CFL is still brighter. Where I really need light I use a 23W CFL. It is annoying when the marketing department claims a bulb with 1/3 the lumens is equivalent to a 40W bulb.
If the lumen values are indeed correct for this bulb, then by the time the bulb hits 1/4 of the time span required to pay for itself another technology will replace it. You need at least 500 Lm to compete with mainstream lighting, or it's nothimg more than accent lighting.

One other thing I like to mention.
I bought a 3*Cree bulb a year ago. I compared it to 3*L0D CE strapped together. The brightness level and beam pattern were the same. I turned the lights off and reached to take the LED bulb from the lamp. I almost burnt my hand. The L0D CEs were barely warm. I figured the power supply of the LED must be generating all that extra heat. A very inefficient power supply.
When comparing bulbs it is necessary to compare LED+power supply to CFL tube+ballast to incandescent wattage. The bulb marketing departments tend to forget the power required for the power supply or ballast.
 

Stromberg

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I turned the lights off and reached to take the LED bulb from the lamp. I almost burnt my hand. The L0D CEs were barely warm. I figured the power supply of the LED must be generating all that extra heat. A very inefficient power supply.

It is possible but not necessarily so. I had this GU10 1 * Cree bulb:

http://www.led1.de/shop/product_inf...0-p-727&cName=highpower-p4xre-led-spots-c-168

..and it also got quite hot. Power supply was in plastic casing(not in contact with the heatsink) and there was no other significant thermal path to the heatsink. Only reason I could imagine was that the heatsink just can't dissipate heat to surrounding air very efficiently.

OTOH that's very interesting that your L0D's didn't get very warm. Are they colored black? I've heard that black heatsink dissipates heat better than bright aluminium or even brighter chromium surfaces. Or maybe there's significantly more surface area in those L0D's than in the replacement bulb. Are you willing to calculate? :)
 
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2xTrinity

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I base my 2/3 light transmission on tests done on M@gs on CPF. Stock Mags lose 1/3 of the light. Fenix which use high quality AR coated glass get 81% transmission.
So I do not believe cheap acrylic will give 85%.
You are comparing a sputtered aluminum reflector based light (Fenix) to a total-internal-reflection optic. Total internal reflection is an inherently more efficient process. A very high end glass TIR optic, with appropriate optical coatings can be made significantly over 90% efficiency. One with made with no coatings might be 80-85% efficient. Note these are ballpark, I don't know the specific numbers for the exact parts in question.

An aluminum reflector with similar narrow beam profile* and lumen-gathering capability of a TIR optic will may be 80% efficient with an AR-coated window in front, less wihtout an AR window.

Also, the effect of an AR coating is to block reflections off of the window. 4% of light reflected off the window in a refletor based light does NOT necessarily mean 4% lumen loss -- muhc of the light that reflects off of the glass window will reflect off the reflector and eventually make it back out as spill, though certainly that light will be less useful than light that would have made it as part of the original beam initially.


* In the fenix, most of the light never reaches the reflector surface due to the shallow reflector, and forward-emitting beam profile of the LED. The aluminum reflector coatings used in most flashlights are VERY lossy (evidenced by the fact that stock maglites lose so much, as you pointed out -- in the case of the incan, most of teh light DOES hit the reflector).

In a light like the Fenix, most of it flies straight out the front as spill thus lumen losses are less.

A good TIR optic will have both a reflecting surface, and a refracting surface (lens) to capture light, so that nearly all the emitter lumens are collimated as part of the beam. A reflector producing similr beam profile will need to be very very deep, and will be muhc lossier, all else equal.

I base my 2/3 light transmission on tests done on M@gs on CPF. Stock Mags lose 1/3 of the light.
Stock mags are incandescent lamps, thus they are omnidirectional light sources and and as such have yet another source of lumen loss compared to LEDs: the big hole at the bottom of the reflector.

Also, a bigger fraction of a light from an incan in a mag reflector will actually bounce off the reflector, compared to light from an LED in a mag reflctor. This meanas two things:

1) bighter main beam for the incan, given the same number of emitter/bulb lumens
2) more lumen loss because the aluminum reflector surface is lossy.

IMO this is why the rightful comparison should be between lights with comparable beam angles etc.


One other thing I like to mention.
I bought a 3*Cree bulb a year ago. I compared it to 3*L0D CE strapped together. The brightness level and beam pattern were the same. I turned the lights off and reached to take the LED bulb from the lamp. I almost burnt my hand. The L0D CEs were barely warm. I figured the power supply of the LED must be generating all that extra heat. A very inefficient power supply.
When comparing bulbs it is necessary to compare LED+power supply to CFL tube+ballast to incandescent wattage. The bulb marketing departments tend to forget the power required for the power supply or ballast.
This may not necessarily be because of an inefficient driver. My guess is the L0D's were being moved around in open air, and/or held in your hand.

If the L0D heats up to thep oint where it's warmer than your skin temperature, your hand will actually conduct away a huge amount of heat (your circulating blood will act like active liquid cooling.

I once ran an L0D-CE with LiIon in my hand down in 10 minutes. Barely got warm. I did the same test with one set down a table and nearly burned myself on it. Even larger, better heatsinked flashlights have become extremely hot to the touch when they've come on inside insulated jacket pockets etc.

OTOH that's very interesting that your L0D's didn't get very warm. Are they colored black? I've heard that black heatsink dissipates heat better than bright aluminium or even brighter chromium surfaces. Or maybe there's significantly more surface area in those L0D's than in the replacement bulb. Are you willing to calculate?
black objects will radiate energy much more efficiently. In a place with airflow, convection will probalby be a much more significant means of heat dissipation. As temp goes up, the significance of radiation goes up.

From Wikipedia:
534e81069048d35da8650da3e09eb147.png
where
637b205d0bd0410f461c3e7da32b2283.png
Emissivity of aluminum foil is 0.03, anodized aluminum is 0.77

Let's call the aluminum foil emmisivity an even "0"
Let's say total surface area of L0D is 10 square cm.
Let's say temperature of our L0D is 114F, or 45C, or 318k, and ambient temp is 70F, or 20C or 293k)

Additonal Power radiated due to anodized aluminum:

P = ( 0.001 sq-meter ) ( 0.77 )( 5.67e-8 )( 318^4 - 293^4) = 0.125 watts

An L0D CE running off a LiIon battery (would have to be to get that hot) would be dumping about 20x that much as waste heat. So the marginal effect of the anodize won't become significant unless the temperature of the device are hot enough to damage the LED (or the user for that matter)
 
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IMSabbel

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Did nobody notice that those low lumen values are only for the 3100 kelvin version?
 

LEDninja

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TIR optics are not normally more efficient than reflectors. Their main advantage is the ability to place a convex surface above the LED so that light that is usually unfocussed and forms the spill light in a reflector is now focussed as part of the main beam/hotspot. Hotspot intensity is much increased. No spill light. Lux goes up, lumens does not. That is why I ask how the tests that claim 85% efficiency is done.
One of CPF members who build high powered HID spotlights in Europe got 95% efficiency in a CUSTOM TIR. I doubt Philips would spend that kind of money for a consumer product.
 
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