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Thread: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

  1. #1
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    Default THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    OK, folks,

    I know I'm kinda new here, but I wanted to share a few thoughts with yall. (Your comments are also appreciated).

    First are the lanyard holes on the lights.

    Have you noticed that some of the lanyard holes are placed in the most akward places? On top of that, some of the holes are drilled "rough as heck," and are just itching to get your light lost. Let me give you an example: The Fenix TK11.

    This is my first "good quality" light. I am extremly happy with it, as well as being impressed with it's capabilities. But when I went to attach the lanyard...what the heck?!

    The holes are teeny-weeny.

    I know that there are not too many places to drill a hole to attach a lanyard...but geesh, at least make the holes so that they will not cut the lanyard if used.

    Here are a few shots of the lanyard holes on my Fenix TK11, as well as the lanyard that almost gave up the ghost. (And my light). And get this...it happened in a very short period of time.


    Below is the lanyard hole on the tactical ring:




    Below is the lanyard hole on the end cap:




    And below is the almost severed lanyard after only THREE HOURS!




    I was very surprised to see the lanyard in this condition after coming home from a few hours on the job. (I am a locksmith and safe technician).

    I do not want yall to think that I am "all that," so I am honestly telling you that I do not have the answer. But if the lamps come with holes drilled for a lanyard, maybe they should consider rounding-out or beveling the holes. It may be cost prohibitive...but if it's there, at least do it right.

    On to the next topic (LAMP MANUFACTURERS. LISTEN UP!)...the tactical rings.

    I think the tactical rings are a fantastic idea. Some of the customers who purchase these torches are handgun owners who will use these lights in conjunction with a handgun, and handgun training.

    The way I train and use my light in a tactical situation is dependant on the torch at hand. Sometimes I use the "Cigar Grip".

    The "Cigar Grip" is sweet.

    But here's my qualm...the placement of the tactical grip. It's in the wrong place.

    Below are a few pictures to help explain my madness.

    In the below picture, you can see me gripping my 1911 pistol. I am right-handed, so my left hand will be my support hand. (For stability and recoil control). Notice that my support hand (my left hand) is firmly wrapped around my firing hand.




    In the below picture, I have relaxed my support hand (left hand) to let you see how it is actually placed around my firing hand. This is how tight/close it should be to give the expected support.




    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Now that's a nice supportive grip.

    But now let's look at "Cigar Grip" whilst using the tactical ring on the Fenix TK11...or most any other tactical-carrying torch.




    With the Cigar Grip, the end cap switch is depressed with the back/knuckles of the firing hand fingers. But notice the big ole space in between my support fingers and my firing hand. Do you think that this is a comfortable firing position? Do you think this grip enables the support hand to "support" the firing hand? (Yea...maybee... with practice, practice, practice)! But is sure ain't "natural".

    I can assuredly tell you, that if you want this grip to work, you DEFINITELY need to train with it.

    Below is another picture of this Cigar Grip at a differnet angle.




    Look at the HUGE SPACE in between my support fingers and my firing hand.

    Here's my recommendation: Figure-out how to place the tactical ring nearer to the end cap. I know it may take some work, but if the tactical ring is gonna be placed there for the Cigar Grip...then make sure it can be used for that purpose. Otherwise it's just a pretty cool "Rambo/007 thingy used as a marketing gimmik".

    I don't know about yall, but do you see what I'm talking about? Am I wrong, and my hands just smallish?

    I think it can be done without too many complications, and will greatly benefit the shooters that actually train and shoot with this method.

    OK, that's my rant for the night.

    Toodle-Loo, yall.

    In Christ: Raymond
    Last edited by RaymondMillbrae; 12-07-2008 at 06:15 AM. Reason: Because me Mama told me so

  2. #2
    Flashaholic crocodilo's Avatar
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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    This may seem stupid, but why don't you try a split ring (around 6-10mm) on the lanyard hole, and then a 550 paracord directly through the split ring, or with a small gate clip (SF way)... Sure, in time the split ring will wear the anno a bit, but that's acceptable.
    EDC: mostly Surefires. At work: Spectrolab Nightsun mounted on an EH101!

  3. #3

    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Your Rogers/Cigar hold technique is incorrect. Tailcap button actuation is via the fleshy part of the support palm below the thumb. You don't press the button against the knuckles of the firing hand. The bottom 3 fingers of the support hand provide the grip for the two-hand hold.

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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Quote Originally Posted by crocodilo View Post
    This may seem stupid, but why don't you try a split ring (around 6-10mm) on the lanyard hole, and then a 550 paracord directly through the split ring, or with a small gate clip (SF way)... Sure, in time the split ring will wear the anno a bit, but that's acceptable.
    Thats exactly what I'm doing now.

    In Christ: Raymond

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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    Your Rogers/Cigar hold technique is incorrect. Tailcap button actuation is via the fleshy part of the support palm below the thumb. You don't press the button against the knuckles of the firing hand. The bottom 3 fingers of the support hand provide the grip for the two-hand hold.
    The above way is how I've always done it.

    If I use my palm/lower part of my thumb to depress the button, the light is naturally pointed at an angle when immediately grabbed and positioned.

    I guess have "smallish hands".

    In Christ: Raymond

  6. #6

    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    I also use weak split rings or little SF style clips as stated above. If they get caught on something they can still break away without taking your arm with them.

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    Flashaholic* Cuso's Avatar
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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    That's why a I never use those flimsy cheap lanyards included on those lights, if its not made out of 550 paracord, its not a lanyard.... And I've seen McGizmo lights attached to those,

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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuso View Post
    That's why a I never use those flimsy cheap lanyards included on those lights...
    x2... The higher end Surefires come with a very serviceable lanyard setup.



    The small wrist lanyards included with most chinese lights need a small split ring to be of any use.
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    *Flashaholic* StarHalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS


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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    You can't expect those cheap lanyards to last on anything but a lightweight cell phone (and even then they're iffy). Get a good lanyard (paracord hopefully) and use a metal clip to attach it to the light.

    Slightly off topic, but it does help if you do not cross your thumbs like that. It helps with wrapping your hands better around the grip (meaning more control), and with operating the safety.

    Also, just 'cuz there's a "cigar grip ring" doesn't mean that's the only way you can hold a light together with a gun. There's a really good thread (somewhere on CPF) with pics showing all the possible variations of light grips.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Ha ha,

    that's pretty funny that you mentioned the crossed thumbs.

    First-off, I was sitting at my desk, with the camera in front of me on a small tripod, and both my arms wrapped around the camera and tripod trying to reach around to the front of it. I was in a weird position trying to grasp the weapon, hold the light, and look through the camera's LCD screen at the same time.

    It was kinda like the game "Twister".

    Secondly, I lost part of my thumb playing with my motorcycle, and I was kinda trying to hide it. Ha ha ha.

    Thirdly, I have always used two methods of tactical light carry with a pistol. One is the above-mentioned, modified form, of the Cigar Grip. And the second is the Police overhand grab. (Pistol, forward and pointed in one hand. And light held above my head and to the left, with the other hand).

    Pistol and arms held close to the chest, modified Cigar Grip, Groucho Marx walk, was the norm while I was a Ranger. (We found too many weaknesses with the crossed hand technique). But that was another time, another life.

    Thanks!

    In Christ: Raymond
    Last edited by RaymondMillbrae; 12-07-2008 at 12:55 PM.

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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Quote Originally Posted by RaymondMillbrae View Post
    snip snip...

    Here's my recommendation: Figure-out how to place the tactical ring nearer to the end cap. I know it may take some work, but if the tactical ring is gonna be placed there for the Cigar Grip...then make sure it can be used for that purpose. Otherwise it's just a pretty cool "Rambo/007 thingy used as a marketing gimmik".

    I don't know about yall, but do you see what I'm talking about? Am I wrong, and my hands just smallish?

    I think it can be done without too many complications, and will greatly benefit the shooters that actually train and shoot with this method.

    did you try the surefire combat rings?

  13. #13

    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    salt water zink coated fishing swivel, rustproof and easy removal. i got the idea from another thread on CPF so i can't take credit.


  14. #14

    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Agree with Jeffa, you want a lanyard to break away, if necessary, especially in a close encounter.

    I personally don't use a lanyard just so I don't have the flashlight swinging around when things get a little crazy. Drop it, free up your hand and you can pick it up (or go to your backup) when things are a little more under control.

    The technique the original poster shows is a technique that was first described to me by Novatac in their instructions--the 'Somebody's name here' technique, I forget who. It's not the Surefire/Rogers technique. I think it's the technique that the former Air Marshal used when developing the Surefire Combat Rings according to the latest Surefire Combat Tactics magazine for exactly the reason Raymond is talking about.

    I don't know. The flashlight, unless its mounted to the gun, is always going to degrade shooting accuracy. What is the necessity of lighting the threat versus getting accurate shots off? That's a decision you'll have to make in the moment. I slammed the trigger when shooting plates at night with my First Light Liberator missing shot after shot that should have been easy with two hands on the gun. If your light is needed just to see a threat, you have to use it throughout the situation. If it is only needed to identify someone as a threat, you might be able to ditch it and shoot under ambient light with both hands firmly on the gun. Getting hits is always the priority.

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    Flashaholic* Solscud007's Avatar
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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    There is a really good article in Tactical Gear magazine. However i already knew what the author was explaining. He is a swat officer with 28 years of service.

    Anyway what he says, and I have already learned from airsoft and Surfire is this.

    1. Tactical lights on a weapon should NOT be used to illuminate a target. Such in the case of searching. Dangerous to use the pistol light as primary means of light. In this case the mounted light is then used as an offensive disorientation/blinding tool for added advantage. Say for home owner who is defending his life. The home owner knows the layout of the house and is rarely "searching" for the intruder. the light then is used to blind the perp and partially illuminate them. the other case is aggressive force entering a room as LEO. Which goes back to the idea of tactical advantage.

    2. People shoot at the light. Hence the Chicago style aka FBI search modified method of moving the light away from the body. there is no such thing as one good technique. each circumstance will determine what method of grip you will use.

    Of course two hands is a very stable platform for long distance shooting. But you may not always have your hand handy for a two handed grip. So there is the school of thought to train and practice to use one hand. SF institute teaches that as well as to shift your grip. This is for searching. but you switch from right handed to left handed depending on the corner you are attacking and searching. so as to expose as little of your body as possible.

    In the case of being under stress there is the neck index method. which aligns the sights, light, and weapon on target. but this puts the light close to your neck and will draw attention.

    Pretty much you need to be aware of what is the appropriate situation for a light. weapon mounted lights are nice but they are not always what you need.
    Collecting is not about what you have but rather what you DONT have . . . yet.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    RaymondMillbrae The technique your are describing is the Hargreaves Lite-Touch Technique mated with the Chapman technique. Many of these techniques are described in detail by Ken Good in "Strategies of Low Light Engagements". If anybody is interested it is a great book, kind of hard to get, you have to search for it.

    I like your idea of moving a split ring to the recess nearset the activation button on the TK-11. I had never thought of this before but then your technique which is a spin off of the above technique(s) would be very stable and useful.

    I use many techinques for different situations and also many different lanyards from the Surefire Combat Rings, to traditional wrist lanyards although never more than 8" long, when they are too long they become unwieldly. 550 cord is something I also use but the link from cord to light must be giving enough to allow the light to break away if your adversary gets hold of it so that you can break away if necessary.

    I like the SureFire laynards but never use the clip as I have found them to stick open due the mechanical hinge getting "gunked up" and have dropped several lights from them. I replace them with similar clips but of an older one piece design (not sure how else to describe them). I like The Sun's idea of "
    salt water zink coated fishing swivel" but do not know how much pressure it would take to break free the light if necessary.

    I also use handgun mounted lights and have trained to swap light and gun dependant on which side of barricade I come out on.

    Solscud007 had a very good post and I believe him to be accurate.

    As stated by Massad Ayoob in his book “Stressfire”, “Notice that lighting up the target so you can hit it better is the least of the reasons for coordinating the pistol with the flashlight. That coordination is, in most cases, so awkward that you will hit better in the dark, if there is any ambient light at all, by using both hands on the pistol and junking the torch. The flashlight is there for tactical reasons, not reasons of marksmanship.”

    That is the benefit of a light or lights similar to the TK-11, very good throw and great spill. We do not have to worry about placing the hot spot of the beam on the adversary we just need to have enough spill to positively id whether the potential adversary is a threat or not.

    Your choice of lanyards, rings and techniques are endless you should be well versed choose a couple that suit you and become proficient.

    Great conversation thanks.










  17. #17

    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    The demonstrated technique actually looks like a mix of the Rogers/cigar technique with the Hargreaves method:

    http://www.surefire.com/articles-handheld_techniques
    http://www.nrapublications.org/si/HB_handgun.html

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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Quote Originally Posted by Solscud007 View Post
    There is a really good article in Tactical Gear magazine. However i already knew what the author was explaining. He is a swat officer with 28 years of service.

    Anyway what he says, and I have already learned from airsoft and Surfire is this.

    1. Tactical lights on a weapon should NOT be used to illuminate a target. Such in the case of searching. Dangerous to use the pistol light as primary means of light. In this case the mounted light is then used as an offensive disorientation/blinding tool for added advantage. Say for home owner who is defending his life. The home owner knows the layout of the house and is rarely "searching" for the intruder. the light then is used to blind the perp and partially illuminate them. the other case is aggressive force entering a room as LEO. Which goes back to the idea of tactical advantage.

    2. People shoot at the light. Hence the Chicago style aka FBI search modified method of moving the light away from the body. there is no such thing as one good technique. each circumstance will determine what method of grip you will use.
    What "expert" stated this? It's, on its face, incorrect and illogical, but beyond the scope of this post.

    The big trend of grip rings, which was first seen on Night-Op's Gladius may have it's place, but almost all of them are incorrectly placed on the light, or have numerous sharp edges that interfere with a good, solid grip. IMO, they were put there as nothing more than a selling point. The same goes for all the pointy bezels. Those are almost useless to 99% of the people who will be using the light, and are really only good for putting holes in your clothes.

    The best light/gun retention technique I've seen is the Tiger Ring concept by Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch. This set up can be seen on Streamlight's Thunder Ranch model TL-2.

    -dan
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  19. #19
    Flashaholic* Hitthespot's Avatar
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    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    You may want to look at these?

    First Light USA Tomahawk.

    I copied this from their listed specs:
    • with your Tomahawk securely wrapped around your finger, you're able to perform any task you want including shooting with a proper two-handed grip, climbing, handling equipment and much more..............


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  20. #20

    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Quote Originally Posted by dano View Post
    The best light/gun retention technique I've seen is the Tiger Ring concept by Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch. This set up can be seen on Streamlight's Thunder Ranch model TL-2.
    I believe that Tiger McKee is the originator of the Tiger Ring (hence the name).

    For me, I would not use a hard ring like a metal or even strong plastic ring to make a Tiger Ring. I would use a soft, rubber o-ring or similar. IMO, the risk of a degloving injury when grappling with someone is a serious consideration. I assume that the Streamlight TL-2 uses a soft ring.
    Last edited by Justin Case; 12-23-2008 at 01:09 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: THOUGHTS ON TACTICAL RINGS AND LANYARDS

    Justin Case, I stand corrected It is Rogers/Surefire/Cigar. The Chapman is performed with a side push button.

    I also did not know about the "Tiger" ring although I have been using a similar ring made from 550 cord for years. We started using the rings from our flash bangs a long time ago but they tend to hurt the sides of the fingers so we began cutting a strip of 550 sewing it into a ring and using that. It isn't as user friendly as the new SF Combat Rings but fits in your pocket a lot nicer.

    I got to come up with something so I can name it also, I'm beginning to feel left out.

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