Just a question about the M2.
Why is it so much more expensive than an Z2,C2 or even a C3 if it uses the same p60/61 LAs as the other 6 volts? What is the advatage of the bezel and why are people putting it on their other lights? Thanks
I totally agree with tkl, unless you are gonna completely beat the crap out of the light, the C2 is still rugged and offers a smaller signature for EDC. It's what I carry daily. M2's beam is very similar anyhow.
I bet chamenos will concur, I believe he just sold the M2 bezel he'd bought for his C2, maybe he'll share his thoughts.
I think the M2 is one of the few Surefires that are waterproof 'out of the box'. Prolly worth the 50% or so price premium over the D/C2 if you and your flashlight are around water a lot.
All that needs to be added to the C2 to make it match the waterproof level of the M2 (barring a leaky bezel assembly which has been know to happen on many models) is a $.20 O-ring in the groove next to the tailcap threading on the body, the two lights share the same body with different engraving, hardly worth the price difference.
i definitely concur! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
i feel the M2 is a bit over-rated, as it is simply a souped up C2. the C2 has the exacty same body as the M2, just with different laser etchings. the M2 is also not the most waterproof surefire out-of-the-box. i speak from experience because mine came with a leaking bezel. the M2 would probably be as water-resistant (or not) as all the other models. i have had better experiences with lexan bezels though, since none of them have ever leaked on me. i get the feeling that what seals the bezel on an M2 bezel is the loctite or hot-glue in the threads of the nylon retaining ring, rather than the O-ring underneath the lens. someone correct me if i'm wrong.
i also found the M2 too bulky for EDC, and the SIS bezel is actually designed to protect the lamp from the back and forth motion caused by the recoil of a firearm. if you drop your M2 and it lands on its side, the SIS bezel isn't going to help much. in fact i've dropped my C2 numerous times, sometimes hard enough to put dents in the bezel or tailcap, and the lamp hasn't failed.
the light output is also identical, since both the M2 and C2 use the same lamp assemblies. in fact the C2 would have a larger side spill of light because the lamp assembly is not as recessed as it would be in the M2 bezel. both the M2 and C2 now come with pyrex bezels, so the point about the M2 having a pyrex lens with better heat resistance and light transmission is also now moot.
the best part about the C2 is that if after getting it you decide you would have rather had an M2, simply add on an extra O-ring on the tailcap end of the barrel (which can be requested from surefire CS), order an M2 bezel and P61 lamp assembly and you have an M2. this would be better than buying the M2, then realizing later that you have a white elephant on your hands (like i did).
i've been carrying my C2 for about 4 months now, and i'm completely satisfied with it. i've brought it down to the bottom of a swimming pool, throw it into the washing machine together with the laundry, and it has never failed me. lots of character marks, but no leaking or blown lamps [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
The C2 and M2 bodies are not the same the last time I checked with PK. The M2 has tighter seals. The M2 bezel is more watertight. Leaking M2 bezels should be returned to SureFire for replacement. SureFire have changed the M2 bezel seals again a while back. I'll put money on leaking bezels being the older versions.
You are correct about the M2 Shock Isolation being designed to protect the lamp against weapon-mounted recoil. However, I have pushed the M2 shock isolation to it's limits in abusive field-testing and found the only SureFire can comes close is the G2Z.
It's great that your C2 performs. SureFires perform. The number that have problems is very small. SureFire can't fix what they don't know about so I urge that any problems or issues with SureFires be raised with SureFire so they can work them out.
Thanks
Al [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Al, if they are not the same body then what is with the extraneous O-ring groove on the C2 and what do "tighter seals" consist of since the seals on the body are O-rings. Does the M2 have "special" O-rings? We aren't talking about the tailcap (which appears to be the same exact tailcap as well) or bezel (which the M2 bezel fits solidly on both lights) here. Side by side the body looks exactly the same. I bet if we were to put the old digital calipers on them they would have similiar tolerance too. Why would they manufacture a separate body for two lights requiring the exact same body style. I don't buy the different body story especially since the body's are both machined for the two O-rings and only one provides them both, the bodies for both these models come from the same production runs and are engraved and assembled as separate models, it would be wasteful to divide the production of the bodies like that. Maybe a slightly larger O-ring but that defies logic too. I am sure there are quite a few parts that are common to several models that are produced in batch and then seperated for finish or componental differences. Surefire would not be too bright if they didn't do this to speed production and reduce the strain that too many model specific parts would put on an inventory system.
"[i]the body's are both machined for the two O-rings...[i]"
So? The Classic old 6P's I have feature this too from years ago.
"...and only one [o-ring] provides them both..."
Wrong according to my information. The standard o-ring for the standard metal bodies is the same.
The additional o-ring for the M2 is the one from the G2 which is different from the standard o-ring.
"...the bodies for both these models come from the same production runs..."
You know this for a fact do you?
How SureFire produce batches of parts - you'd need to have toured SureFire to get a better picture.
I tell you what, I'll check with my source at SureFire.
1) Are the C2 and M2 bodies different?
2) Is the M2 designed to be more water-tight?
3) How often do you tweek the designs?
I'd like to know for certain now too!
Al [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
actually i suspect the extra groove for the O-ring wasn't meant for an O-ring, but was just part of the machining process when forming the threads. the 1x123 TSP on my arc LSH-P also has the extra groove for the O-ring, and in a thread which raised this issue peter gransee said it was merely an "extension for the threads". check it out here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubb...o=&fpart=1
i moved the O-ring to the second groove and it didn't get eaten up by the threads or anything of that sort.
Al: the M2 i had a while back had two of the exact same O-rings as far as i could tell visually. in any case, since both the C2 and M2 (and all the other 6P derivatives) share the same tailcap threads, adding the special G2 O-ring would not be a problem.
there was a short period of time when i had both the M2 and my current C2, i examined them side by side and they had the exact same body except for the different laser etchings. both had the gold chemcote interior and identical dimensions. i think what tsg said does make a lot of sense too. they might or might not come from the same production runs, but they almost definitely have the exact same design. the same probably goes with the E2e and E2o bodies as well. in any case do let us know what you find out [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I have confirmed that current M2 and C2 bodies are the same.
I'm sorry. I was wrong.
Al [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
P.S.
I have not managed to confirm whether both M2 TailCap o-rings are the same currently, or whether the M2 and C2 bodies were different at any time in the past.
I have an older 6P for which I purchased a LOTC upgrade. I tried putting a second o-ring on there, but the tailcap would not turn all the way down. Looking at the threads of the tailcap of the 6P LOTC and the M2 LOTC, they are different. There are more threads on the 6P LOTC one.
I also tried a second o-ring on my G2Z, but encountered the same problem.
I haven't had other similar lights (D2, C2, etc), but have EDCed my M2 for quite a while (inside left pants pocket, clipped in). While it's bigger than other lights like the E2E and Scorpion, I don't find it too big. However, I think a holster is a good option to have for when you are wearing pockets that tight, like jeans.
I purchased my M2 since it was pretty thing the most bulletproof light out there and for EDC I want the most reliable light I can get. Specifically the shock isolated bezel and water resistance.
I actually recently lost my M2 (I think it came out of my pocket while I was crawling around, cleaning a car I sold) and I've just ordered a replacement M2. I didn't consider any other light.
Hey Al, with the information that the G2 utilizes a thicker O-ring I must admit that I may be wrong as well. It would probably offer a better seal to utilize a thicker O-ring in the M2 the question is, do they? Would that then also be the case with the M3? If it is indeed the case, why don't they just utilize the larger O-rings in the C2 as well? I don't think it would be a cost issue as there couldn't be much of a price difference in the O-rings. I too, am interested in the answers.
Here are a few more questions for you, since I wouldn't have a clue. What design or assembly difference makes the M2 bezel more waterproof than other bezels and would there be a way of obtaining a C2 bezel built to the same resistant standard? Also Does the C3 have an extra O-ring groove as well, despite it utilizing a different production design? Someone considering the purchase of one might be served by knowing the answer as to whether they could in fact improve the water resistance of the light with the simple addition of an O-ring.
The additional o-ring is a different size because it's location is a different size from the standard o-ring location. (I think it's a bit wider channel right?)
Just so we're clear - I think the location of the G2 TailCap o-ring and the location of the addition TailCap o-ring are larger than the standard location on metal bodies therefore requiring larger o-rings.
I do not believe it is the case that a larger o-ring is being used instead of the standard o-ring.
It is only the additional o-ring that needs to be larger because the location for it is larger.
It is my understanding that all the tailcap ends of all the standard body Aluminium SureFires feature this channel which on some models is used to hold an additional o-ring
The M2 bezel was changed as happens all the time to form a tighter seal. Whether the C2 bezel was also changed I do not know.
The additional o-ring had the part number 19-01-077 rather than the standard o-ring which was part number 19-01-040. These part numbers are a couple years old and may have been updated.
The additional o-ring allows you to rotate the TailCap underwater.
You are correct, Al, thanks. The O-rings listed are still the same, as my light is of recent manufacture. The rear O ring on the C2 (19-01-040) is consistent with the rear (front) O-ring on the M2, M3 models, and the rear O-ring on the G2 (19-01-077) is consistent with the rear (end) O-ring on the M2, M3 models.
So if I wanted to make my C2 more water resistant in use (barring any bezel leaks) I could order part 19-01-077 and I would have the second position filled on the tailcap end.
I take it that the option of the addition of this O-ring to other aluminum models is probably what assists in making a light N certified if special ordered (I know they would still have to assemble an N certified bezel and test the whole light to pass), or do they add a second O-ring to the body at the bezel as well?
Forgive the continuation off topic but I'm pretty curious now.
okay, everybody has spent too much time on this thread. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] go do something productive. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif[/img]
Al: thanks for the information. we all make mistakes at one point of time or another [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Skyline: that's odd...i have a 6P which when equipped with a second O-ring worked fine with the LOTC.
tsg: i'll have to compare the G2's O-ring with the C2's once i get that G2. botach still hasn't shipped out my order yet though [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] hope they haven't run out of stock [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
I have an older 6P for which I purchased a LOTC upgrade. I tried putting a second o-ring on there, but the tailcap would not turn all the way down. Looking at the threads of the tailcap of the 6P LOTC and the M2 LOTC, they are different. There are more threads on the 6P LOTC one.
I also tried a second o-ring on my G2Z, but encountered the same problem.
LOL. I sure have a lot of spare o-rings.
[/ QUOTE ]
Skyline,
I never bought o-rings. Can you recommend a source?
Chamenos, what Al posted about the two different sizes is correct, the forward position on the tail of the body takes the standard size O-ring that is used in the 6V and 9V personal lights while the rear position takes the slightly thicker O-ring that the G2 uses, Al stated that the larger O-ring in the rear position insures that you can turn the tailcap without leakage when the light is submerged, I checked the parts list and the numbers he listed are consistent and current. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
I am sorry about your order from Botach, they may have sold out of what was on hand, but they get stock back in pretty quick, at least on the easy stuff like G2's, hard to get stuff like the KL3 forget it, they told me to keep emailing to check to see if they got it in now I'm glad cause I can pick up a KL5 when they come out (I do think the KL3 looks cool though) . Hang in there, If they knew they wouldn't be getting more soon you would have seen the words "out of stock" on your confirmation.
alright thanks tsg [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] i suppose since i placed the order when the deal was still available they'll honour it? knowing that the G2 and the surefire batteries are easily available is comforting though. at the moment i'm still waiting on them to email me with the shipping options.
anyway i checked the two O-rings on my C2, and it appears the extra one i added which surefire sent me is the same...i'll have to get one of those G2 O-rings [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Upon further inspection, I don't think it's the threads on the 6P LOTC. It may be the depth of the channel for the second oring on my 6P. The channel is shallower than on my M2, so the o-ring sticks out too much. Here are some largish pics. I also have the high resolution originals if anyone is interested.
Surefire M2 Question
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