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Thread: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

  1. #661
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    ^^ No 18650 in the tests?
    Solarforce L2 Black, L2 Grey

  2. #662
    Flashaholic Midnight Oil's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    I got a bit confused after reading several posts...

    Does the operating voltage range of a P60 drop-in indicate which kind of driver it has? For example, I see a drop-in designed for 1 AA, 2AAs, and 1 18650 that is rated for 0.8V-4.2V.

    Does this mean this drop-in has a boost circuit so that the output will be the same for all 3 battery configurations.

    Does it also mean output is regulated for all 3 battery configurations until the voltage falls below 0.8V and the light goes into direct drive?

    Another related question...

    Do some P60 drop-ins have a low-voltage protection mechanism that turns off the light to prevent the Li-Ion battery or batteries from over-discharging, while others that don't simply fall out of regulation, go into direct drive, and allow the battery or batteries to continue powering the light with dimming output?

    Thanks.

  3. #663
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post
    I got a bit confused after reading several posts...

    Does the operating voltage range of a P60 drop-in indicate which kind of driver it has? For example, I see a drop-in designed for 1 AA, 2AAs, and 1 18650 that is rated for 0.8V-4.2V.

    Does this mean this drop-in has a boost circuit so that the output will be the same for all 3 battery configurations.

    Does it also mean output is regulated for all 3 battery configurations until the voltage falls below 0.8V and the light goes into direct drive?

    Another related question...

    Do some P60 drop-ins have a low-voltage protection mechanism that turns off the light to prevent the Li-Ion battery or batteries from over-discharging, while others that don't simply fall out of regulation, go into direct drive, and allow the battery or batteries to continue powering the light with dimming output?

    Thanks.
    No , lets say solarforce 0.8v - 4.2v drop in ..

    With a single AA it will do about 80 lumen , if you feed it higher quality AA's it may go as high as 100 Lumen ..

    2 x AA may give you around 180Lumen up to over 200 depending on the batteries ...

    Its just not current but also voltage ..

    Lets talk 5W emitter ... 1.5v x Amps = 5W [ 3.33333 Amps ]
    A single AA simply cant do 3.33333 Amps , so no way are you going to see full power ..

    2xAA = 3v so = 3v x Amps = 5Watts [ 1.66666Amps ] Now this is doable

    4.2v battery x Amps = 5W [ 1.19Amps ]

    Now here is the thing , those 3mode low voltage drop ins suck more than that , in fact my good one is more like 1.7A with a 4.2 = 7.14W

    Now this is over simplified , but I hope you get the idea ...

    My best guess , is the Solarforce low voltage driver is direct driver until you hit 3.7v [ maybe ] and then it boosts ...

    The older 3v-4.2v Solarforce drivers were direct drive , but once you hit 3v the inbuilt protection would simply turn the light off ..
    No light under 3v , [ possibly just the LED very slightly glowing ]

    A lot of the 3v-4.2v and 3v-8.4v drivers have protection built in that starts at 3v ... Not all , but most of them , at least the ones I have ...

    The 0.8v to 4.2v , I guess it means the protection will cut in at 0.8v and the light wont work any more ... [ Havent run a AA down that far with the SF LV drop in ]
    Last edited by old4570; 04-25-2010 at 02:25 AM.

  4. #664
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    I'd love a P60 drop-in that will protect 18650 cells at 2.8v but also has a LOW low mode and is fully regulated down to 2.8v. I don't think it exists.
    Solarforce L2 Black, L2 Grey

  5. #665
    Flashaholic* kosPap's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Superorb View Post
    ^^ No 18650 in the tests?
    no, it was not convenient.....if these modules ARE direct drive, performance can be a bit higher with the 18650.....

    Midnight Oil this is for you, it explains things on the multimodes perfectly

    Solarforce R2-M 3-mode measurements...



    Sorry guys I was too lazy to put them in a proper table...thsi comes from my notebook and was writen/scribed on of my thigh....

    Notes
    Lux are what I mesaured in MY lightbox....
    A Solarforce flat head was used (for the earlier measurements too)...the toothed one drops output in my box by 7-10? percent....(cuts down spill)
    For a close approximation of actual lumens you can use this chart

    enjoy, kostas
    Last edited by kosPap; 04-25-2010 at 11:34 AM.

  6. #666
    Flashaholic* Paul_in_Maryland's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 regulated 2.8-4.2V with low mode

    Quote Originally Posted by Superorb View Post
    I'd love a P60 drop-in that will protect 18650 cells at 2.8v but also has a LOW low mode and is fully regulated down to 2.8v. I don't think it exists.
    You might find what you're looking for in Thrunite's XP-G 1.5A low-voltage 3-stage module. According to flashlightconnection.com, it's regulated from 2.8 to 4.2V. But according to another dealer's Web page (I forget which one), it's regulated from 3.6 to 4.2V. I'm sure the truth is displayed in the label, but neither site shows the label.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  7. #667
    Flashaholic* Paul_in_Maryland's Avatar
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    Default Re: How bright on one non-lithium AA cell?

    Quote Originally Posted by old4570 View Post
    No , lets say solarforce 0.8v - 4.2v drop in ..

    With a single AA it will do about 80 lumen , if you feed it higher quality AA's it may go as high as 100 Lumen ..

    ... My best guess , is the Solarforce low voltage driver is direct driver until you hit 3.7v [ maybe ] and then it boosts ...
    I can't speak to the Solarforce. But I do own two Dereelight XP-G modules:

    2.8-4.2V, 1-stage, 1.2A to the LED
    0.9-4.2V, 3-stage, 1.5A to the LED

    I run the 2.8-4.2V version with three NiMH AAs (3.7V under load).
    I run the 0.9-4.2V version with one NiZn AA (1.6V under load).
    The latter at 1.6V appears to be 80 percent as bright as the former on 3.7V.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  8. #668
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    Default Re: P60 regulated 2.8-4.2V with low mode

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_in_Maryland View Post
    You might find what you're looking for in Thrunite's XP-G 1.5A low-voltage 3-stage module. According to flashlightconnection.com, it's regulated from 2.8 to 4.2V. But according to another dealer's Web page (I forget which one), it's regulated from 3.6 to 4.2V. I'm sure the truth is displayed in the label, but neither site shows the label.
    It's only regulated down to 3.6v as per the manufacturer's website, so I don't even know why they mention 2.8-4.2v unless it protects LiIon cells which I haven't heard. I have read that the low mode is pretty low though. I might have to take the plunge even though it's triple the cost of the host
    Solarforce L2 Black, L2 Grey

  9. #669
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    I'm having some issues with my DX SKU: 11836.
    The switch sometimes doesn't want to turn on the light. I have to give it a whack to get it to connect.
    It's the way the LA sits in my 6P. I tried it with a single coil of the outer spring, and it'll switch on everytime, but with it on, I can't fully screw down the bezel.

    Anyone else have this issue, and a possible fix?


    On that note. At the time (09/20/2008), it was one of the more well regarded DX P60 1-mode drop-ins. Anyone have a suggestion on something better? It does run warm, but it blasts out a lot of light. I'm running AW's LiFePO4s.
    Last edited by Dan Ching; 04-26-2010 at 09:38 PM.

  10. #670
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ching View Post
    I'm having some issues with my DX SKU: 11836.
    The switch sometimes doesn't want to turn on the light. I have to give it a whack to get it to connect.
    It's the way the LA sits in my 6P. I tried it with a single coil of the outer spring, and it'll switch on everytime, but with it on, I can't fully screw down the bezel.

    Anyone else have this issue, and a possible fix?
    .

    seems you got to cope with the not-fully screw down the bezel. it ahs been an issue for some time with various modules...One culprit has been the length of the brass pill (how much it extends below the reflector) Either it is too long (unsolvable) or you can screw in the pill a bit more

  11. #671
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    take the big spring off and smash in some aluminum coke can
    strips or aluminum foil or wrap it with copper tape.

    it should make contact then and have better heat transfer +
    you can screw it down the whole way.

    also, screw the pill further into the reflector but be
    careful not to smash the emitter

  12. #672
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    Default Re: P60 regulated 2.8-4.2V with low mode

    Quote Originally Posted by Superorb View Post
    It's only regulated down to 3.6v as per the manufacturer's website, so I don't even know why they mention 2.8-4.2v unless it protects LiIon cells which I haven't heard.D
    Superorb is correct; the manufacturer's page for the low-voltage 1.5A XP-G is here. Thanks for clearing this up. I guess I'll wait for the Dereelight 1.5A XP-G...which, I trust, will be regulated from 0.9V to 4.2V. Accordig to distributor FlashCrazy, it will be made in 1-stage (1S) only.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  13. #673
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    Default Re: P60 regulated 2.8-4.2V with low mode

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_in_Maryland View Post
    Superorb is correct; the manufacturer's page for the low-voltage 1.5A XP-G is here. Thanks for clearing this up. I guess I'll wait for the Dereelight 1.5A XP-G...which, I trust, will be regulated from 0.9V to 4.2V. Accordig to distributor FlashCrazy, it will be made in 1-stage (1S) only.
    According to Thrunite it does not offer protection for LiIon cells either on the 2.7-4.2v drop-ins
    Solarforce L2 Black, L2 Grey

  14. #674
    Flashaholic Midnight Oil's Avatar
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    Help Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Thanks for the data, kosPap.

    Thanks of the detailed answers, Old4570
    Last edited by Midnight Oil; 04-29-2010 at 08:34 AM.

  15. #675
    Flashaholic Midnight Oil's Avatar
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    Help Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    I asked Dave (Nailbender) about his XPG and XRE drop-ins and this is what he has to say:

    Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

    Dave, or anyone else who knows, so Dave can keep building,

    For the following drop-ins...

    XREs 3.6-(6/8.4)V regulated 3-mode

    XPGs 3.6-(6/8.4)V & 1-4.2V regulated 3-mode

    1. At what voltages will they fall out of regulation?


    Sorry I don't have this information, they are regular buck drivers that work fine for 18650 or 2XCR123
    1. Do the XPGs 1-4.2V also have a boost driver?
    Yes they have to be boost drivers other wise you could not run a single at that is 1/2 the voltage as the VF of led.


    I'll be using a single protected 18650.

    If using a 18650 don't order the boost driver as the buck drivers will work better. IMHO


    I've read VidPro's post in HKJ's thread about leds and voltages. He explains that for a given discharged capacity (in other words, how many mAh is still left in the cell), a cell registers different voltages depending on the rate at which it has been discharged: the higher the discharge rate, the lower the voltage registered, and vice versa. I've seen discharge curves for identical cells at different current draws, and they coincide with VidPro's statement. Furthermore, voltage readings also vary among brands: at an identical remaining capacity and having been discharged at the same rate, different brands can register drastically different voltages.

    As such, it sounds like in order to maximize runtime before reaching the drop-in cut-off voltage, I should select the operation voltage range of the drop-in based on how I'll use the light: a lower cut-off voltage if I'll be using the light at its highest setting all the time (high draw), and a higher cut-off voltage if I'll be using the light at the mid to low settings (low draw) most of the time?

    I've been searching for my first drop-in based on my interpretations above; please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken. I thought the Nailbender XPG 1-4.2V drop-in would be perfect for (1) 18650 because it had a boost circuit that would continue to power the light on high even if the battery voltage dropped to say 3.2V, which would still be above the over-discharge voltage limit for high draw. On the other hand, the Thrunite drop-in mentioned in the previous posts would have already gone into DD by the time the voltage dropped to 3.2V. As a result, I thought though the Nailbender might not be as bright as the Thrunite on high, I would get more runtime out of it and it's already pretty darn bright.

    After reading Nailbender's response, I'm confused. In what ways will running the 3.6-(6/8.4V) version on (1) 18650 be better? I'm thinking it will cutoff at 3.6V, which is a lot sooner than say 3.0V which is possible with the 1-4.2V version.

  16. #676
    Flashaholic Midnight Oil's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    A different question regarding the Thrunite drop-in mentioned in the previous posts. The specs say it will go into DD @ 3.6V. That happens only if the light is left on the high mode whose Vf is higher than 3.6V right? If, @ 3.6V, I switch to the low mode, which has a much lower Vf, the buck circuit will kick it again and the light will no longer be in DD right?

  17. #677
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    How efficient are nailbender's drop ins vs sandwich shoppe's shark buck?

  18. #678

    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by tsask View Post
    BatteryJunction has a 3 level SST-50 drop in. It ships from the State of Conneticut in the USA. I ordered one with the 6P UltraFire.
    Thanks for the tip


    If it didn't have strobe I would have purchased one. I read memory advances to next mode each time you turn it on so sometimes it will start in strobe. Very bad IMO. Strobe should be hidden or absent IMO

  19. #679
    Flashaholic* psychbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Oil View Post
    I asked Dave (Nailbender) about his XPG and XRE drop-ins and this is what he has to say:

    Originally Posted by Midnight Oil

    Dave, or anyone else who knows, so Dave can keep building,

    For the following drop-ins...

    XREs 3.6-(6/8.4)V regulated 3-mode

    XPGs 3.6-(6/8.4)V & 1-4.2V regulated 3-mode


    1. At what voltages will they fall out of regulation?



    Sorry I don't have this information, they are regular buck drivers that work fine for 18650 or 2XCR123
    1. Do the XPGs 1-4.2V also have a boost driver?

    Yes they have to be boost drivers other wise you could not run a single at that is 1/2 the voltage as the VF of led.


    I'll be using a single protected 18650.

    If using a 18650 don't order the boost driver as the buck drivers will work better. IMHO


    I've read VidPro's post in HKJ's thread about leds and voltages. He explains that for a given discharged capacity (in other words, how many mAh is still left in the cell), a cell registers different voltages depending on the rate at which it has been discharged: the higher the discharge rate, the lower the voltage registered, and vice versa. I've seen discharge curves for identical cells at different current draws, and they coincide with VidPro's statement. Furthermore, voltage readings also vary among brands: at an identical remaining capacity and having been discharged at the same rate, different brands can register drastically different voltages.

    As such, it sounds like in order to maximize runtime before reaching the drop-in cut-off voltage, I should select the operation voltage range of the drop-in based on how I'll use the light: a lower cut-off voltage if I'll be using the light at its highest setting all the time (high draw), and a higher cut-off voltage if I'll be using the light at the mid to low settings (low draw) most of the time?

    I've been searching for my first drop-in based on my interpretations above; please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken. I thought the Nailbender XPG 1-4.2V drop-in would be perfect for (1) 18650 because it had a boost circuit that would continue to power the light on high even if the battery voltage dropped to say 3.2V, which would still be above the over-discharge voltage limit for high draw. On the other hand, the Thrunite drop-in mentioned in the previous posts would have already gone into DD by the time the voltage dropped to 3.2V. As a result, I thought though the Nailbender might not be as bright as the Thrunite on high, I would get more runtime out of it and it's already pretty darn bright.

    After reading Nailbender's response, I'm confused. In what ways will running the 3.6-(6/8.4V) version on (1) 18650 be better? I'm thinking it will cutoff at 3.6V, which is a lot sooner than say 3.0V which is possible with the 1-4.2V version.
    hmmm I dont know too much about this stuff BUT
    when my NB 2.5a 3mode SST50 cuts off on HIGH I
    can switch it down to low and it will run on low.
    Im assuming til cutoff.
    also, I get over an hour on high on a single 18650 (aw 2600)
    and thats at 2.5 a - so the runtime of the XP-G should be
    pretty good.
    I think that yer splitting hairs on 15min or less of runtime on
    high probably.
    Id like someone who's an expert to answer this tho

  20. #680
    Flashaholic Midnight Oil's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    psychbeat,

    That's good news, your getting more than 1 hour for your SST using (1) 18650.

    Runtime, not just raw output, is very important to me. I just order from Dave that drop-in I mentioned, except it's the 5 mode one, which apparently has a buck/boost driver.

    Now I just gotta talk myself into getting the very expensive Pila charger, because I've read that the WF-139 is just not worth it. But I'm new to flashlights, so I can't really justify the purchase of the Pila.

    My buying it would be like someone just getting started in tennis, and, despite not having mastered the basics, goes out and buys a $200 racquet. The same can be said about deciding to purchase those expensive lubes. C'mon! it's only a flashlight, it's not freaking NASA!

  21. #681
    Flashaholic* psychbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    hehe- yeah -its a rad module Im really happy with it!

    I just got an R2 warm xpg Linger Special 2.8 single mode

    and its UNREAL how nice a flood it is for trail riding on my
    bike.

    Ive only got a crappy DSD charger and it works fine albeit
    slow - takes all night to charge a dead 18650. you also
    dont want to leave it in there trickle charging all day after its
    full. I use it for my RCR123 (16340) and have had no problems.
    my batts get charged twice a week. so far so good. Id like a hobby
    charger at some point if I get a 26650 host but thats month$ away.

    one other tip- an extra cell in an old cliff bar wrapper or sandwich
    bag is really light and easy to carry

  22. #682
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    I did a 2 layer wrap around the brass pill and it seems to have solved my contact issue.
    Now, any issues with it it being there? Any chance of it melting or screwing up my 6P. The light does get pretty warm with my drop in.

  23. #683
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ching View Post
    I did a 2 layer wrap around the brass pill and it seems to have solved my contact issue.
    Now, any issues with it it being there? Any chance of it melting or screwing up my 6P. The light does get pretty warm with my drop in.
    Good , it means the drop in is heatsinking into the body ...
    Did you get a multi mode drop in ? If not , well as long as it does not start to burn your hand .

  24. #684
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Nope, just the single mode (SKU 11836) from DX.
    Guessing now it's heatsinking more to to the body (well, as much as 2 layers of aluminum foil will help), it'll warm up faster. Not a big deal for now, but maybe I'll pick up a multimode down the road.
    Thanks

  25. #685

    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Just got DX's new $17 P7 drop-in (sku36030). Build quality is fine. Has memory for the 3 modes. Visible PWM on low, but the low mode is pretty decently low, which is nice. I'd say <45 lumens.

    Very floody beam, but you get that with any quad-die in a P60. There is a donut hole in the center, unfortunately. On high it is very very bright. No heat issues in my Solarforce L2p host that I can tell.

    However, all in all, for $17 to turn your SF 6P or L2 into a 400 lumen beast you can't really go wrong.

    I'll do some runtime test and get a current draw reading, but so far I like it.

  26. #686
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouiate View Post
    Just got DX's new $17 P7 drop-in (sku36030). Build quality is fine. Has memory for the 3 modes. Visible PWM on low, but the low mode is pretty decently low, which is nice. I'd say <45 lumens.

    Very floody beam, but you get that with any quad-die in a P60. There is a donut hole in the center, unfortunately. On high it is very very bright. No heat issues in my Solarforce L2p host that I can tell.

    However, all in all, for $17 to turn your SF 6P or L2 into a 400 lumen beast you can't really go wrong.

    I'll do some runtime test and get a current draw reading, but so far I like it.
    A decent low is under 5L
    Solarforce L2 Black, L2 Grey

  27. #687
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Superorb View Post
    A decent low is under 5L
    To each there own , 5L from a SSC P7 , 50L is more like it ...
    But you really want a medium setting .

    Looking forward to some current readings ..

  28. #688
    Flashaholic* old4570's Avatar
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...&postcount=955

    Link to SSC P7 and XP-G R5 beamshots ...

  29. #689
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by old4570 View Post
    To each there own , 5L from a SSC P7 , 50L is more like it ...
    But you really want a medium setting .

    Looking forward to some current readings ..
    I don't expect 5L from a P7. I'd be happy with 1L, 10L and 100L for my night stand light, but I haven't yet found a drop-in that would fit that bill.
    Solarforce L2 Black, L2 Grey

  30. #690
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    Default Re: P60 sized led drop-ins (part 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Superorb View Post
    I don't expect 5L from a P7. I'd be happy with 1L, 10L and 100L for my night stand light, but I haven't yet found a drop-in that would fit that bill.
    And you most likely wont .. Having said that I do have a drop in that comes close , but it was DIY , and a lot had to do with simple pot luck in what the driver did . And the one I got is for some reason low output [ low current drain as well ] and works for me as I run it 2xAA . Its able to run on dry cells [ the cheapest and nastiest ] all the way up to 18650 . And when I make a battery tube , it should even be 2xAAA capable .

    3L - 20L - 80L on Dry Cells ..

    You may wish to consider the variable output drop in from DX , mine has no modes though ..

    If only one could source the Akoray programmable driver

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