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Thread: Question for all of the LEO's here...

  1. #1

    Default Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Hi All,

    I've got a question for all of the Law Enforcement Officers here. I was recently stopped by an officer in NY. He asked for my license and registration and asked me a few more questions like where I was coming from and where I was going. He then returned to his car and told me to wait a minute with no mention of my violation yet. I was thinking maybe I have a light out, maybe I didn't signal, or maybe I didn't stop at the last light.

    He returns in a few minutes with a ticket for using a cell phone without a headset. This wouldn't be surprising except for the fact that I WASN"T USING MY PHONE! I don't know if he mistook me for someone else or if he thought I looked like I was on the phone when I was not.

    In any event, the ticket is a computer printout and it has a timestamp. I have looked at my online cell call log and it clearly shows that I had no call or text message within +/- 15 min of the ticket.

    My court date is next week. Should I just pay the fine or should I print the call log and show the judge that I was not on the phone?

    Also, I'm just asking for some opinions. I will not take anyone's opinion as legal advice and indemnify anyone of any liability.

    Thanks,
    Robert

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    He probably needed to fill his quota, If I were you I'd definately go to court.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Court, save your $$ for another light.

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    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    You have the time the citation was issued and, by extension, the alleged time of the offense.
    You have proof that no offense was committed at the time on the citation.

    It sounds like you have a pretty good case.

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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    You'd probably be better off asking any friends who are lawyers. I dunno, usually traffic court isn't life or death or anything so maybe the judge would look at the cell phones records. Maybe a bill would be better. If it won't arrive in time for the court date you could ask your cell phone company I'd bet they'd accommodate.
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    Flashaholic* gorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Go to court on it, but check with the clerk first. The court may or may not accept a printout from the internet. They may require a certified copy of the phone company’s record of your calls.

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    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    It all becomes moot if the officer doesn't show up for court.

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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Not quite sure what I'd do. Just playing the devil's advocate a bit, but can you somehow prove you don't have a 2nd cell phone for business or other use? Can you prove you weren't on a throwaway or pay as you go cell that is sceondary to your main cell phone? I know a few people with multiple cell phones. I probably would have tried to convince the officer at the time of the citation in a non-confrontational way, show him you cell phone log at the time he pulled you over.

    It would really make me steaming mad to get a ticket for something I didn't do, but if it wasn't a moving violation (no points on record), and if the fine wasn't very bad (will vary from one person to another how much they can "afford"), I might just pay it and chalk it up to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. How valuable is your time? Will you have to take a day off work to go to court to fight it? How far away is the courthouse from where you live/work? It could cost you more to go to court and fight it than to just mail the fine in.

    Good luck with it, in whatever you decide to do........
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    I agree with the others, get a copy of your cell phone bill and contest the ticket. If the bill's not enough, get a copy of your records from your cell phone company.
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Quote Originally Posted by NeonLights View Post
    I probably would have tried to convince the officer at the time of the citation in a non-confrontational way, show him you cell phone log at the time he pulled you over.
    I know plenty of people who got bogus (and not bogus) tickets trying to argue with the cop, they all got the same answer, you can argue it in court, now sign the ticket.

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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    ... it clearly shows that I had no call or text message within +/- 15 min of the ticket.
    I wouldn't even try to argue this one if you're talking +/- 15 minutes. You don't know when or where he saw you. I was stopped for speeding in Colorado a few months ago. The officer told me where he had clocked me speeding. It was a good 15 minutes back. It took him that long to catch up to me, he said. As I knew that I had been speeding where he told me I had been, I didn't even argue. No, I wasn't speeding when he finally stopped me... but he definately had me dead to rights where and when he said he did. +/- 15 minutes is too close. Now if it were like an hour or more, you'd have something to argue.

    One more thing to think about... you WERE violating the law... you've admitted it. If you walk into that court and say, "I wasn't talking on my cell phone when he caught me... I was doing it 15 minutes prior.".... Um... think about that...
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greta View Post
    One more thing to think about... you WERE violating the law... you've admitted it. If you walk into that court and say, "I wasn't talking on my cell phone when he caught me... I was doing it 15 minutes prior.".... Um... think about that...
    Based on his post, he didn't admit anything. He never said how long he was in the vehicle. He may have just got in his vehicle. I still think this would be a good case to take to court.
    Last edited by tiktok 22; 12-30-2008 at 09:00 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Thanks all for the responses. I hadn't thought of the "maybe you have 2 cell phones" argument. That would probably be impossible to disprove with pay as you go phones that require no records.

    Regarding the +/- 15 mins, I don't think this is a problem. This was in an urban area. I had just left one shopping plaza and drove to another one. Total distance traveled was probably a quarter mile. Total time in the car before being stopped was less than 5 mins. In fact, the stop was actually in the parking lot of the other shopping center!

    However, It seems like even with the call record, the judge can still find holes in this.

    Thanks for all of the thought you guys put into this!

    Robert

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Quote Originally Posted by RH View Post
    Thanks all for the responses. I hadn't thought of the "maybe you have 2 cell phones" argument. That would probably be impossible to disprove with pay as you go phones that require no records.
    Trying to prove a negative is ultimately impossible, as one could always come up with more "what if" scenarios. A log showing your cell phone call times on your primary cell is about the strongest evidence you should be reasonably able to come up with.

    There really isn't a whole lot of "hard evidence" a typical driver can conjure up in any sort of citation challenge most of the time. It's mostly just their word/story.

    Regarding the +/- 15 mins, I don't think this is a problem. This was in an urban area. I had just left one shopping plaza and drove to another one. Total distance traveled was probably a quarter mile. Total time in the car before being stopped was less than 5 mins. In fact, the stop was actually in the parking lot of the other shopping center!

    However, It seems like even with the call record, the judge can still find holes in this.
    If you want a reply to the "what if the cop saw you 15 minutes earlier talking" claim, you might bring in sales receipts or CC statements from the first shopping center (assuming you made purchases), to make a strong argument you could have only been driving a few minutes from there, to where you received the citation.

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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Generally when you plead not guilty to something in court here AND the officer isn't there you'll have to come back several times before your case is ultimately dismissed. I received a ticket for cycling on the sidewalk in 1999 and initially pleaded not guilty. The officer didn't show. I figured it would be dismissed then and there. Not so. I was given another date by the judge. I asked the the court officer about this and he said I would have come back two or three more times. If the officer didn't show at all only then would the ticket be dismissed. I ended up changing my plea to guilty because my time was worth more than the fine (and if the officer showed up next time I would lose my case anyway, and probably get 10 times the fine because I had initially pleaded not guilty). Nowadays I might plead not guilty however because cycling on the sidewalk now carries a prison term in addition to a fine. In short, guilty or not just pay the ticket and be done with it since it involves a fine only, not prison time. NY courts are a zoo and the judge probably wouldn't listen to a thing you say as he/she just wants to move along to the next case. The judge I had probably would have called you a smart a$$ if you pulled out your cell phone records, found you guilty, and fined you 5 times what he would have fined you had you just pleaded guilty. Judges here are too volatile and unpredictable to play games, and they're pushed to maximize revenue rather than dispense justice.. Don't plead not guilty unless you have rock-solid evidence, a lot of time to spend in court, AND the judge seems to be in a good mood.

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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Just a thought on what I might do if I were in your position, but I am not a lawyer.

    Several days or even a week or so before your trial date see if you can contact the district attorney who will be handling those cases (usually you can find out who that is by contacting the town court in which the case will be heard). Show him what you have as proof that you were not on the phone at that time and see what he says -- and get it in writing. Offer no other information if he does not specifically ask for it (and that seems to always be very important). You might get off or you might still have t go and fight it, but you might have a better idea of what's going to happen before hand. Contact a lawyer if you feel you need one or if the fine could be high, and especially if this might add points to your license.

    And after it all gets worked out if you do not already have one, go and get yourself a headset and use the darned thing if you have to use the phone in the car. NY does enforce this law, obviously. Heck, I got a bluetooth for my wife for only about $20 awhile ago (good trade, huh? Yuk, yuk, yuk). It is a lot cheaper than getting a ticket -- even if you get off you will have spent time on it getting things in order. Plus wearing the headset kind of makes writing the ticket less likely in the first place.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Quote Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
    I know plenty of people who got bogus (and not bogus) tickets trying to argue with the cop, they all got the same answer, you can argue it in court, now sign the ticket.
    I've talked a cop down on several occasions to a lower fine/infraction than they had initially planned on giving me due to circumstances they hadn't considered or weren't aware of. In each case I acted in a very mature, respectful manner and wasn't pushy or angry. I never lied or stretched the truth. I don't believe in fighting tickets that I was rightfully cited for.
    Ha ha, you fool!! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia; and only slightly less well known is this: Never go against a Sicilian, when death is on the line!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    I will tell you that MOST traffic court judges are quite able to tell when people are lying to them and vice versa. They hear nonsense excuses and stories almost as much as cops, and have excellent BS meters.

    I would bring the phone records in the most formal and organized manner possible, along with the headset that you use in the car, with receipt or credit card statment for that headset. Showing that you already owned a headset in accordance with the NY State law will go towards showing that you respect and follow the law. A fairly clean driving and no criminal record would be a favorable factor for you also.

    Harder to do, but very effective, would be contacting all of the cell phone providers that offer service to your area and asking for a letter stating that you did not have service with them on the date of the offense. Seeing as your court date is next week, this seems unlikely to get done unless you have lots of free time on your hands. At any rate, attempting this will further show the judge that you are serious about your innocence.

    It's all how you present yourself and the facts to the judge- wear a suit and tie, be cordial and respectful to both the officer and the court. Tell your side of the story with sincerity, and respectfully present the evidence that you have to offer.

    Police officers are human too (except for Robocop of course), and can make mistakes just like everybody else. We don't always like to admit that, but I've seen judges rule in a citizen's favor whenever they present a decent case and keep their bearing. Good luck to you and let us know what happens.

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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Lots of good advice here. From what I know, you can get a ticket for just holding your phone, even if its not in use. Like others have said, officers make mistakes, like everyone else. I got pulled over for apparently talking on the cell during my morning commute to work. I didnt have my phone out of my front pocket, got reprimanded for something I didnt do, and then was let go without a ticket. At first, I was upset for being accused for an act I didnt commit. But I soon realized mistakes happen, and I was very happy I didnt get a ticket. Regardless, if you are innocent, you should fight it if you have the time and patience...its worth a shot. Ultimately, it all comes down to the judge.

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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    I believe........ In telling the truth...... If your busted..... Your busted..... Pay up Sucker!

    If you didn't do it..... Look the judge straight in the face.... Eye to eye and tell him/her politely .....I didn't do it...It never happened. The LEO obviously got me mixed up with somebody else.

    At the end of the day.... The only person you have to answer to is yourself..... If you didn't do it.... You didn't do it.... Stand up for yourself!

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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Fight it!

    Been there several times in my 40 years of driving. I've won or had charges reduced often enough to have made it worthwhile beyond just defending myself.

    Lot's of good advice was given, here. If we won't fight injustices, however small, we shouldn't expect someone else to protect us. Your effort may prevent future "mistakes." Good luck.
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Fight it . . . unless you really do think he saw you when you WERE using it.

    It's not going to be TV law show conspiracy stuff. Just tell your story, which sounds good to me (so it should sound at least okay to a judge). There's no second "grassy knoll" cellphone to worry about. They won't bring that up and they won't bring up if you were driving or not 15 min earlier UNLESS the ticket mentions that was the time you were observed. You might have been in Starbucks 15 minutes ago.

    It's always worth fighting the ticket . . . especially if you have a shred of a case. More people need to do this. I don't know about your area, but if it's like mine, cities and townships are issuing more and more tickets to supplement income. If everyone fights, even if they're guilty as hell, the cops will eventually stop the harrasment pullovers because it will cost them MORE to go to court. They count on people avoiding the hassle and just paying by mail.

    I would fight it.

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  23. #23

    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Definitely fight it, sounds like you've got a decent chance to win. If you don't fight it then you have no chance to win.

    It is possible to talk an LEO out of giving you a ticket or reducing it on the side of the road. Courtesy and respect above all else. Some LEO's know they're writing questionable tickets(Once got pulled over for doing 25 in a 25 zone; "Well, we expect people to do 20 through here.), and have let me go upon finding out that I'll be fighting the ticket and that a judge will hear the case. Again, I was completely respectful and courteous.

    Good luck.
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    Generally when you plead not guilty to something in court here AND the officer isn't there you'll have to come back several times before your case is ultimately dismissed. I received a ticket for cycling on the sidewalk in 1999 and initially pleaded not guilty. The officer didn't show. I figured it would be dismissed then and there. Not so. I was given another date by the judge. I asked the the court officer about this and he said I would have come back two or three more times. If the officer didn't show at all only then would the ticket be dismissed. I ended up changing my plea to guilty because my time was worth more than the fine (and if the officer showed up next time I would lose my case anyway, and probably get 10 times the fine because I had initially pleaded not guilty). Nowadays I might plead not guilty however because cycling on the sidewalk now carries a prison term in addition to a fine. In short, guilty or not just pay the ticket and be done with it since it involves a fine only, not prison time. NY courts are a zoo and the judge probably wouldn't listen to a thing you say as he/she just wants to move along to the next case. The judge I had probably would have called you a smart a$$ if you pulled out your cell phone records, found you guilty, and fined you 5 times what he would have fined you had you just pleaded guilty. Judges here are too volatile and unpredictable to play games, and they're pushed to maximize revenue rather than dispense justice.. Don't plead not guilty unless you have rock-solid evidence, a lot of time to spend in court, AND the judge seems to be in a good mood.

    more or less the truth. you will be found guilty and can obviously appeal.

    i would think logically on a no point ticket. compare the cost to your convenience.

    personaly i would only fight point tix or ones that would be criminal

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Get a bluetooth headset.
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Well of course my reply will be naturally biased towards the officer here for obvious reasons however there are many factors to consider.....

    Most places I know of work about the same as far as citations and most people do not know that an officer usually has 12 months to write a citation for a violation. I once saw a citizen driving very fast and running several red lights. I was in my personal vehicle on my way to work and I followed as he ran several cars off the road. I followed him all the way to his work where he must have been late as he quickly exited his car and ran inside.

    I did not approach him as I was in my personal vehicle however I did remember the car as well as the driver. Hours later as the place closed up I was waiting outside this time in my patrol car. Yes I wrote him a reckless driving citation 5 hours after the event and he was very angry. He did go to court and yes I was there. His defense was simply to say I was out of line for writing a citation hours after the event and claimed it was not him driving.

    The funny part is that on the bottom of the ticket he signed the fine print clearly states an officer has 12 months to issue a citation for any traffic offense witnessed. The idiot lost his license as this was his 3rd reckless citation within 12 months and the roads are much better off now I say.

    My point is that if you were indeed guilty the officer may have witnessed you talking on your phone 15 minutes earlier and the citation would still be valid. If this is not the case by all means fight the charge however again if at any time during that trip you were guilty of the offense then they may also have evidence to show this. Almost all departments I know of these days have video cameras and the harassment stops that so many try to show are usually not a good defense if the offense is on video.

    The officer does not have to mention the video at the time of the stop and if video does exist it is usually downloaded daily and kept in a log for future use. Believe me they will use it if it exists so again think carefully if you may have been seen using your phone anytime before the actual traffic stop. I would also look closely at patrol cars in your area and see if they indeed do use video cameras. If they do they usually always activate automatically each time the overhead lights are activated and if so you can bet your stop is on video.

    With todays technology everything we do is on audio and video and it is honestly very rare to find officers that simply harass people. I know at times some feel they may be a target and yes even feel unfairly accused however again most good departments can usually back up their actions with audio and video proof.

    Good luck to you whatever you decide however make sure you at least show up. You may find that this will help you the most as many simply ignore the citation and it quickly turns into a warrant and suspension of license. I have found that many courts are willing to work with defendants if they simply make an effort to show up and present a case.....even if they were in the wrong. Most recent case was a man I wrote for no insurance after he was involved in a wreck. He was guilty no way around it however he later went to court with a plan.....he arrived with receipts showing he had paid for the damages to the other car and also showed where he now had liability insurance. The judge was impressed with his efforts and simply dismissed the 500 dollar citation.

    Good luck and let us know how it goes......
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  27. #27

    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Hi All,

    Thanks for all of your advice...sorry for my delay in getting back here. So I had my day in court. At 9am the ADA comes into the court room and begins the session by going over preliminaries. He explains how the day is going to go and what the process is. He explains that if you're there for a speeding ticket and you have a clean driving record, he will most likely offer you a plea to a lesser charge (say 2 points) that should not affect your insurance. At this point, I think I'm home clear. We haven't even begun and he's talking of reducing speeding tickets!

    And then he proclaims that there is one offense that he won't make any deals on and that is cell phone violations! He has almost been killed multiple times by people talking on a cell phone and he will not tolerate that. As you can imagine, this is a real mood killer for me.

    He then returns to the clerk's office and announces that we will be called in to see the judge (as this is "first court"). As luck would have it, just after his cell phone diatribe, I'm the first one called!

    I go in to see the judge and he reads the charge against me. He then asks if I want to plead guilty and pay the fine or if I want a trial. I explained that I was hoping to get to speak with the ADA and see if we couldn't come to an agreement without going to trial. The ADA overheard this and walked in from the clerk's office.

    I explained my evidence. I showed him the receipt for my bluetooth headset purchased a year before the incident to show that I own a handsfree device. Fortunately, my headset is a Jabra that uses the disposable gel ear pieces and I showed him the receipt for new gels that were purchased less than a month prior to the ticket. I was hoping that this would show that not only do I own a headset, but I use it as I am purchasing consumables for it.

    Next, I pulled out a copy of my call log from that day direct from the phone company showing that I had no calls within 2 hours of my traffic stop. I think he'd heard this before as I didn't even have it out of my mouth when he proffered that maybe I have another cell phone. At this, I showed a letter from my place of employment affirming that I have no company cell phone and that I submit for reimbursement business use of my personal phone.

    He paused in light of this new evidence and asked if I have any other tickets for cell phone use in the last couple years. I said no and in fact I have never had a ticket of any kind or an accident for as long as I've been driving. He asked how long I've been driving and I said over 15 years.

    At this point, he said that he would like to offer me an extended adjournment. This meant that if I didn't get any other tickets within 6 months, this would be expunged and it would be like it never happened. I said thank you very much!

    I'd like to thank everyone for their advice. I think the two main reasons for the adjournment were the fact that I had made every effort to support my case with evidence (receipts, call log, letter from employer) and that I had a clean driving record. Anyway, thanks again and I hope you enjoyed reading this mini-saga.

    Thanks,
    Robert

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Congratulations, and well done.
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanA View Post
    Congratulations, and well done.
    I second that opinion! Very well done.
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Question for all of the LEO's here...

    I am late to this but I just want to say the cell phone call log helped but biggest thing was your driving record.


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