Source for NiMH Charger in UK

davegLED

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For Christmas I got this to go with my new Fenix LD10:

Fameart PC14 NiMH charger with 4 AA NiMH Eneloops:

http://www.fameart.co.uk/products/fa...gers/PC14.html

From what I can tell it doesn't have charge termination or even a 'battery full' warning. It seems to have a constant slow charge of 170mA.

I know that smart chargers with deltaV termination etc are better, but are they really needed?

I don't want to ruin the Eneloops and will buy a better charger if you all think it is necessary. A recommendation of a UK supplier would be greatly appreciated.
 

Mr Happy

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For Christmas I got this to go with my new Fenix LD10:

Fameart PC14 NiMH charger with 4 AA NiMH Eneloops:

http://www.fameart.co.uk/products/fa...gers/PC14.html

From what I can tell it doesn't have charge termination or even a 'battery full' warning. It seems to have a constant slow charge of 170mA.

I know that smart chargers with deltaV termination etc are better, but are they really needed?

I don't want to ruin the Eneloops and will buy a better charger if you all think it is necessary. A recommendation of a UK supplier would be greatly appreciated.
It won't harm the Eneloops as long as you remove them from the charger as soon as they are charged (about 12 - 14 hours at 170 mA). It's not an ideal charger for daily use, but if you can live with the charging time it will do the job.
 

davegLED

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Cheers for your reply Mr Happy I really appreciate it.

I have spent some time reading up more on NiMH technology and learnt a lot in the process.

I checked the most common Sanyo charger around here (MQN04) and it has a charge current of 250mA or 1/8C (0.125C).

The Fameart chargers 175mA is equal to 1/11C (0.0875C).

I found a very interesting line on a NiMH datasheet from GP:

http://www.gpbatteries.co.uk/support/technical_info.html

Also, in some applications where overcharging is necessary, GP NiMH batteries can endure 0.1C continuous charging for about one year.......
GP NiMH batteries can be trickle-charged at 0.1C continuously for one
year without leakage or explosions
.

The topic of slow charging was also covered:

As previously mentioned, the cell design applies the concept of oxygen recombination in lowering the battery's internal oxygen level during standard charging.

I can now see that with the Fameart's 0.0875C charge rate overcharging is not much of an issue. Pressure/heat should not build up as excess oxygen is recombined and as a result the damage to the cell will be minimal.

I don't have to worry about remembering how much charge was left in the cell (and therefore how much charge it needs) since a little extra charge won't do much harm.
 

Mr Happy

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Everything you said is correct, but there is a school of thought that charging NiMH at fast rates (where fast is in the range of 0.5C to 1.0C) actually leads to better performance than charging at slow rates. Admittedly this is somewhat academic since few consumer chargers are actually designed to charge at the 1 to 2 amp rate that would be necessary to achieve this, but it is worth knowing.

So while you don't have any urgency to replace your current charger, if at some point you do consider upgrading to a better charger, it would be worth bearing this in mind.
 

Egsise

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It won't harm the Eneloops as long as you remove them from the charger as soon as they are charged (about 12 - 14 hours at 170 mA). It's not an ideal charger for daily use, but if you can live with the charging time it will do the job.

I have a "smart" charger, but my friends charger is an overnight charger with 12h timer.
To calculate the correct 0.1C charging time for 2000mAh eneloops I have used information on this page. http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-11.htm
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The overall charge efficiency of nickel-cadmium is about 90% if fast charged at 1C. On a 0.1C overnight charge, the efficiency drops to 70% and the charge time is 14 hours or longer. [/FONT]

Now is that 70% efficiency wrong and my friend is overcharging his eneloops?

For example if the charger output is 170mA and eneloop capacity is 2000mAh, are my calculations right or wrong?
70% of 170mA is 119mA and the charge time would be 2000mAh/119mA=16.8 hours.
And I guess 16 hours is enough, that should give 1900mAh charge because eneloops minimum capacity is 1900mAh?
 

Mr Happy

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Well that comment about the overall charge efficiency being lower at 0.1C is in the section on Nickel Cadmium cells, but a similar situation does apply to Nickel Metal Hydride cells. However, the charging efficiency also varies between cells.

I believe that Eneloops, for example, have a very good charging efficiency. Based on my experiments with the Maha C9000 charger I think that charging of an Eneloop is almost complete after 110%, even at a 0.1C rate.

Therefore, using a 170 mA charging current, the minimum time to charge would be 1.1 x 2000 / 170 = 13 hours. However, since it does no harm to charge at a 0.1C rate for longer than the minimum it is quite OK to leave the batteries on charge for another few hours if you want to be really sure they are fully charged.

The best thing to do in any particular case is to experiment with charge times and pick the shortest charge time that seems to give good results.

With Eneloops you can use a volt meter and measure the voltage when you remove the cell from the charger. If the voltage fresh off the charger is in the range of 1.45 to 1.50 volts then you can assume the cell is fully charged. You can measure voltage with other cells than Eneloops too, but the exact voltage to look out for might be different.
 

Egsise

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Screenshot from Sanyo Charger Model #NC-MQN06 specs. http://www.eneloopusa.com/pdf/4_Position_Charger_IS.pdf
eneloop_charger.jpg


Typo there, max is 2000mAh, not 3000mAh.
It seems to be that Sanyo relies on that ~70% efficiency.
Because there is no harm to overcharge at 0.1C, I think it's better to do so rather than undercharge.
 
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Mr Happy

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Typo there, max is 2000mAh, not 3000mAh.
It seems to be that Sanyo relies on that ~70% efficiency.
Because there is no harm to overcharge at 0.1C, I think it's better to do so rather than undercharge.
Actually, I don't think that is a typo. It seems that 300 mA x 10 h = 3000 mAh, and there is probably a 10 hour backup safety timer in this charger, making 3000 mAh the maximum charge that can be supplied.

In fact the MQN-06 is a smart charger that will automatically stop charging when the cells are full rather than overcharging. It will not apply 3000 mAh of charge to 2000 mAh Eneloops.
 

Mr Happy

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Well firstly the fast charge is when using the recommended charging system (see Note 2 and the label of the Charge graph). The recommended charging system is to apply a charging current of 2000 mA and stop charging when the end point condition of -ΔV=10mV is detected. Using this charging system, the expected charging time will be about 1.1h.

Secondly, the cell capacity is measured under the IEC standard conditions. The IEC standard charging conditions are to apply a 0.1C charging current for a fixed time of 16 hours at an ambient temperature of 25°C, let the cell rest for 1 hour, and then discharge down to 1.0 V at the 0.2C rate. It should be borne in mind that this is not the recommended charging system, this is the standard capacity test method. The IEC standard charge provides a deliberate overcharge of the cell to ensure it is fully saturated before discharge and to remove any uncertainty due to variation of charge acceptance between cells.
 

Egsise

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So you say using 0.1C charger, there is no harm if my friend "overcharges" eneloop cells a few hours and by doing so he makes sure he gets full capacity.

Then the right formula would be something like 1.1 x 2000mAh / 170mA = 13h + 2h, and that is about 80% charging efficiency for eneloops, not 70% as with normal nimh.
Sorry for repeating stuff, but I just would like to have some numbers how to calculate charging times for those 150-300mA overnight chargers that my non-flashaholic friends have.
 

SilverFox

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Hello Egsise,

We have a size limit on images at CPF. Please re-size your image to 800X600. Thanks.

The reason the IEC Standard Charge is not recommended for normal charging is because there are many times when a cell will be recharged when it is only partially discharged. Since NiMh chemistry suffers damage from over charging (even at 0.1C although at this charge rate the damage is minimal over a short term of a couple of hours), it is better to charge at a faster rate and utilize proper charge termination.

What is very interesting about the Sanyo data sheets is that they use the same -dV value (10 mv) for NiMh cells that they use for NiCd cells. Most people use 4 - 5 mV when charging NiMh and find that the cells don't heat up as much and they get better life from them.

Tom
 

Essexman

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I don't want to ruin the Eneloops and will buy a better charger if you all think it is necessary. A recommendation of a UK supplier would be greatly appreciated.

Why limit youself to AA's when buying?

I got one of these last year Universal charger for AAA, AA, C, D, PP3 Batteries, with LCD display.
http://component-shop.co.uk/html/standard.html
7th one down the page £16.99
Cheap and cheerful, but appears to work OK.
 

KowShak

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I've got a "Tronic KH 980" charger from Lidl, it was one of their specials, not bad for £10.

Its was cheap to buy but has a fairly high charge rate (1000ma for AAs) and -dV charge termination. Its fairly smart, so if you put a fully charged battery in it won't try to charge it (I'm not sure whether it does a maintenance charge or not). For a part charged battery it does a discharge, wait, charge cycle, for a dischargerd battery it skips the discharge and the wait and gets on with the cycle.

All 6 bays are completely independent, which means you can charge different battery types at the same time. One possible complaint is that the outermost bays can either charge 4AAs or 2D cells, i.e. you can get 6AAs or 4D cells into the charger in total.

http://www.kompernass.com/pages/index.php?page=1,3,1,2&product=497

The manual for that specific charger (complete with pictures) is linked above.
 

davegLED

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Why limit youself to AA's when buying?

I got one of these last year Universal charger for AAA, AA, C, D, PP3 Batteries, with LCD display.
http://component-shop.co.uk/html/standard.html
7th one down the page £16.99
Cheap and cheerful, but appears to work OK.

Thanks for the link, they sell LaCrosse too, haven't found many suppliers in the UK so is very handy.

I've got a "Tronic KH 980" charger from Lidl, it was one of their specials, not bad for £10.

Its was cheap to buy but has a fairly high charge rate (1000ma for AAs) and -dV charge termination. Its fairly smart, so if you put a fully charged battery in it won't try to charge it (I'm not sure whether it does a maintenance charge or not). For a part charged battery it does a discharge, wait, charge cycle, for a dischargerd battery it skips the discharge and the wait and gets on with the cycle.

Doesn't that ruin the fact that LSD NiMH prefer shallow charge cycles? I mean if you only use half the charge is wastes the other half?

Is it still possible for a charger to recognise -dV on a part charged cell? It looks a great charger for the money I am just trying to understand!
 

Mr Happy

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Doesn't that ruin the fact that LSD NiMH prefer shallow charge cycles? I mean if you only use half the charge is wastes the other half?

Is it still possible for a charger to recognise -dV on a part charged cell? It looks a great charger for the money I am just trying to understand!
Actually, discharging first is not a terrible thing, except that it will make the charging take longer and that will be annoying if you are in a hurry.

Technically though, both NiMH and NiCd chemistry perform best with a full discharge between charges. Repeated shallow charging of NiMH can cause poor performance. The "refresh" mode on many chargers is provided to help overcome this problem and restore batteries to good health.
 

davegLED

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Actually, discharging first is not a terrible thing, except that it will make the charging take longer and that will be annoying if you are in a hurry.

Technically though, both NiMH and NiCd chemistry perform best with a full discharge between charges. Repeated shallow charging of NiMH can cause poor performance. The "refresh" mode on many chargers is provided to help overcome this problem and restore batteries to good health.

I was under the impression best NiMH life was gained from shallow charges with periodic full dis-recharges.

From Battery University:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Avoid too many full cycles because of wear."

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Do not discharge before each charge"[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Discharge to 1V/cell every 3 months to prevent memory"[/FONT]

I am not saying you are wrong Mr Happy, you seem to know alot about batteries and charge methods and I really appreciate your input on this thread. It just seems what you and Battery University say is contradictory :confused:
 

Mr Happy

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I was under the impression best NiMH life was gained from shallow charges with periodic full dis-recharges.

From Battery University:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Avoid too many full cycles because of wear."

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Do not discharge before each charge"[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Discharge to 1V/cell every 3 months to prevent memory"[/FONT]

I am not saying you are wrong Mr Happy, you seem to know alot about batteries and charge methods and I really appreciate your input on this thread. It just seems what you and Battery University say is contradictory :confused:
The advice quoted from Battery University is not wrong. However, as with many kinds of advice, it is difficult to give advice that is general and understandable without simplifying some of the details.

Let's take them one by one:

Avoid too many full cycles because of wear.

The lifetime of a NiMH cell is measured in the number of charge cycles before the performance reduces unacceptably, but the number of charge cycles you will get varies a lot with charging conditions. If you charge a partially discharged cell, that might be considered "half a cycle" and thus good, but on the other hand chargers sometimes have trouble detecting the end of charge point if a cell is already partially charged before you start. So charging a nearly full cell could lead to overcharge, and that could be as damaging as a full charge cycle.

Do not discharge before each charge.

Generally speaking this is accurate because it is unnecessary to discharge first. It is very common for people to "top up" NiMH batteries before use. On the other hand, it won't particularly harm the batteries to discharge them first, and it might possibly be better for them by refreshing them and by avoiding the possibility of overcharge.

Discharge to 1V/cell every 3 months to prevent memory.

Even though it is not strictly necessary to discharge fully before charging every time, it is important to discharge fully at least some of the time. Every three months is a kind of average number, and might be more, or might be less, depending on your usage pattern.


What is the summary then?

Well the typical good lifetime of a modern NiMH cell is reckoned to be about 500 cycles. In adverse circumstances that could be reduced to 100 cycles or less.

Now if you get 500 full discharge/charge cycles, that corresponds to about 2 years of use with daily cycles, and about ten years of use with weekly cycles. If, like me, you have batteries in a digital camera that get recharged once every three months or so, the batteries will outlast you.

So the short answer is that unless you are a particularly heavy user you are likely to lose or dispose of your batteries for other reasons before you use up their cycle life. Therefore it is easy to over think the effect of full discharges on battery life.
 

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