UltraFire vs. AW-cells

I've come across the brand "AW" more than once here.
Also, I've come across numerous people who have measured capacity from UltraFire cells and.... have noticed that they don't even come close to the specifications. 30% less is no exception. More the rule
Is this better with AW? Is a 750mAh 16340 cell really 750mAh, and a 1100mAh 17500 cell really 1100mAh?
Does anybody know?

Thanks!

Timmo.

AW states true capacity. He also has a better protection circuit, which makes the cells safer.

After playing around with both of these manufacturers over a years time testing runtime, power, and lifecycle it became very clear to me. I own nothing but AW rechargeables now.

Thanks for these clear replies. Now the only issue is: does he ship to the Netherlands....
Although these batteries are 2X to 3X as expensive as that UltraFire rubbish, I want to buy some of these AW-cells, in at least 3 different sizes. 16340, 17500 and maybe 18500, and for sure 18650!
I hope he sells them outside of the US...

:thumbsup:

Timmo.

Hello Timmo.

He sells to Europe. I'll bought of him several times.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=187951

Anders

You're comparing the wrong brand. Ultrafire is known to sell crap. Try Trustfire; their RCR123s are rated too much like any other (IIRC even AW RCR123s don't get to the rated capacity), but the 18650s are rated honestly. AFAIK, Trustfire 18650 and RCR123/16340 are both good.

Marduke said:

AW states true capacity. He also has a better protection circuit, which makes the cells safer.

Click to expand...

This isn't completely correct. As someone else mentioned, the AW 750 mAh AWRCR123's don't really come close to their rating. Maybe there is some low current trick that could coax it out, but in my actual use they usually provide just a bit over 500 mAh. The 18650's and 17500's seem to do a little better but still fall short of the rating. In my experience anyway.

With that said, the AW IMR batteries are meeting the stated capacity for me. Sometimes they are even exceeding it. And regardless of what I wrote above, I don't worry about it as I am still confident the AW batteries are the best I can get.

As also mentioned, the blue labeled Trustfire 18650's rated at 2500 mAh are consistently achieving their stated capacity. I bought dozens of them and have yet to get a dud. These things are a bargain!

I imagine AW is forced to overstate the capacity of his RCR123s to avoid losing business to uninformed people (the vast majority). Joe Random User is much more likely to buy something with a "880mAh" label on it than "550mAh", even if the the 550mAh actually outperforms the other. We should probably be thankful that he's overstating it much less than the cheapo manufacturers.

I now measured the capacity of the Ultrafire 16340s: a very disappointing 435mAh!
Whoow, that's not even half of the rated capacity.... that's why my WF-501B only runs 19 minutes instead of the calculated 40 minutes....

It's time for AW batteries I think


Timmo.

19 minutes means it's charging at slightly more than 3C. This is not good; LiIon cells aren't meant to be charged at more than 2C, and really want just 1C to be OK (I usually charge at half-C to be on the safe side). Cheap cells usually have 500+ mAh of capacity; yours probably lost some due to use and/or being charged way too fast.

I remember why I purchased some trustfire 18650's they actually had a better capacity than AW 18650's,that's not to say AW are not good they are!!! but ultrafire's whether RCR123's or 18650's both let me down in the past and I will not buy them again,just my 2 mah's worth

There are no honestly rated 16340 sized cells, even AWs are over rated to an extent. Expect anywhere from 450-550 mah regardless of the brand.

Someone did an extensive 16340 comparison a while ago and they ALL fell short of their label-printed capacities. So upgrading to AW cells will be a slight step up in capacity, but will not be the improvement you are looking for.

In all honesty, if its capacity and run time you are looking for the 16340 size is not ideal. That 501B Xenon lamp is a power hog, it draws 1300mah (!!), so no 16340 sized cell is going to give half decent run times. The only way to bolster run times, is to carry backup cells. You cant use primaries with this LA either.

Regarding calculated run times...

800mah cell capacity / 1300mah draw = .615
.615x60 minutes = 36 minutes of calculated run, with spec'd capacity

Most AW 16340 cells are in the 500mah ballpark...
500mah cell capacity / 1300mah draw = .384
.384x60minutes = 23 minutes of calculated run, with AW

Ditto the trustfire 18650 recommendation above.... Mine have been great. 2x18650 cells will get that lamp running nicely.

Something else to consider in the AW vs. WhateverFire decision:

AW black label cells consistently fit just about everything out there. Trust/UltraFire don't always fit, and it's mostly a matter of which cell size you're using.

AW 123: Rarely read about fitment issues.
Ultra/TrustFire 123: Too long for many lights.
AW 14500: Work well in the sensitive Nitecore D10.
Ultra/TrustFire 14500: Too long for Nitecore D10.

In 18650, I only have an AW flat top with protection and Tenergy 2600's, thus don't know about length issues with Ultra/TrustFire cells in that size.

Yes, if size is a concern AWs are better. Cheap manufacturers take existing cells and slap protection at the end; AW actually uses slightly shorter cells to make up for the size difference.

clintb said:

Something else to consider in the AW vs. WhateverFire decision:

AW black label cells consistently fit just about everything out there. Trust/UltraFire don't always fit, and it's mostly a matter of which cell size you're using.

Click to expand...

Good tip! This is particularly true with the smaller batteries. The Ultrafires I tried wouldn't fit in any of my flashlights properly. Doesn't seem to be as big a problem with the 18650's.

Not sure if it was mentioned but one thing. In my experience the protection circuit on the Ultrafires is absolute crap. I only have a few of these batteries, but all of them quit working fairly quickly. I would guess it is from the extra pressure being physically exerted on them as a result of being too long. Ultimately, I removed the circuit from all these crap batteries for occasional, cautious use.

So while AW batteries are not always accurately rated, they sure do everything else right. There is a reason for their stellar reputation.

My experience is the protection circuit of UF/TF batteries is larger than AW's, and the cell is the same length.

Unprotected UF/TF need a little boost in length, which can be accomplished with a magnet. However, magnets can shift and short. Here's my solution for that problem:

So I'd better drop in a 3,7V module and take a 2200mAh AW 18650 or a trustfire 18650 (2500mAh) to make it a useful light...

I saw these modules on DX, they are 10W in power. That's the same power as the 9V (on 7,2V) / 1,3A lamp assembly that's in now, so I can expect more or less the same output.

That makes a current consumption of 2,7A. That would be fine, is under 2C.

A 2500mAh cell could sustain that load for about 55 minutes. That's a lot more than 19 :thumbsup:


I see: this is the way to go!


Timmo.

Yeah, a big difference.
I wonder why there is such a big difference between the 18650 and 16340 cells. they have a little over twice the volume, but 5 times the capacity.

Is it just the fact that lots of money went into the optimization of 18650 cells from computer companies?

Not only the optimization for laptops makes a difference but a lot more power gets dissipated in the cells when you start drawing more than about 1c even 2c is pushing it for lithium ions. Usually for high current use you need lithium polymers which can be used from 4c and up depending on the cell quality and construction. I still would like to see a 3 cell 18650 powered P7 light so you could have max output and long battery life.

IMSabbel said:

I wonder why there is such a big difference between the 18650 and 16340 cells. they have a little over twice the volume, but 5 times the capacity.

Click to expand...

A significant amount of a cell's volume is occupied by the structure of the cell itself: the outer enclosure, terminals etc. Their size (along with, I presume, that of the separator material inside) doesn't change much in smaller cells. Add to this the push for more capacity in 18650s, and you see why 16340s have rather less capacity than you'd think by merely doing the mathematics.