Optimal dis/charge rate for Refreshing old Batteries

Joypog

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I just purchased a LaCrosse BC900 (even though I know that this forum seems to be much more positive about the Maha ;-).

I was wondering what is generally considered an optimal rate of charge/discharge in the "refresh mode". The default recommended rate is 200/100. At that rate, a refresh with several cycles would take quite a long time and I would like to speed it up if there is a consensus that I can get away with it.

On the other hand I'm not in a huge rush so I can wait if it really is best to go with this lower rate of charging.

I have 3 sets of 2100mAh batteries (4 years old), as well as the new 2600mAh batteries that were included with the charger.

Thanks for any help!
 

Joypog

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Also another slightly amended question is -- instead of using the "refresh mode" can I just use the discharge/charge mode a few times times in a row?

So instead of doing it all at once in the refresh mode, can I do the charge/discharge -- use the batteries -- charge/discharge -- use the batteries ... (x3) and be pretty much good to go?

thanks!
 

moldyoldy

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Hmmm, both old and new cells. The discharge rate should be sufficiently slow to involve as much of the chemical makeup of the cell as possible. The charge rate with old/new cells is focused more on not missing a termination. I have the C9000 (0G0KA) and two BC-900 (33) and all of them have missed termination at the 200 ma charge rate, albeit rarely. Given your cells and using the BC-900, I would recommend a charge rate of 500 ma which implies a discharge rate of 250 ma. With older cells, that is the charge/discharge rate that I use. I have never had a missed termination at 500 ma charge rate.
 

Mr Happy

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I think I would do a single charge/discharge first to discover how much refreshing the cells might need. You could probably do a charge/discharge at 500 mA for this. You would be looking to see how much the measured capacity is less than the label capacity, and how what kind of voltage is sustained during the majority of the discharge. Healthy cells would deliver at least 90% of the label capacity and should maintain a voltage above 1.15 V for most of the discharge, and above 1.20 V for the first third of it.

If the cells need a lot of refreshing use lower charge and discharge rates; if they are good you can use higher rates.
 

Muse

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Hmmm, both old and new cells. The discharge rate should be sufficiently slow to involve as much of the chemical makeup of the cell as possible. The charge rate with old/new cells is focused more on not missing a termination. I have the C9000 (0G0KA) and two BC-900 (33) and all of them have missed termination at the 200 ma charge rate, albeit rarely. Given your cells and using the BC-900, I would recommend a charge rate of 500 ma which implies a discharge rate of 250 ma. With older cells, that is the charge/discharge rate that I use. I have never had a missed termination at 500 ma charge rate.
OK, based on the info I got when I researched here about this a couple years ago or so, this is what I've been doing with AA NiMH batteries. But I'm wondering if this is appropriate for AAAs. I have 8 Rayovac Hybrid NiMH AAA's and 8 newly acquired Eneloop NiMH AAA's and wonder what dis/charge rates I should use. Typically, I Discharge/Charge, but if I notice a significant falloff of capacity shown by the BC-900 I use the Refresh cycle. I've been using dis/charge rates of 100/200 with my AAA's until now, thinking that 250/500 might be excessive with AAA's. So far, I don't know that I've experienced a missed cutoff (?). Occasionally I touch a cell to see if it's heated, but haven't noticed any yet. Is it better to use 250/500 even with AAA's?
 
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Joypog

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Healthy cells would deliver at least 90% of the label capacity and should maintain a voltage above 1.15 V for most of the discharge, and above 1.20 V for the first third of it.

I missed the bottom end of the voltage (it did the switch from discharge to charge in the middle of the night and I didn't know to look for it). But I did notice that they topped out at around 1700 before being discharged for the for the next discharge/refresh cycle.

When a 2100mAh battery tops out at 1700mAh -- should I keep trying refreshing it or is it a lost cause?

Thanks!
Justus
 

moldyoldy

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offhand, I agree with Mr.Happy regarding conducting a single discharge/charge to ascertain the initial capacity.

as for when to toss a cell, the Eveready, GE battery reference books cite an end-of-life at 80% of labeled capacity. I also agree that healthier cells will hold their voltage higher during discharge, although the specific voltages obviously depend on the discharge rate. In any case, although both the C9000 and BC-900 use 0.9v for a discharge cutoff, anything less than 1.0 volt is probably under the cutoff voltage of the device in use. BTW, I believe that the early C9000 used 1.0v for a cutoff, later changed to 0.9 to ensure a complete discharge to exercise the chemical conversion.

I have found nothing wrong with a 200 ma charge rate for AAA cells. My reference to a 500 ma charge rate was referring to AA cells. My omission! The missed charge termination reference was with AA cells on a 200 ma charge rate.

Ummm, the question mark at the end of the "missed cutoff" - although I suspect that you already know, a "missed cutoff" is referring to a failure to terminate a charge leading to overcharging the cell. Most chargers are using some sort of a dv/dt sensing - change in voltage over change in time. This means that a healthy NiMH cell under charge will increase the terminal voltage until approximately a full charge is reached around which point the terminal voltage will begin to decrease. The dv/dt tends to be a bit finicky with old or new cells and a strong negative voltage change is often absent or not as pronounced at low charge rates. That is why Maha recommends a higher charge rate to generate a easily measurable negative voltage change. The C9000 starts out with a default of 1000 ma. I believe that the Maha C800S has a "soft" charge rate of 500 ma. The BC-900 has a default rate of 200 ma probably because of the belief at the time that a slower rate was better to fully convert the chemicals back to a charged state. Setting a higher charge rate for all inserted cells on the BC-900 is easily accomplished by depressing the "current' button until the desired rate is shown in the display. of course the limitation is that the rate for newly inserted cells cannot exceed the rate for any cell already under charge.

as for the listed capacity: to my recollection, the listed capacity is determined at the C/10 discharge rate. Higher discharge rates will result in a lower capacity indication. This needs to be factored into consideration when evaluating cells as to recycle or keep condition. Most modern LED flashlights employ a discharge rate between 500 ma to 1000 ma. At a 1000ma discharge rate, many 2700 mah cells will deliver 2100-2300 mah.

as for charge rate, there are a number of posts on CPF that relate the charge rate to the crystal size of the chemicals. Large or small crystal size represents an advantage relative to the highest capacity or the highest voltage under high discharge currents.
 
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Joypog

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Thanks for the info -- .8 X 2100 = 1680! So its right at that line. We'll see what a nice uninterrupted stint of Refreshing at 500/250 mAh will do for these guys....

They've been lasting plenty long enough on my ancient canon a70 p&s camera, but I just got a bigger ultrazoom camera and they last for about 40 shots -- which is fine for messing around doing pet pictures at home, but not a particularly endearing trait outside:sigh:
 

Mr Happy

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They've been lasting plenty long enough on my ancient canon a70 p&s camera, but I just got a bigger ultrazoom camera and they last for about 40 shots -- which is fine for messing around doing pet pictures at home, but not a particularly endearing trait outside:sigh:
Forty shots is not many. It is possible to get 500 or 1000 shots from good cells (eneloops) in the right digital camera . If it were me, I would not spend time trying to refresh 4 year old cells, I would just buy some eneloops :)
 

moldyoldy

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ok, you are on your way with determining if refresh makes a sufficient difference or not.

as an aside, although Maha recommends 0.5 to 1.0 C charge rates, I notice that Maha itself sells a relatively recently designed charger that implies a 1/4 C charge rate. From ThomasDistributing.com:

MH-C800S Specifications:

  • Maha MH-C800S Charge Time: 2 Hr. ( Normal Charge ) / 4Hr. ( Soft Charge ) - regardless of the number of rechargeable batteries
  • Fast Charge Current: 1000mA (AA), 700mA (AAA)
  • Soft Charge Current: 500mA (AA), 350mA (AAA)
  • Conditioning Discharge Current : 250mA
  • The MH-C800S charger has Ultra Precision Control - same capabilities as the Maha MH-C800S Battery Charger just at a slower charge rate.
Noting that the 350ma charge rate is greater than 1/4C for most AAA cells, yet the 500ma is about 1/4C for most high-capacity AA cells. Basically the user acquires his/her own experience with the brand of cells purchased. and those datapoints are not necessarily valid for another brand. Ergo the generic Maha recommendation.
 

moldyoldy

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OK, based on the info I got when I researched here about this a couple years ago or so, this is what I've been doing with AA NiMH batteries. But I'm wondering if this is appropriate for AAAs. I have 8 Rayovac Hybrid NiMH AAA's and 8 newly acquired Eneloop NiMH AAA's and wonder what dis/charge rates I should use. Typically, I Discharge/Charge, but if I notice a significant falloff of capacity shown by the BC-900 I use the Refresh cycle. I've been using dis/charge rates of 100/200 with my AAA's until now, thinking that 250/500 might be excessive with AAA's. So far, I don't know that I've experienced a missed cutoff (?). Occasionally I touch a cell to see if it's heated, but haven't noticed any yet. Is it better to use 250/500 even with AAA's?

The rates you cited should not be excessive with AAA cells. With slow charge rates, the missed termination may not result in noticeable heating. LaCrosse seems to favor a lower charge rate whereas Maha favors a higher charge rate (0.5-1.0C). Given that batteries and charging are the total business for Maha, and Maha has a good reputation, I would go with the Maha recommendation unless I acquired some other experience. I do observe that a 1.0C charge rate results in more heating than I like. However the charge current value needs to be put in context of the charging current waveform which varies widely by charger brands and models.
 

moldyoldy

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I missed the bottom end of the voltage (it did the switch from discharge to charge in the middle of the night and I didn't know to look for it). But I did notice that they topped out at around 1700 before being discharged for the for the next discharge/refresh cycle.

When a 2100mAh battery tops out at 1700mAh -- should I keep trying refreshing it or is it a lost cause?

Thanks!
Justus

The charge mah input should not be considered the discharge capacity. Remember that rechargeable cells are not 100% efficient. The battery books generally cite a return charge of 120-140% of removed capacity. It is best to run a discharge test to determine remaining cell capacity. On the BC-900, as you correctly noticed, you are able to read the discharged capacity if you can notice the reading when the voltage drops below about 1.0v.
 

moldyoldy

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BTW, I agree with Mr. Happy - if you are noticing inadequate run time on a digital camera - which usually has a current draw peak above 1A - just replace the batteries. Even though you may be able to recover some capacity, older cells perform poorly under high current discharge rates. When I was operating my photography hobby (sports & weddings) with my girls, I eventually learned to simply replace all of my Ni-CD and later Ni-MH cells at about the 2 year mark. I simply gave the cells to someone who did not have the $$ to purchase that many cells, usually someone with young children and lots of battery-operated toys.
 

PeAK

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They've been lasting plenty long enough on my ancient canon a70 p&s camera, but I just got a bigger ultrazoom camera and they last for about 40 shots....:sigh:

The Canon A70 probably used 4 batteries stacked to generate a voltage of about 5.2V (4x1.3). The newer cameras will take 2 batteries but use a "DC-to-DC" converter. One of their traits is that as the voltage on the batteries drop, the current demand increases. This is due to a feedback circuit which maintains the voltage of output from the converter to keep output power the same. So to maintain constant power draw from the batteries, as the voltage drops, the current increases.

PeAK
 

SilverFox

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Hello Joypog,

Trying to recover damaged cells is a labor of love. If your time is worth anything at all, it is better just to recycle the cells and purchase new ones.

However, some of us are easily entertained, and between flashlight purchases, we like to play with batteries... :)

It seems that almost all of cell degradation has to do with separator failure, in some manner or other. When starting with new cells, the separator may not be fully saturated, or equally saturated with electrolyte, and we do a 16 hour 0.1C charge to evenly distribute the electrolyte.

In constant use, the final "nooks and crannies" of the separator are finally saturated with electrolyte and the cell capacity will peak. Then we start a downward slope, in capacity, until the cell doesn't hold enough capacity to meet specifications.

Keep in mind that this downward slope is natural, and the cell eventually wears out. This is considered normal wear and tear. If your cells are worn out, there is nothing that you can do to bring them back. However, if some "premature" aging has taken place due to something like extended storage, then you may be able to restore life to your cells.

Your original question asked if there was a best charge/discharge rate to use when trying to restore life to your "abused" cells. I will turn this around and say that there is a technique that is used that involves different charge and discharge rates.

Before we get started on this, let me stand up on my soap box and say that the best way to restore your cells health is to make sure they never get sick in the first place. Batteries perform best when they are used. Storage tends to be hard on batteries, so limit your "extra" purchases and try to use all of your cells as much as you can.

It is good to have some extra's on hand, so let's look at how to take care of them. When you get new cells, check the open circuit voltage. Any that are below 1.0 volts (1.2 volts is better) should be returned and replaced with newer stock. Next you should do a 16 hour charge at 0.1C and a discharge at 0.2C to determine the cells capacity. This tested capacity should be in close agreement with the manufacturers data sheet capacity. If you can't find a data sheet, then you are on your own and will have to simply note the tested capacity. Keep in mind that tested capacity is often different from labeled capacity.

Any cells that fall short of the manufacturers specifications should be sent back and replaced.

Finally, the best way to store NiMh cells is to discharge them (at 0.5C or 1.0C) down to 1.0 volt and store them discharged. After 30 days of storage you should exercise the cell by running a charge/discharge cycle on them. This will keep your cells in top condition and they will be ready to enter into service when needed.

The low self discharge cells are a little different and we are still learning about them. They originally didn't benefit from a standard charge, but now it seems that they do. Since nothing is lost in doing this break in or forming charge, I think it should be done on them as well.

In storage, we have seem some increase in internal resistance when they are stored completely charged. This seems to be reversible, but I am not running some tests storing the cells at 50%, instead of fully charged.

The low self discharge rate means that the cells are more stable and a monthly charge/discharge cycle is not needed. I have found that if you stretch this out to a year, the cells need a few cycles to come up to peak performance. I am now recommending running a charge/discharge cycle every 6 months, or if you want better performance from your cells, every 3 months.

Cells should be charged and discharged in the 0.5 - 1.0C range and stored in a cool location, but they don't have to be refrigerated.

OK, I'll hop off the soap box now...

To try and restore some life to old cells you need to reverse any damage or deficiencies that have occurred within the separator in the cell. Any damage that has occurred to the electrodes is most likely permanent and can't be reversed.

Start by discharging the cell at the highest rate you can up to a maximum rate of 1C. At the end of the discharge, let the cell rest for an hour, then repeat the discharge at half the rate originally used. Once again let the cell rest for an hour, then keep discharging at rates reduced in steps until you get down to the lowest rate you can discharge at.

The low voltage cut off for all this discharging is 0.9 volts, although sometimes I will go a little lower during the very last discharge cycle. If your set up doesn't allow for discharging below 0.9 volts, you can take the cell, after all of your discharging, and put it into a single cell light and run it for a short period of time watching the light. If the beam is steady, things are progressing well. If the beam flickers, more work will be necessary.

We now have a completely discharged cell. The next step is to do a 16 hour 0.1C charge. If your charger doesn't let you do this, charge at the lowest rate and set a timer. Attend to the charge and if it terminates early, stop the timer, let the cell cool down, and start the charge again. If it terminates again, you have done as much as you can do, but it is better if you can charge for the full 16 hours.

Note the temperature of the cell during this standard charge. Warmer cells indicate more damage within the cell, and also indicate that more work will be necessary to try to restore them.

The next step is to do a discharge. Once again I am looking for a discharge rate in the range of 0.5 - 1.0C. You can note the capacity during this discharge and see if you have any improvement. At this point I generally do 2 additional discharges, but it depends on what the cell is telling me.

Next the cell needs to be cycled 3 - 5 times.

Now it is time to once again do the standard charge (16 hours at 0.1C) followed by the standard discharge (0.2C) to check capacity. If you are not within 80% of the cells original capacity, it is time to recycle the cell.

Finally we need to check the cells internal resistance. During a 0.5C discharge, the mid point voltage of the cell should be around 1.2 volts.

As you can see, the process is a little involved and can extend over several days. You can run different variations of this, but I still insist that the best way to restore a cell is to keep it from getting in that condition in the first place.

Tom
 

emr

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Storing cells in a discharged state removes the primary advantage of Low Self Discharge cells. Also, Sanyo published that the Nickel-Metal Hydride cells can be stored indefinitely in a charged or discharged state, with capacity almost completely restored after 2 to 3 charge/discharge cycles.

Why do you disagree? What evidence do you have that supports storage of discharged cells?

from Sanyo:

1z48geu.jpg
 

SilverFox

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Hello Emr,

I agree that storing low self discharge rate cells in a discharged condition removes the primary advantage of this chemistry. That is why I store them at about 50%.

Let's look at the graphs you posted.

I expect my cells to remain vibrant. This means that I when I need them, they will be ready to go and give me excellent performance immediately after charging.

After 1 month of fully charged storage, Sanyo indicates that I can expect about 96% of full capacity on the first charge cycle. On the other hand, if the cell is stored discharged, I can expect about 102%.

I prefer to shoot for 102%... :)

These graphs only show capacity. If you look at voltage under load you will see that cells stored charged end up with lower voltage under load than cells stored discharged.

Also, keep in mind that this is looking at 1 month of storage. What do you think happens after a longer period?

Tom
 

Joypog

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Hello Joypog,

Trying to recover damaged cells is a labor of love. If your time is worth anything at all, it is better just to recycle the cells and purchase new ones.

Tom

Wow..that is intense...but I'm printing it out and we'll see if I wanna mess with this over the next few days....otherwise, eneloops it is!

Thanks!
 

emr

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SilverFox said:
It seems that almost all of cell degradation has to do with separator failure, in some manner or other.

Sanyo describes the primary factor affecting lifetime is drying of the separators, accelerated by over-charging, over-discharging, and elevated temperature. When over-charging, the negative electrode will deteriorate by consuming excess oxygen formed at the positive electrode.

SilverFox said:
After 1 month of fully charged storage, Sanyo indicates that I can expect about 96% of full capacity on the first charge cycle. On the other hand, if the cell is stored discharged, I can expect about 102%.
I prefer to shoot for 102%...

Recovery of cell capacity with storage at temperatures greater than 30C will be impaired, but assume lower temperature so the cell can recover almost completely after storage.

The choice for storage is between a completely discharged cell that recovers 102% capacity with the first charge after storage, a partially discharged LSD cell that starts at 50% capacity, and an initially fully charged cell that recovers a slightly lower 96% capacity at first charge.

SilverFox said:
Also, keep in mind that this is looking at 1 month of storage. What do you think happens after a longer period?

Comparing non-LSD with LSD cells
With LSD, the initially fully charged cell has 85% capacity after one year of storage, rather than 0% capacity of the discharged cell. The 50% charged LSD cell may have 45% capacity after one year. I see the advantage for the charged cell that is ready for immediate use.
There may be no charger available and you cannot wait, and carrying charged spares helps in that case.
 
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SilverFox

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Hello Emr,

I classify separator drying as a form of separator failure. Regular charge/discharge cycles (every 30 days or sooner) goes a long way to keeping the electrolyte evenly distributed in an effort to eliminate dry spots in the separator.

Just to clarify my comments, I am discussing cells that are in storage. Not cells that are in normal use.

If you have a set of cells that you use in your light or other battery powered device, and a set that you use for back ups to that set and alternate between the two sets, these cells are in use. On the other hand, if you stock up on a couple hundred extra cells (or even a few extra) because you got a good deal on them and plan to set them on the shelf until your cells that are in use wear out, these cells are in storage.

If you store your cells discharged and do a charge/discharge cycle every 30 days (or every 3 months for low self discharge rate cells), you will be pleased that your stored cells will remain vibrant when you go to finally use them. However, if you charge your cells and simply store them, you will end up coming back here asking how to restore your cells to decent working condition.

It is true that a low self discharge rate cell will have most of its capacity left after a year of storage, but it will provide that capacity at a lower voltage under load. If you periodically exercise them, they will perform like they did when they were new.

Tom
 
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