Oracle 35W HID

[windstrings]

Windy already touched on this but to repeat it for myself he's saying that in order to fit 27mm reflectors vs 20mm reflectors you'd have to give up a few emitters in order that everything would still fit. If I have that premise correct, then I would really question whether or not lux would increase as suggested by Wayne.

I didn't even consider that he was talking about going to 27mm reflectors and leaving the main housing the same.
You would definitely lose brightness, throw, it all to drop in number as the larger reflectors would not gain near the output lost by dropping LED numbers.
You would however increase runtime on that same battery pack!

If the head of the flashlight is not going to be any bigger to accommodate "12" LED's, I wouldn't go for the bigger ones if you want max brightness.

Sorry, this thread is semi highjacked, but it all ties in together and makes for interesting reading!

For a couple of hundred bucks, you can't beat the Oracle if your looking for a final product with tons of lumens!

Jumping to 50W with the L50 will be noticeable, but will cost you!

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

Not sure what your asking.. you will need a 50W ballast to fire a 50W bulb. a 50W ballast will also fire a 35W bulb but will sacrific some bulb life.
But you "can't" fire a 50W bulb with a 35W ballast... so if you could find a 50W ballast and get it in, your basically modding the whole light.

Yep! 50W bulb with 50W ballast. You're right it's like modding the whole light but my very concern is the reflector. Coz I'm not sure if the reflector is meant to use no more than 35W HID bulb (I thought you have you have to use a larger reflector on 50W bulb )
Sorry for the confusions

[Juggernaut]

LOUSYGREATWALLGM check your PM in box if you haven’t all ready.

[Patriot]

Thanks! I've got another idea what if I'll replace the 35W with 50W HID bulb on the Oracle including the ballast? Will it be great (same reflector to be used)? Or it will just burn the unit?

Even if there is a round 50W existing somewhere in the world that would fit inside the body of the Oracle, you'd be talking about some major modding. You'd likely have to machine out the body and plant transplant potted bulbs. Chances are that it can't even be physically done.

The same reflector could be used if it were possible.

[windstrings]

Unless you were in it for the fun, you'd be better off just buying the L50.

Of course going to Kroger and buying fish is "far" cheaper than buying the lures, gas, time and resources to catch them.. but thats the fun!

The strengths of the Oracle is that the final performance of lumens, runtime is good, its build of sturdiness and aluminum rather than plastic, options of focus, extra accessories included, Lithium Ion battery, pilot light on the battery.

The weaknesses are Limitations to throw if compared to a spotlight "its really a flashlight that has throw", you have to take the battery out to charge it, some have reported self battery drain under certain conditions, and if compared to other types of bulbs its not instant on. "unless you just turned it off in the last few seconds".

Its a killer light for the price offered and can't be beat by anything I can think of.
The brightness overwhelmingly makes up for any weaknesses.

It does have a "wow" factor every time you turn it on!

If you want more juice, you "will" pay!

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

Anybody tried using your 35W HID Oracle flashlight for 30minutes or more (non-stop operation)? Coz last night when our light went off I grab my light and started using it for around 30 minutes or more, while using it the lens broke into 3 parts .
I really didn't expect the lens to break that fast Anyway is it just an ordinary lens?

[Patriot]

Sorry about your lens LG, this is the first case I've heard of with regards to the lens. Most HID lights use high temperature glass and should be able to run continuously without an problem. Most likely you had a faulty lens to begin with and it needed just the "right" trigger to crack it. Call up AAC and ask tell them what happened. I'm sure they'll arrange a replacement for you.

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

Hi Pat, what kind of light meter would you suggest me to get?

[Patriot]

It depends on what you want to spend but they can be had for as little as $30, which will work just fine for informal flashlight measurements.

Try deal extreme.

[LuxLuthor]

With a UCL type lens a light will loose from 1%-4% of lumens out the front...

Did you mean lose, or perhaps you were distinguishing properties of a loosely fitting UCL lens?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. My perverted sense of humor always interferes with my left brain.

In all seriousness, there are many erudite points being made in this thread.

Couple other points about reflectors in general that I did not see mentioned are:

1) They all have a focal length. This comes into play when a light (typically incan or HID) source can be moved forward and back to work with the focal point. If I was designing a LED light to take advantage of a reflector, I would try to mount at least 3-4 on the sides of a lollipop shaped stalk (containing wires). At least this way, the multi-LED output could be aimed at sides of reflector and adjusted in the focal point. Obviously heatsinking is the biggest limitation. The aspheric & DEFT LED's give an example using a lens (& no reflector) as to the effect of using a focal point. If you want to get real fancy, you could make a magnetically driven rotating stalk at sufficient rpm's to minimize artifacts....but I digress.

2) The shape of a reflector can have a significant effect on light source performance. Look at FiveMega's 2" Deep, 2.5" Turbo to see how he was playing with the direction and distance that eminated light waves bounce around inside the reflector. Another idea using a more traditional base-mounted LED light source is to put a fish-eye reflector out in front of the LED. It would have to be sufficient distance and small diameter to minimize its' central output blocking, while directing output into the reflector.

3) There are a variety of reflector surfaces including silver, rhodium and levels of reflectance quality within categories. There is an old thread somewhere that discusses this in more detail....but I remember a brief mention by Ra in his Maxablaster thread.

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

It depends on what you want to spend but they can be had for as little as $30, which will work just fine for informal flashlight measurements.

Try deal extreme.

Have you tried to order and successfully got the item from Deal Extreme? I read some reviews from that site recently and found many negative buyer comments (ie. didn't receive the item, 30 days after payment date and still no items receive, etc.). In fact I was about to order the Fenix TK40 from that site then I saw those negative reviews . Is the TK40 originated in China?

[Juggernaut]

Anybody tried using your 35W HID Oracle flashlight for 30minutes or more (non-stop operation)? Coz last night when our light went off I grab my light and started using it for around 30 minutes or more, while using it the lens broke into 3 parts .
I really didn't expect the lens to break that fast Anyway is it just an ordinary lens?

Were you using it at 28 or 35 watts? I always steep down to 28 watts if I have the light on for more then 10 minuets, I’ve ran if for more then 30 minuets a few times and have had no problems.

[Patriot]

Have you tried to order and successfully got the item from Deal Extreme? I read some reviews from that site recently and found many negative buyer comments (ie. didn't receive the item, 30 days after payment date and still no items receive, etc.). In fact I was about to order the Fenix TK40 from that site then I saw those negative reviews . Is the TK40 originated in China?

I've made several succussful orders from DX, but if you're uneasy about it, follow your feelings. Light meters under a $100 all work about the same so do a google search and see what looks good. The brand, "Meterman" is usually build well.

Yes, Fenix is made in China. I would suggest using 4Sevens.com if you're going to get the TK40. CPF members get 8% off.

[Patriot]

Did you mean lose, or perhaps you were distinguishing properties of a loosely fitting UCL lens?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. My perverted sense of humor always interferes with my left brain.

In all seriousness, there are many erudite points being made in this thread.

Couple other points about reflectors in general that I did not see mentioned are:

1) They all have a focal length. This comes into play when a light (typically incan or HID) source can be moved forward and back to work with the focal point. If I was designing a LED light to take advantage of a reflector, I would try to mount at least 3-4 on the sides of a lollipop shaped stalk (containing wires). At least this way, the multi-LED output could be aimed at sides of reflector and adjusted in the focal point. Obviously heatsinking is the biggest limitation.

yes lose. I'm the king of spelling and grammar blunders. I know that you're just picking on me. Speaking of grammar, I can't remember the las time I saw "erudite" used in a sentence. I think I was in school still....lol.


Did you know that someone has already made a lollipop mod like you're speaking of? It was a post with an LuxIII on each side shining directly against the reflector. The host was a Surefire C2 or M2 with a turbo head. I have no idea where that old thread is though and I haven't really thought about it for 3-4 years.

Besides the problem with heat sinking it makes for a oddly shaped beam. The other problem I was pondering is that when the LED shines 100% of its light onto the reflector, all of it is subject to reflector absorption loss.

Now I'm sitting here thinking of that lollipop arrangement. I wonder if I saw that over in Craig's LED museum? I'm off to check .............

[PhantomPhoton]

I have run my Oracle 35W at full power for the entire battery life without any apparent ill effects. I'd still like to see a smooth reflector for it.

[LuxLuthor]

I was thinking you would need at least 3 LED's on the lollipop. The way they were angled and type of reflector would be important. The other idea instead of having flat typical square LED's is to wrap component LED wires around a post so the output is more spherical. I have several other ideas of ways to experiement with LED's but my heart is not in that light source.

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

Were you using it at 28 or 35 watts? I always steep down to 28 watts if I have the light on for more then 10 minuets, I’ve ran if for more then 30 minuets a few times and have had no problems.

Yep! I'm aware of that too. So I used it at 28W only. And it was my first full operation.

I have run my Oracle 35W at full power for the entire battery life without any apparent ill effects. I'd still like to see a smooth reflector for it.

Thanks for the helpful info!

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

Hello Pros, I saw someone selling same battery pack but 35W/25W, will the 35W/28W Oracle HID flashlight work as 35W/25W without damaging the ballast/bulb?

[Patriot]

Hello Pros, I saw someone selling same battery pack but 35W/25W, will the 35W/28W Oracle HID flashlight work as 35W/25W without damaging the ballast/bulb?

Since I don't know the specific battery you're describing I'm speaking generally, but yes the battery pack would be fine as long as the voltage remains the same as the original pack.

A light like the Oracle designed to operate from a 11.1V (3 x li-ion cells) battery will work from any 11.1V battery regardless of the ballast's output wattage. Some other HID ballasts are designed to operate from 14.8V batteries (4 x li-ion cells) and thus always require packs of that same voltage range. Too much voltage will overdrive the ballast and too little voltage will not allow it to operate.

In short, if the battery fits into the light, the contact points are the same, and the voltage is the same the light will turn on and operate properly. To recharge the light would also require the proper protection circuitry contained in the original battery.

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

Since I don't know the specific battery you're describing I'm speaking generally, but yes the battery pack would be fine as long as the voltage remains the same as the original pack.

A light like the Oracle designed to operate from a 11.1V (3 x li-ion cells) battery will work from any 11.1V battery regardless of the ballast's output wattage. Some other HID ballasts are designed to operate from 14.8V batteries (4 x li-ion cells) and thus always require packs of that same voltage range. Too much voltage will overdrive the ballast and too little voltage will not allow it to operate.

In short, if the battery fits into the light, the contact points are the same, and the voltage is the same the light will turn on and operate properly. To recharge the light would also require the proper protection circuitry contained in the original battery.

Thanks! Great to know that.
Do I get it right? Let us say I'll replace the 35W bulb with a 50W one, all I have to do is to get a different battery pack (same size & contact points) but with 50W output to have the newly installed bulb illuminate at 50W?

[Patriot]

Thanks! Great to know that.
Do I get it right? Let us say I'll replace the 35W bulb with a 50W one, all I have to do is to get a different battery pack (same size & contact points) but with 50W output to have the newly installed bulb illuminate at 50W?

No sir, that's not correct.

You would also need different ballast appropriate for that bulb wattage. Running a 50W bulb together with a 35W ballast would only serve to terribly under drive it, resulting in very poor performance. Typially best results are had when bulbs are driven to spec or slightly overdriven if they can handle it, as in the case of high quality bulbs like GE, Phillips, and Osram.


The battery pack doesn't determine the output of the ballast. The ballast itself is the regulating factor to the bulb. Every ballast operates within a designed voltage range but the ballast regulates the voltage to supply a constant to the bulb. There are a few non-regulated ballasts out there but for the sake on conversation I'm talking about the overwhelming majority of ballasts.

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

Now I'll go back with my previous question and try to be more specific . The 35W Oracle is originally 35W/28W and I want to have it 35W/25W by using a different battery pack with same size/Volts/contact points etc. except for the wattage coz its 35W/25W. Will it work at 35W/25W with no additional stress to the bulb and ballast?

[Patriot]

Now I'll go back with my previous question and try to be more specific . The 35W Oracle is originally 35W/28W and I want to have it 35W/25W by using a different battery pack with same size/Volts/contact points etc. except for the wattage coz its 35W/25W. Will it work at 35W/25W with no additional stress to the bulb and ballast?

Here goes my second try. First reply lost the the classic cpf "database error" message.


I speculated a bit about exactly what you were asking originally because I wanted to save you the grief of a back and forth. In any case I believe I understand what you're asking now.

A seller is offering what they call a 25/35W battery for Oracle type lights. You're wondering if using this battery will give you 25W on the low setting instead of 35W.

Since I believe that all Oracles and the generic versions of it sold are 28/35W lights, I'm guessing that the seller has made a misprint by listing it as compatible for 25/35W lights. Whatever the case, the battery doesn't decide the voltage to the bulb, the ballast does. All the ballast requires of the battery is that it's of the correct voltage range. There is no such thing as a 25/35W or 28/35W batteries, only ballasts. If there is indeed a 25W low setting light, that would be a function of the ballast alone. The battery has nothing to do with the output to the bulb.

Hope that helps.

[Patriot]

Hello Pros, I saw someone selling same battery pack but 35W/25W, will the 35W/28W Oracle HID flashlight work as 35W/25W without damaging the ballast/bulb?

The only way for the Oracle to operate at 25W instead of 35W would be to replace the ballast with one set to 25W instead of 28W. Simply replacing the battery will do nothing to change the output values of your Oracle.

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

hmm.. I think I'm getting close So the Oracle has 2 ballast, One for high and one for low?

[Patriot]

hmm.. I think I'm getting close So the Oracle has 2 ballast, One for high and one for low?

It has one ballast that is able to switch between two levels of output. It's called a 2 stage or dual output ballast. These levels are fixed (in the Oracle) to 28W and 35W. To have an oracle run at 25W and 35W that would require a new (2 stage) ballast designed to run at the "lower low" level, which to my knowledge isn't an option for that generic series of HID. This all means that you're stuck with fixed outputs of 28W and 35W from your light.

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

It has one ballast that is able to switch between two levels of output. It's called a 2 stage or dual output ballast. These levels are fixed (in the Oracle) to 28W and 35W. To have an oracle run at 25W and 35W that would require a new (2 stage) ballast designed to run at the "lower low" level, which to my knowledge isn't an option for that generic series of HID. This all means that you're stuck with fixed outputs of 28W and 35W from your light.

You are the BEST!! Crystal clear explanations!
Btw, remember Mugrunty's Philips dl50 HID bulb on the other thread? Where do they plan to use the bulb? Because I want to have a more powerful "flashlight" than this Oracle 35W. Tried several days searching for one but all the higher power found are searchlights and spotlights The PH50 beam is adjustable right? But can we adjust the throw (with some flood) like how the Oracle throw? I saw some PH50 outdoor shots but I felt it as 50/50 throw-flood and didn't feel like getting one even it do 5000+ lumens. If any of the PH 50/45/40 can set to 80% throw with 20% flood then I might get one

[Patriot]

You are the BEST!! Crystal clear explanations!
Btw, remember Mugrunty's Philips dl50 HID bulb on the other thread? Where do they plan to use the bulb? Because I want to have a more powerful "flashlight" than this Oracle 35W. Tried several days searching for one but all the higher power found are searchlights and spotlights The PH50 beam is adjustable right? But can we adjust the throw (with some flood) like how the Oracle throw? I saw some PH50 outdoor shots but I felt it as 50/50 throw-flood and didn't feel like getting one even it do 5000+ lumens. If any of the PH 50/45/40 can set to 80% throw with 20% flood then I might get one

The Fat boy buyers are typically people who are using high powered ballasts from 50-90W for mods on spot lights.

If you're looking for a more powerful light it's going to be a spot light type, meaning some form of light with a carry handle. I don't think you'd like the idea of an 18" long flashlight or something so fat that you couldn't get your hands around it. When you increase power, ballasts get larger and more battery capacity is needed. Just the laws of physics man. You can either buy a 50W light like the L50 or mod a spotlight to use a 50-55W ballast and bulb.

The PH50 doesn't have and adjustable beam. It's pre-focused at the factory for the ideal beam pattern. Speaking of focus, there's technically no such thing as "adjustable" focus. There is only one point at which the arc is "in focus" with the reflector. Moving the bulb in or out at that point only serves to de-focus the beam to varying degree.

The problem with your percentage examples are that there is no way to measure what is "throw" and what is "flood"(corona + spill). What you're calling 50/50 for the Polarion might actually be 10/90 throw/flood since most of the PH50's light is not projected within the 3 degree collimated portion of the beam. It would require multiple calibrated light meters and readings taken at each degree of the beam to even begin to figured out that math equation. We never talk in terms of percent because we just don't have a clue about it and to measure it isn't realistic.

EDIT: To expound on the above point, HID beam characteristics are going to be determined by 5 main things:

Reflector size
Reflector shape
Wattage
Reflector texture
Reflector coatings

Based on these starting points you can get a general idea as to how a light is going to perform combined with the manufacturers stated beam angle. Add to that direct beamshot comparisons between lights and that gives most people a pretty good idea of what to expect before they make a purchase. Therefore, discard the percentage thinking and draw your conclusions by this general formula instead.

Let me put it this way, if you purchased a PH40, L50 or Xevision50W, there's probably no lighting task that they wouldn't accomplish on a practical level. When we occasionally find it necessary to illuminate something brightly at extended ranges that's when the big reflectors have to come out.

[windstrings]

Do we even know what "wattage" the bulb is in the oracle?....

I guess I took for granted it was 35W.. but I don't think I read that anywhere and seems this is a proprietary setup as the bulb is mounted to the ballast.

If the bulb is 35W.... it would prob not be good to run on 28W mode too much as it would be underdriven.... if the bulb is rather a lower wattage then it would be ok.... which would mean its overdriven a bit at 35W and so slightly less bulb life when ran at that higher setting consistently.

Most decent bulbs apparently don't mind being overdriven a bit, but not underdriven.
Overdriving increases internal pressures more... some bulbs aren't good at taking these extra pressures.
28W and 35W is so close it may be a non issue.

I suppose this is the curse with any dual wattage HID setup.
Not so much a curse, but rather a symptom.

The beauty of the Fatboys are the thicker glass and ability to take abuse from higher pressures. That particular bulb cannot be harnessed to the Oracle as its designed for higher wattages.

[LOUSYGREATWALLGM]

If you're looking for a more powerful light it's going to be a spot light type, meaning some form of light with a carry handle. I don't think you'd like the idea of an 18" long flashlight or something so fat that you couldn't get your hands around it. When you increase power, ballasts get larger and more battery capacity is needed. Just the laws of physics man. You can either buy a 50W light like the L50 or mod a spotlight to use a 50-55W ballast and bulb.

Of course not! I wont like it if its 18" long but if the physical built is similar with the PH50, it wont be a problem.

The PH50 doesn't have and adjustable beam. It's pre-focused at the factory for the ideal beam pattern. Speaking of focus, there's technically no such thing as "adjustable" focus. There is only one point at which the arc is "in focus" with the reflector. Moving the bulb in or out at that point only serves to de-focus the beam to varying degree.

BY moving the bulb in or out will only affect the corona? But the spill will remain the same?
Do I understand it right, the spill is the light spreading?

The problem with your percentage examples are that there is no way to measure what is "throw" and what is "flood"(corona + spill). What you're calling 50/50 for the Polarion might actually be 10/90 throw/flood since most of the PH50's light is not projected within the 3 degree collimated portion of the beam. It would require multiple calibrated light meters and readings taken at each degree of the beam to even begin to figured out that math equation. We never talk in terms of percent because we just don't have a clue about it and to measure it isn't realistic.

It's just an imaginary example coz that's the only way I could explain my preference for the light.
I dont even know how many degrees do the Oracle have

Let me put it this way, if you purchased a PH40, L50 or Xevision50W, there's probably no lighting task that they wouldn't accomplish on a practical level. When we occasionally find it necessary to illuminate something brightly at extended ranges that's when the big reflectors have to come out.

Thanks! Thanks! Thanks! This is what I wanted to ask you guys several times but didn't have the chance Maybe the light I'm trying to find doesn't exist yet. Thanks again!
Just one more question, if we compare the PH50 and Oracle 35W who can illuminate the subject farther?