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Thread: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

  1. #1
    Flashaholic PsychoBunny's Avatar
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    Smile Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Here is a list of the most popular LED emitters I see used in
    flashlights (or have seen used). Could you guys tell me the following:

    A) How much current each one needs for maximum output.
    B) What is the max output (in lumens) for each.
    C) What are the different tint/BINS available for each.

    MC-E
    R2
    P3
    P4
    Q4
    Q5


    I did get some nice info in PDF format on the CREE website, but
    much of it I dont understand.
    Also, how come I never here about Luxeon being used in flashlights?

    P.S. Did I leave any group codes out? Also, I assume each emitter needs
    a drive engine? You cant just stick it on a battery!?
    So, what exactly is a engine? What does it consist of?

    Any other comments or tech info (thermal properties, etc.) would be very
    helpful
    Last edited by PsychoBunny; 03-24-2009 at 09:05 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBunny View Post
    Here is a list of the most popular LED emitters I see used in
    flashlights (or have seen used). Could you guys tell me the following:

    A) How much current each one needs for maximum output.
    B) What is the max output (in lumens) for each.
    C) What are the different tint/BINS available for each.

    MC-E
    R2
    P3
    P4
    Q4
    Q5


    I did get some nice info in PDF format on the CREE website, but
    much of it I dont understand.
    Also, how come I never here about Luxeon being used in flashlights?

    P.S. Did I leave any group codes out? Also, I assume each emitter needs
    a drive engine? You cant just stick it on a battery!?
    So, what exactly is a engine? What does it consist of?

    Any other comments or tech info (thermal properties, etc.) would be very
    helpful
    MC-E is a family of emitters -- quad-die, up to 700 or 750mA /die (don't remember which).

    The others are all luminous flux bins, typically when used alone referring to an XR-E, but also to others. XR-Es are single-die, up to 1A for all flux bins, but you'll get different brightnesses. They're ordered as P<Q<R, and Q2<Q5<R2, and you can find the actual flux ranges in lumens in the binning and labeling sheet for each emitter family of interest. IIRC, they're binned according to lumens at 350mA, not at maximum current, so you may need to multiply them by a fixed factor; you can get that off the datasheet, which has a relative intensity vs. drive current graph; just look at the top end.

    Generally, lower CCT (warmer white) color bins are only available in lower flux bins, because of the lower efficiency; not sure where the actual threshold of availability lies.

  3. #3
    Flashaholic PsychoBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by Benson View Post
    MC-E is a family of emitters -- quad-die, up to 700 or 750mA /die (don't remember which).

    The others are all luminous flux bins, typically when used alone referring to an XR-E, but also to others. XR-Es are single-die, up to 1A for all flux bins, but you'll get different brightnesses. They're ordered as P<Q<R, and Q2<Q5<R2, and you can find the actual flux ranges in lumens in the binning and labeling sheet for each emitter family of interest. IIRC, they're binned according to lumens at 350mA, not at maximum current, so you may need to multiply them by a fixed factor; you can get that off the datasheet, which has a relative intensity vs. drive current graph; just look at the top end.

    Generally, lower CCT (warmer white) color bins are only available in lower flux bins, because of the lower efficiency; not sure where the actual threshold of availability lies.
    Yikes! you lost me what's a "quad-die"?
    Also what do you mean MC-E is a family? What are the members of the
    family?
    Define the following: XR-E (is this another family of emitters?), "flux
    bin", and IIRC

    I have no understanding of this basic stuff, and that is what I am trying
    to learn

    On CREE's website, stuff like Q4, P3, R2, etc. are referred to as "group codes". So, they are groups of what?

    I know stuff like WC, WH, etc. designate a color temp. does that designation apply to all the "group codes"?
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  4. #4
    *Flashaholic* Marduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Every one of your questions is answered in one of the stickies. Either the binning and labeling thread in the LED section, or the Welcome Mat, or pinned in the general threads of interest in the General Flashlight Section

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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    As for engine/drivers, take a look at DN81 - Lighting design note handbook for a good overview.

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    Flashaholic PsychoBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by Marduke View Post
    Every one of your questions is answered in one of the stickies. Either the binning and labeling thread in the LED section, or the Welcome Mat, or pinned in the general threads of interest in the General Flashlight Section
    Yep, I saw the sticky in the LED section on binning, but I only see
    Luxeon, no CREE, do they use the same codes?
    I could not find a "Welcome Mat" thread can you tell me where it is?
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    Flashaholic* Zeruel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please


  8. #8
    Flashaholic PsychoBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Thank you

    I think it's getting clearer to me.
    So XR-E is a "series" of CREE "XLamps" and it includes "BIN codes":
    R2, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, P3, P4 and P5.

    CREE MC-E is a different series of XLamps.

    If I say to someone, "I want a Q5", would they assume it's part of the
    XR-E series, or are these BIN codes also used in different series, MC-E
    for instance?
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  9. #9
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    Default

    You should always mention the led type (XR-E, MC-E, Rebel, ...) to fight confusion.

    f.e. the Seoul competitor to the XR-E is named "P4" - which also is an older brightness bin of the XR-E


    the "normal" led are single-emitters, they house "just" one emitter plate.
    the MC-E is a quad-die, because it houses four emitter plates. The Equivalent from Seoul is called "P7"
    Plus is, that the package is much smaller (means less cost for focusing devices + less space needed),
    neg is, that 4 times the power needed does not equal to 4 times the light (its 3 times at best), and that heat production is brutally higher --> more effort in thermal path necessary


    in case of the actual "Q5" and "R2" brightness bins, there is no confusion, that can only be an XR-E


    PS: aside from the (more important) brightness bin, there is also the tint for choosing a led, thats the light color.
    Sure, all of them are white, but with variations.
    this one here gives a bit of insight.
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=156772
    Last edited by yellow; 03-24-2009 at 01:00 PM.

  10. #10
    Flashaholic* Yoda4561's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBunny View Post
    Thank you

    I think it's getting clearer to me.
    So XR-E is a "series" of CREE "XLamps" and it includes "BIN codes":
    R2, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, P3, P4 and P5.

    CREE MC-E is a different series of XLamps.

    If I say to someone, "I want a Q5", would they assume it's part of the
    XR-E series, or are these BIN codes also used in different series, MC-E
    for instance?
    They'll probably assume you meant an XR-E. Do specify though, as the XP-E series (luxeon rebel sized emitters) use the same bin codes for brightness. The MCE uses a different numbering scheme. As far as I know color bins (warm/neutral 5A, cool white WC, etc) are shared across the entire Cree lineup.

  11. #11
    *Flashaholic* Marduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBunny View Post
    Yep, I saw the sticky in the LED section on binning, but I only see
    Luxeon, no CREE, do they use the same codes?
    I could not find a "Welcome Mat" thread can you tell me where it is?
    It contains Luxeon, SSC, Cree, and Osram.
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=156772

  12. #12

    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda4561 View Post
    They'll probably assume you meant an XR-E. Do specify though, as the XP-E series (luxeon rebel sized emitters) use the same bin codes for brightness.
    I believe the XR-C and XP-C also use the same flux bin codes. (They're basically similar to XR-E and XP-E, but lower max current, IIRC...)

  13. #13
    Flashaholic PsychoBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    OK, cool, so Q5, R2, P3 etc are brightness codes, and the color codes
    are WC, WH etc.?

    Isnt R2 a XR-E emitter? I think it's their newest one?
    The reason I ask, I dont see it listed on the Cree website
    The brightness codes are in order so R2 would be the brightest, with
    Q5 being less bright, etc?
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    *Flashaholic* Gunner12's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    XR-E is the model name(part of the Xlamp series, which is in this stickie that Marduke posted to), so is the MC-E, XP-E, XR-C, and a few more. The flux bins will be in the spec sheet of the LED, not on the page itself. This also goes for a lot of the other LEDs and their companies too.

    Persuming the same drive current, an R2 bin will be brighter then a Q5 bin, which is brighter then a Q4 bin, which is brighter then a Q3 bin, which is brighter then a Q2 bin, which is brighter then a P4 bin, and so on. The R2 bin is their most recent flux bin, but the XR-E LEDs have been around since 2006.

  15. #15
    Flashaholic* bshanahan14rulz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Models of x-power

    xr-e : high power emitter
    xr-c : less capable of high current

    xp-e : surface mount small form factor version of the xr-e (the entire package is about the size of the dome on the xr-e)
    xp-c : surface mount small form factor version of the xr-c

    mc-e : 4-die package. contains 4 chips where the above models only have one.


    These have brightness codes, the higher the letter-number comination, the brighter they are.

    color codes seem to be warmer the higher the letter-number combination are.

    Cree doesn't manufacture leds saying "ok, this next batch will be q2 5a, lets add some of this and a little of that," etc.
    Instead, they make the LEDs, test them, and sort them according to how they perform. You could say they throw the LEDs into different "bins"

  16. #16
    Flashaholic PsychoBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by bshanahan14rulz View Post
    Models of x-power

    xr-e : high power emitter
    xr-c : less capable of high current

    xp-e : surface mount small form factor version of the xr-e (the entire package is about the size of the dome on the xr-e)
    xp-c : surface mount small form factor version of the xr-c

    mc-e : 4-die package. contains 4 chips where the above models only have one.


    These have brightness codes, the higher the letter-number comination, the brighter they are.

    color codes seem to be warmer the higher the letter-number combination are.

    Cree doesn't manufacture leds saying "ok, this next batch will be q2 5a, lets add some of this and a little of that," etc.
    Instead, they make the LEDs, test them, and sort them according to how they perform. You could say they throw the LEDs into different "bins"
    I like your wording, nice and simple, easy to understand for the mentally challenged (that means me!! )
    Thanks

    So, the same bin codes (color tint and brightness) aply to all models of LED's (XR-E, XR-C, MC-E, etc.), correct?
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    yes, and this really is explained in the Cree PDFs.

    Binning and labelling for the MC-E explains the difference between the various tints and the bins they could be in when you order from a batch. You will need to understand colour temperatures before reading.
    I really, really don't understand what's difficult to read about a graph showing current input against lumens, as in this PDF: http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLamp7090XR-E.pdf - up to 1A and more is fine, but then your problem is heat.

    This is really, really basic LED stuff.

    Lux aren't used because.. well, whatever, they're not widely used.

    Bret

  18. #18
    Flashaholic PsychoBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Thanks for the link.
    I had not seen that particular pdf yet, and it does explain things rather
    clearly
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  19. #19
    Flashaholic PsychoBunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by bretti_kivi View Post
    I really, really don't understand what's difficult to read about a graph showing current input against lumens.....

    This is really, really basic LED stuff.
    Allright bretti, so I'm a little slow

    No need to rub it in!!!

    You guys better quit picking on me!!
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    This is the one for the MC-E: http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLampMCE_BL.pdf

    It also shows approximately why the 5A is considered as being a reasonable warm-white tint.

    Bret

  21. #21

    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Apart from CREE Q5, anybody else produce 110 Lumens/Watt or better lumen per watt emitters in white, 130 Lumens/Watt? or more?

  22. #22
    *Flashaholic* Marduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelmuller View Post
    Apart from CREE Q5, anybody else produce 110 Lumens/Watt or better lumen per watt emitters in white, 130 Lumens/Watt? or more?
    Check the thread linked (several times) above

  23. #23

    Default Re: Help me learn about CREE emitters please

    It looks the links to the PDFs are not working anymore. Anyway, I found a page from Philips that may be very helpful for the newbies in LED terminology, like me:

    http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc_...ed-lamps6.html

    Cheers

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