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Thread: 17670 Batteries?

  1. #1

    Default 17670 Batteries?

    Hey guys I was talking to lumafist yesterday and he suggested I get some 17670 batteries for my SureFire G2 LED. Im getting a Malkoff M60 so I want some rechargeables.
    My question does just one of these go in the surefire to make it work or does it take two, just like the cr123's?
    Also will these fit in my G2 and is the best battery I can get to fit in this body or is there another one that would last longer?
    Thanks for your help,
    Chet

  2. #2
    *Flashaholic* Marduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    17670 is the size of two CR123's, but 3.7v nominal.

    For the M60, 2xRCR123 will give you the best performance. If you want to go the single Li-Ion route, I highly recommend the M30 instead. Same output, but it's geared specifically for 1xLi-Ion use.

  3. #3
    Flashaholic* LightWalker's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    I can use a 17670 in my Fenix TK10 on low for long runtimes.
    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. Jesus Christ - John 12:46

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    Flashaholic* DHart's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    The M60 runs great on a single 18650 or 17670. Nicely, it will drop out of regulation as it drops in voltage and give a nice looong runtime at diminishing brightness... no sudden power cuts like you get with two 16340's.

  5. #5

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Alright so I have two different opinions here.
    I dont know anything about this so please excuse my ignorance. But wouldnt marduke be correct in getting a longer runtime with two batteries instead of one?

  6. #6
    *Flashaholic* Marduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by realitycheck View Post
    Alright so I have two different opinions here.
    I dont know anything about this so please excuse my ignorance. But wouldnt marduke be correct in getting a longer runtime with two batteries instead of one?
    It depends on the module. The M60 on 1x17670 will fall out of regulation quicker, and have a long period of reducing brightness as the battery runs down.

    On 2xRCR123 (16340's), the M60 will run longer in regulation, but have little or no period of reduced brightness.

    If you run the M30 on 1x17670, it will better utilize the 1x17670 cell by running in regulation longer.

    1x17670 has more energy than 2xRCR123's.

  7. #7

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    The 17670 cell has more capacity (1600-1800mA) than a 16340 cell (750mA).
    That's what gives you the runtime not the voltage.
    Take care

  8. #8

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    And regulation is the time it stays in its maximum lumen output correct?
    Once it goes below the voltage dictated by the module it goes into direct drive and starts slowly diminishing?
    If I go with 16340's is that when you have a chance of the light all of a sudden just cutting off and you really have no warning of when it might do it?

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* Yoda4561's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    With 16340's you'll get around 45 minutes of full power runtime. With lithium ion batteries, running them below 3v can start to damage the cells, leading to reduced runtime and recharges. Using protected cells the protection circuit will suddenly cut the light off when they reach around 2.5v per cell. The M60 will still be at full power right before that cut, so you'll be left in the dark suddenly, this happens to all flashlights that are running in full regulation on a rechargable. 1 17670 will run close to or at full power for an unspecified amount of time, some have estimated around 30-40 minutes, then slowly dim over a few hours as the module goes to direct drive (below 3.8v), by the time the protection circuit kicks in the light will have dimmed to less than 1/10 it's normal output.

  10. #10
    Moderator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    To add to Yoda4561's post,

    M60 with a single AW _protected_ 17500 (it's the closest thing I had to the 17670, the behavior of which I am most interested in with regards to unregulated behavior in an M60):
    ~200 to ~140 lumens for hour one.
    ~140 to ~80 lumens for hour two.
    ~80 lumens to ~20 lumens for hour three.
    (lumen figures are unfortunately guestimates, based on my other various configurations in my integrating bathroom)
    After 4 hours, down to maybe 10 lumens and still the protection circuit hasn't triggered, so I got bored & turned off the light.

    Compare this to the _M30_ on a 17500, with a calculated runtime of 60 minutes @ 240 lumens (calculating off of a tested runtime of 1:20 min with a 17670).

    So whatever turns your crank, that's what makes this hobby so fun.
    In the past we have had a light which flickered, in the present we have a light which flames, and in the future there will be a light which shines over all the land and sea.
    - Winston Churchill

  11. #11

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    So basically it comes out to if you would rather have full light for a longer time and then poof your in the dark.
    Or not ever make full lumens and have a battery that would drain to almost no lumens before ever going out.
    Man thats a hard decision?
    Any other options for the m60 and G2 combo?

  12. #12
    Moderator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by realitycheck View Post
    Man thats a hard decision?
    I completely agree with you, such a small configuration change creating two completely different behaviors.
    Solution: Get both. If you really get into the Malkoff drop-ins you'll have a ball trying them in different configurations you put together. In the very unlikely event that you won't want to keep both, sell the config you don't want for 95% of your purchase price on the Marketplace.

    Either configuration stomps the stuffing out of a 2xRCR123 setup due to having considerably more watt-hours of stored energy in the larger single-cell. Plus purchasing a pair of the long cells gives you one backup, while you'd have to purchase four RCR123's and juggle them, possibly getting them mixed up in the dark when your protection circuit triggers.

    The same debate (M60 vs M30) is currently running in this thread, you might find that helpful:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=226590
    Also, there is a great thread on M60 and M30 runtimes here, it's pretty much the CPF bible for the two drop-ins:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=194879
    IMO darn near the best CPF thread ever, at least for my interests. Enjoy!
    Last edited by Kestrel; 03-31-2009 at 02:18 PM.
    In the past we have had a light which flickered, in the present we have a light which flames, and in the future there will be a light which shines over all the land and sea.
    - Winston Churchill

  13. #13
    Moderator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    You will get the most output (& heat) from the M30 (theoretically more heat than even a full-driven M60 - more current flow due to the lower voltage _plus_ heat coming from the boost circuit), but your host (plastic body / aluminum bezel) is marginal for getting that heat out. It should be ok from what I've read on CPF, but it is pushing it. I can't say more specifically, no real experience with this configuration - the other configurations I've tried, to avoid any potential heat issue on this. YMMV.
    Last edited by Kestrel; 03-31-2009 at 02:29 PM.
    In the past we have had a light which flickered, in the present we have a light which flames, and in the future there will be a light which shines over all the land and sea.
    - Winston Churchill

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by realitycheck View Post
    Hey guys I was talking to lumafist yesterday and he suggested I get some 17670 batteries for my SureFire G2 LED. Im getting a Malkoff M60 so I want some rechargeables.
    My question does just one of these go in the surefire to make it work or does it take two, just like the cr123's?
    Also will these fit in my G2 and is the best battery I can get to fit in this body or is there another one that would last longer?
    Thanks for your help,
    Chet
    Go with the Malkoff M30 + SureFire 6P + AW 17670.

    Do not use the G2 or any other host made of Polymer/plastic with high-powered LED modules.

  15. #15
    Flashaholic* DHart's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Just did a quick output test (bathroom ceiling bounce) between the M60 and the M30 driven in a 6P host by a fresh off the charger AW protected 18650. Measured in EV, at 29" distance from ceiling, converted to Lux. With the relatively short 29" measurement distance, a measurement difference of .1 EV is totally insignificant.

    To the eye the difference in output is hardly if even noticible. To a light meter, there is a measureable difference, however.

    Body=======Bezel===Lamp=======Power======EV===Lux
    Fivemega 6P===6P=====M30=====AW 18650=====5.3===104.0
    Fivemega 6P===6P=====M60=====AW 18650=====5.0===80.0
    Fivemega 6P===6P=====R2 3.7v===AW 18650=====5.0===80.0

    The R2 is a Solarforce R2-M 3.7v 5-mode lamp module tested on high (about $18 from solarforcestore.com).

    So from a practical standpoint, the M60 (due to power versatility & long run time) is arguably the better choice. But as Kestrel said above, just get both and enjoy the fun!
    Last edited by DHart; 03-31-2009 at 04:22 PM.

  16. #16
    Moderator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    Just did a quick output test (bathroom ceiling bounce) between the M60 and the M30 driven in a 6P host by a fresh off the charger AW protected 18650.
    The above test by DHart proves my point, which is: Yes, you too could be having as much fun as he is: swapping around hosts & emitters!
    Last edited by Kestrel; 03-31-2009 at 03:20 PM.
    In the past we have had a light which flickered, in the present we have a light which flames, and in the future there will be a light which shines over all the land and sea.
    - Winston Churchill

  17. #17
    Flashaholic* DHart's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Here are my test results with an AW protected 16340, hot-off-the-charger. Measured in EV, at 29" distance from bathroom ceiling, converted to Lux. With the relatively short 29" measurement distance, a measurement difference of .1 EV is totally insignificant.

    Body===== Bezel==Lamp========Power====EV======Lux
    Fivemega 3P==6P===M30========AW16340===5.3====104.0
    Fivemega 3P==6P===M60========AW16340===5.1=====88.0
    Fivemega 3P==6P===SolFor R2 3.7v==AW16340===4.9=====76.0

    The R2 is a Solarforce R2-M 3.7v 5-mode drop-in lamp module tested on high (about $18 from solarforcestore.com). This is an excellent option if keeping costs down is important.

    Again, though the results have measureable differences, to the eye there is little, if any, noticible/useable difference in output.

    =======

    Just to put things into perspective, here are some of my comparative measurements, same test set-up:

    Body===========Lamp========Power====EV======Lux
    Romisen RC-N3=====Q5========AW16340===4.5=====60.0
    Surefire E1B================CR123=====4.3=====52.0
    Surefire L1=================CR123=====3.9=====38.0

    =======

    Now, I've got to stay out of the bathroom and get some of my real work done!
    Last edited by DHart; 03-31-2009 at 04:36 PM.

  18. #18
    Moderator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by DHart View Post
    Body===== Bezel==Lamp========Power====EV======Lux
    Fivemega 3P==6P===M30========AW16340===5.3====104.0
    Fivemega 3P==6P===M60========AW16340===5.1=====88.0
    Fivemega 3P==6P===SolFor R2 3.7v==AW16340===4.9=====76.0
    Hey, I see you're working on formatting your charts, they might be prettier like this?
    (assuming the standard color scheme display)
    Body________Bezel_Lamp.________Power______EV_____Lux
    Fivemega 3P__6P___M30._________AW16340___5.3____104.0
    Fivemega 3P__6P___M60._________AW16340___5.1_____88.0
    Fivemega 3P__6P___SolFor R2 3.7v_AW16340___4.9_____76.0

    Definitely more work though, formatting charts via text is difficult here...
    Last edited by Kestrel; 03-31-2009 at 04:46 PM.
    In the past we have had a light which flickered, in the present we have a light which flames, and in the future there will be a light which shines over all the land and sea.
    - Winston Churchill

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* DHart's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    Definitely more work though, formatting charts via text is difficult here...
    No kidding! I had hoped I could just paste in a chunk from my spreadsheet, but noooooooo! Yes, your formatting looks MUCH better than my quickie ad-hoc job!

  20. #20

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marduke View Post
    It depends on the module. The M60 on 1x17670 will fall out of regulation quicker, and have a long period of reducing brightness as the battery runs down.

    On 2xRCR123 (16340's), the M60 will run longer in regulation, but have little or no period of reduced brightness.

    If you run the M30 on 1x17670, it will better utilize the 1x17670 cell by running in regulation longer.

    1x17670 has more energy than 2xRCR123's.
    Well if the 17670 runs at 3.7 volts and the M60 goes out of regulation below 3.8 volts. It would never be in regulation right?
    From the getgo it would always be running below the 235 lumens, right?

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* DHart's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    A "3.7v" nominal Li-Ion is 4.2v right off the charger. Mine spend most of their lives between 4.2v - 3.8v, in my usage pattern. You get a longer useful life from Li-Ions if you top them off regularly rather than run them down to cut-off or (even worse) dead, especially on a regular basis.

    If a long runtime is necessary, by all means, drive the M60 with a single 18650 and run it down until it dims significantly or is shut down by the PC. But no need nor benefit from doing that as a matter of course.

    That's the nice thing with the M60... it's really versatile! You can drive it with 1 to 3 primaries, 2 rechargeables, or a single rechargeable (16340, 17500, 18500, 17670, 18650) and get good output from all. And you can get especially long runtimes with a single 18650. With the M30, you get an imperceptibly brighter output when compared to the M60 in single cell mode, but for a much shorter runtime. And you lose the ability to use more than a single cell. Both the M60 and the M30 are great lamp modules, but the M60 gives you a lot more options.
    Last edited by DHart; 03-31-2009 at 06:31 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Alright guys I have another problem here. Please tell me what im missing here. I'm looking at these two batteries right here. I have the 17670 at 1800mah, and I have the rcr123 at 900mah x2=1800mah. The 17670 is only 3.7 volts, but the rcr123 would be 6 volts, the 17670 protection is 2.75 volts and the rcr123 is 2.5 volts. Wouldn't the RCR123 hold the light in regulation for longer and also have a longer drop off time in direct drive??
    Thats the way the numbers seem to me but im new so im sure im confused?
    Link to two batteries,
    http://www.batteryjunction.com/protected-17670.html
    http://www.batteryjunction.com/rc390reliba.html
    Last edited by realitycheck; 03-31-2009 at 06:19 PM.

  23. #23
    Flashaholic* DHart's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Remember that Li-Ions are about 4.2v when fully charged.

    Voltage is additive (3v cell + 3v cell in series = 6v) but capacity (I believe) is not additive in series, but perhaps in parallel? Someone correct me if I'm wrong here... battery science can get complicated very quickly when you consider voltage, current, capacity, forward voltage, chemistry, series, parallel, etc. (And I'm no expert by any means here.) (Of course, parallel is not applicable to this situation.)

    Here's some good info:

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=217683
    Last edited by DHart; 03-31-2009 at 06:47 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Oh yeah your right. I knew something wasn't right.
    So I think either way the 17670 is going to be my best bet.
    Thanks for pointing out coming off the charger it is 4.2 volts.

  25. #25
    Moderator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    An RCR123 which claims to be 900 mAh is horribly inflated, it's probably ~600 or so, especially at the relatively high drain rates that we are asking of it. The best way to look at stored energy is watt-hours, and a single 17670 has something like ~50% more watt-hours than two rcr123's.

    Regarding voltage levels:
    CR123: 3.0v nominal -> 2.5v under load
    RCR123, 17670, etc: 4.2v nominal -> 3.7v under load.

    Also, 17670's are just basically awesome.
    In the past we have had a light which flickered, in the present we have a light which flames, and in the future there will be a light which shines over all the land and sea.
    - Winston Churchill

  26. #26

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    hehehe, Kestral you guys have convinced me. I'm going to roll with the 17670 and the ultrafire charger.
    Thanks so much for helping a newb out guys.

  27. #27
    Moderator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by realitycheck View Post
    hehehe, Kestral you guys have convinced me. I'm going to roll with the 17670 and the ultrafire charger.
    Thanks so much for helping a newb out guys.
    Are you sure you want the ultrafire charger? Pila IBC's are the way to go IMO, ~$50 but well worth the extra money. My two lumens.

    edit: Earlier today I gave a quick scan to CPF/Marketplace - Batteries / electronics to check an idea. I saw NINE cheapo 3.7v chargers in various states of selling or being withdrawn on the first page alone. I don't even recall when I last saw a Pila IBC for sale, even though they are extremely popular on CPF. That should tell you something right there. :-) Why is everyone selling their cheapo 3.7v chargers, but nobody is selling their Pila IBC's? :-)

    (FYI, I gather that there are better chargers than the Pila IBC, but the Pila is relatively inexpensive, a simple one to use, and shouldn't get you into trouble, from what I've read)
    Last edited by Kestrel; 03-31-2009 at 09:21 PM.
    In the past we have had a light which flickered, in the present we have a light which flames, and in the future there will be a light which shines over all the land and sea.
    - Winston Churchill

  28. #28

    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Well I've heard good and bad now that im reading stuff.
    I dont want to burn my house down over a few bucks thats for sure. I didnt know if the Pila IBC charged 17670's or not?

  29. #29
    Moderator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by realitycheck View Post
    Well I've heard good and bad now that im reading stuff.
    I dont want to burn my house down over a few bucks thats for sure. I didnt know if the Pila IBC charged 17670's or not?
    With various spacers (included and improvised) you can charge pretty much any 3.7v cell reliably with the Pila (except for the really tiny ones like 10180 or whatever).

    Think about it this way: Any ____fire besides SureFire is sure to you give you a fire, eventually.
    (I'm only kidding here ..... for the most part. There's a thread around here somewhere where a guy lost half his garage in a charging incident, and that hasn't been the only one.)
    In the past we have had a light which flickered, in the present we have a light which flames, and in the future there will be a light which shines over all the land and sea.
    - Winston Churchill

  30. #30
    Flashaholic* DHart's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17670 Batteries?

    The most important thing to attend to for safe charging, with ANY charger, is make SURE you don't leave cells charging unattended. Don't put them on the charger if there's a chance you might forget about them or leave the house for any prolonged period of time. Be there to pull them off the charger... ANY charger, when the light indicates done. And is doesn't hurt to put the charger on a metal tray in the event of an, event! The Pila charger is well respected and a good choice. But many of us use the WF-139 with excellent results as well. Just remember the safety procedures and you'll be fine.
    Last edited by DHart; 03-31-2009 at 10:38 PM.

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