Hey Audio dudes....

Saaby

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I've been inducted into my friends band as their Audio tech. We've got quite the setup (Including a prestine vintage TASCAM 246....what more could you ask for?)

Anyhew we were messing around today laying down some tracks but we don't really have a way to record the drums. I'm thinking we should pick up a used Radio Shack PZM and figure out a way to use that to record the drums. PZM or not I'd like to record the drums using a 1 Mic setup.

Budget is about $50. Anybody got an old PZM they wanna sell me?
 

Wick

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A PZM really works best in a fairly tight eclosed space. I have had great success with using them in grand pianos. However, using them to try and mic an entire kit, you are going to end up with a lot of spill from other sources unless you are using an isolation booth. You might honestly be better using a good condenser with a fairly tight patern as an overhead. You'll get a lot of cymbol in it, but a good condensor will do well with the rest of the kit (sans the kick) as well.
 

Tree

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If you want a good drum sound you'll need at least a condenser overhead, and a decent kik drum mic. See if any local sound rental companies can rent you a couple mics for a day. They could recommend the best choice from what they have.
 

Tree

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I'm guessing if you are laying down tracks that you have some other kind of mics. You'll be surprised what you can get mics to sound like in a pinch. Experiment with different mics in different places around the drums and see what you get.

The PZM makes an OK kik drum mic, but for the entire kit I'm not sure it will work like you want it to.

If you have to use just one mic, then get the best condenser you can and play around with placement so you pickup most of the kit evenly. (most likely over the kit behind the drummers head)
 

Saaby

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We've got 2 Dynamic Electrovice mics (Same vintage as the Tascam) and then a super el-cheapo black dynamic mic. The guitars are going through their respective amps (I don't ask why so you shouldn't either) and then into mixer using LINE level output on the Amps. Today we used one of the Electrovoice mics to pic up the drums and it worked ok but not great. Then again once I started looking into it I found we'd positioned it presicely where nobody positions it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I'll probably just get on eBay and buy the best thing I can afford. This won't be much but that's just how it has to be this time around /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 

Saaby

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Nady SCM 900? Yes? No? Personal experiences? It's a large diaphram condensor...
 

Wick

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I dont have any experience with that particualr mic, or nady in general. I think you are on the right track though. A large diaphram condensor, for your particular situation, is probably best. Just remember, you are going to need phantom power from your console in order for that mic to work. Not sure if that console has a +48 output on its balanced conections.

Just some other small notes. First, I know all this requires money and that can be hard to come by. Buy DI boxes for those line level signals. If you have a decent recording deck you will notice the difference a balanced line will make. If you cant afford a few DI boxes, make the length from the guitar amp to your console as short as posible.

On the topic of mics. If you can scratch some cash together, buy some Shure SM-57s. In my experience it is the one do-it-all (almost) mic. Vocals, guitar cabinets, drum kits (dont think i would want to use it on kick), and almost anything else, the SM-57 is a rock solid mic.

If you do already have a PZM, you can use it in the kick. It easier to use if the kick has a cutout. Stuff a pillow in there and then play with the PZM position. You may not get TONS of low end but you really can get some decent attack out of one.

Good luck,
-Wick
 

Wick

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The 57 and 58 and electronically very similar. The biggest difference is the windscreen. The SM-58 is the classic round wind screen. The SM-57 looks like a 58 with no windscreen. I think, IMO, that the 57 stands up to abuse much better.

Some people claim that it the 57 is not a good vocal mic. Next time you see a press confrence with the President, take a look at the mic on the podium. It will be a SM-57.

Edited to add: the SM-58 is a fantastic mic. I just think it really suits itself more to vocals and vocals only. The SM-57 is just a much more versitile mic.
 

NeonLights

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[ QUOTE ]
iddibhai said:
i thought it was the SM58... at least that's what we have lots of.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I've seen and heard working with the SM57 and SM58 for a few years now, the SM58 is a great (for the price) mic for vocals, and an ok mic for instruments, while the SM57 is a great all-around mic, and a little better for instruments, but not quite as good for vocals as the SM58.

When I was still running sound and buying equipment for our small church, they already had two older SM57's, and they are so versatile, I ended up getting two more, and they have performed very well in various capacities.

-Keith
 

Wick

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Echoing what Neonlights said, the Sm-58 is a fantastic vocal mic. There are a lot of very expensive live vocal mics on the market, yet you continue to see the SM-58 everywhere. You really cant go wrong with it.

The SM-58 Beta and SM-87A Beta are a bit better but a lot more expensive. The nice feature of the these two betas is their pickup pattern. A super-cardiod really reduces side spill and allows you to use two floor wedges with each mic.
 

Saaby

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I had detailed my whole setup but then changed the message.


Yesterday they (The 3 musicians) ventured out to guitar center and ended up with a 8 channel Behringer mixer. It'll take 4 XLR and then 2 stereo line inputs. Unfortunately right now all the mic connections are unbalanced, but after we get this mic the next step is better cabling.

The recordings yesterday didn't sound all that bad...they could just sound better. I'll put up a little sample after I mix down into a computer and all that good stuff.
 

iddibhai

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makes sense, most of the use our SM58s get are for vocals; two or so cond. for visiting bands to mike the cymbals (?), and one pretty short mike to stick inside the big kick drum.
 

James S

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Saaby, I worked for 3 months in a Guitar Center in Chicago. Working retail is miserable, minimum wage plus commission means minimum wage /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I spent more money there on my employee discount than I made!

When setting up mics for drums I've done mostly what has already been talked about here. 2 mics up high for cymbals and a separate one for the kick. If you're not getting enough snare and toms from the above mics you can either move them a little further away or try to put them inbetween the snare and the cymbals. Thats harder though.

The further you move the mics from the drums the more room ambiance and crosstalk from other instruments you'll pick up. But if you're limited in your mixed and mic collection then I think it's better to use the room ambiance than to try to add some later with a cheap reverb unit or something like that.

I hope the drummer is decent and has his heads tuned up and such /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
D

**DONOTDELETE**

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hey Saaby,

I sent your post to my music producer buddy, and he wrote back:

"If he cares about stereo, I have successfully employed a pair of
overhead mics (left and right) placed high enough and inboard enough to be able to balance the various standard elements (high hat, ride, crash, tom-toms and snare) and a mike exculsively for the kick drum. I have found this mix of mics to afford a righteous combination of clarity, presence, ambiance and flexibility in the final mix stage.
If stereo is of no interest, a single overhead mic (center) at the same height can substitute for the pair of overheads. But I have found NO substitute for a separate kick drum mic. On the issue of what mics; especially in the range defined by the $50 budget, I can only say that much experimentation will be necessary with whatever mics can be made available: always the best approach in any event.
Only a drummer with the capacity to precisely modulate the force with which the elements of the kit are struck can be satisfactorily recorded with this 2 or 3 mic set up."
Hope this helps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

Saaby

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I'll look into geting 2 SM-57s but if not i'll stick with a large diaphram condensor.
 

jtivat

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See if you can rent these
1 - Beta 52 for your kick
2 - 57s for snare top and bottom
3 - Beta 98s for toms
3 - SM 81s for your tops
You could also use 57s instead of the 98s but you should be able to get this package for a $50 rental. Also remember this is ideal you could get by with less.
 

Saaby

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OK here's the plan.


Band is 3 member. Drummer, Bass, Guitar. Bass player does lead vocals and then there are a few (but not many) from the Guitar player and Drummer. I'm thinking I'll go ahead and get large capsule condensor and record drums mono for now (I prefer to think of it as Panned center /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ). Drummer wants to get one of them headset mics for himself, so when he does we'll take the condensor mic and give it to lead vocal, take the 2 matching Electrovoice mics and record the drums with them somehow (and maybe by then I can afford a cheap PZM).

Anybody got a better idea? There are several reasons I'd prefer not to rent which I won't bore you with here. Not to say renting is bad, it's just not the best option this time around.
 

Tree

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I assume you are tracking and bouncing to get the most out of the Tascam recorder.

For example putting drums on track 1, guitar on track 2, and bass on track 3, then mixing them down and recording them to track 4. That leaves you with tracks 1-3 open to overdub vocals, solos, and whatever else.

Two Sm-57s could be used in a pinch for the kit. One would be overhead with the highs boosted on the Berhinger mixer a little bit. The other used in the kik drum (experiment with positioning, like putting it inside of the kik drum pointing it where the beater strikes the head about 8 inches away) see what that sounds like. Then try putting it just inside the hole in the outer head and see what that gives you.

You might have to make a few test drum recordings to see what different mic placements and EQing gives you.

You can also utilize the EV mics you have. Do a test recording with a SM-57 on overhead and kik on one track, and an EV mic on overhead and kik on another track. Then you can A/B the tracks to see what gives you a better sound. You can then use the better mics in each position. Also, you can try using both the 57 and EV in the Kik at the same time to see if they compliment each other (one might have more bass response, the other might have better mids and highs) and play around with the EQ on the Berhinger mixer by boosting the highs and mids of one mic and boosting the lows of the other, just make sure they aren't out of phase with each other. Also, since you can do 4 mic channels with the Berhinger mixer, you could use the two 57's as overheads covering half the kit each and then an EV mic in the kik.

The key here is experiment as much as you can. This will give you a better chance at good recordings and you will gain experience to boot.

There are many other aspects of a good recording, such as setting the proper input levels and getting a hot signal to the tape, making sure the heads of the recorder are clean and properly degaussed. But, as far as the mics go if you can't get a condenser I think the 57's would at least get a clean sound to tape.
 

Saaby

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The (Pro?) Audio thread

So I've been doing a lot of music-specific sound research lately so tonight for the school's spring band concert I had the brilliant idea of taping one of the Crown PCCs to the piano instead of going the usual throw a mic under the lid routine....who said a PZM would make a terrible kit mic? The PCC picked up the Piano beautifully! Unfortunately it also picked up the drums...the audience...the guitar player seated next to the piano...it's ok though because there's another concert Thursday (Choral) and I still intend to use the PCC, but I'm going to relocate it.


I've done live sound for a couple of years now and have about got that down (I'm not a pro but you find a Sophomore that can do it better then I can...[/big head]) but I'm pretty new to this recording stuff. I'm convinced now that our day of recording Monday, while not a total loss, was done all wrong. I mixed everything with the Behringer and then sent it into the Tascam on 2 channels.

We've got a lot of messing around to do (This is the main reason I'm against renting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) but I think next time we record I'll run the vocals in the Behringer and mix the instruments in the Tascam.

Quick question--how concerned do I need to be about peaking? When I adjusted the levels so I didn't peak at all the level to tape wasn't all that hot at all...a hotter signal (About -5 to -3) resulted in peaking. Not constant peaking, mind you, but enough to concern me without having experts to consult.
 
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