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Thread: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

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    Default SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    [Continued from Part 1...]

    At long last, I have managed to get around to doing a series of shots of some of the various possible M6 rechargeable options. I have been planning to do this for a while, but something always seemed to get in the way.

    Just getting all the gear together took some time.






    Bulb options

    The bulbs/LAs can be split into 2 groups: those that work with two Li-Ion cells in series (2s) and those that work with three Li-Ion cells in series (3s).

    2s Li-Ions:
    MN15
    MN16
    MN20
    MN21
    Osram 64250
    WA 1111
    Philips 5761

    3s Li-Ions:
    MN61
    HO-M6R
    WA 1185

    The MNxx bulbs:




    The 64250, 1111, 1185 and 5761 bulbs require a Fivemega MN bi-pin socket for the M6.
    3 bi-pin bulbs in FM holders are shown here, together with the Lumens Factory HO-M6R:



    Below is a closer look at the bi-pin bulbs. The physical size of the glass envelope is important, as it determines whether or not the bulbs will actually fit through the reflector hole in the KT4 turbohead. The WA bulbs are small and compact, whereas the Philips and Osram bulbs are much larger. My 5761 did fit OK, but the Osram 64250 did not fit, so it could not be tested (I tried 3 of them, but they were all the same). With 5761 bulbs, there have been reports of variations in bulb sizes between one batch and another, so some may fit and some may not. The same may be true for 64250s.


    Those filaments are interesting too. If you compare the WA1111 and WA1185, you can immediately tell which is the higher-voltage 1185 – the filament coil is longer. The 64250 and 1111 filaments are almost exactly the same size and configuration, indicating very similar performance. The 5761 filament is a larger-diameter coil of thicker-gauge wire, and you can tell just by looking at it that it is going to absorb a lot more current than the others.


    Battery options

    The stock battery configuration for the M6 is 3s2p (3 series, 2 parallel) CR123A primary cells in the MB20 holder.
    Rechargeable battery options available are as follows:

    2s Li-Ion cell packs:
    2s 18650 (mdocod’s 2x18650 holder)
    2s2p 14670 (Fivemega black (7.4V) 4x14670 holder + plastic insulator cap needed)
    2s ‘C’ Li-Ions (with Fivemega 2C extender)

    2s2p 14670 and 2s 18650 should in theory perform identically, having the same capacity, although the 2s 18650 will be a cheaper and better option. 2s ‘C’ gives increased capacity. However there is the disadvantage of the 2C extender lengthening the light by ~17 mm. The 5761 (and the MN21 Li-Ion option) should be used only with 2x ‘C’, as the current draw at ~5A is too much for 2s 18650 except in short bursts.

    However, the increased discharge loads possible with Lithium Manganese (Emoli) cells, available in 18650 size, present a workable solution for M6 owners who want to use the 5761 and are not worried about short run-times.

    3s Li-Ion cell packs:
    3s2p RCR123 (in the SF stock MB20 holder)
    3s 17670 (Fivemega 3x17670 holder)

    The 3s 17670 set-up will out-perform the 3s2p RCR123s.

    Here are the battery packs:



    Please note in the above pic: there is a home-made plastic cap (made by me) that fits over the +ve end of the 4x14670 holder. This is needed to prevent the +ve terminal shorting on the M6 body. It can be seen that the 3x17670 holder already has an insulating disc fitted.

    The Fivemega 2C extender comes with a plastic sleeve to take the 2x ‘C’ Li-Ion cells, pictured above. Here is a photo of an M6 body fitted with the Fivemega 2C extender, next to a stock M6 body:




    One problem with comparison shots is trying to make sure the lights are all pointing at exactly the same spot in each successive photo. I decided I needed a solid cradle, similar in concept to a shooter’s bench-rest, to hold the lights.

    Mrs DM51 very kindly made an involuntary donation of a redundant chopping board for this purpose. When I realised the tremendous scientific (non-culinary) potential of this chopping board, I pointed out to her at some length that it had lethally unhygienic cracks in it, suggesting that from now on she should instead use one of her other boards, as they looked very much less conducive to salmonella, botulism, or other alarming and gruesome gastro-intestinal afflictions. Anyway, she has not said anything so far about the board going missing, and with a bit of luck she won’t notice.

    I glued a 45ฐ wedge to it, and a right-angle join from a box to that, to act as a channel to lay the lights in. This is the result:



    Anchored firmly in place, it ensures each light points at the same spot.


    Location

    Adamlau did an excellent series of shots in an urban setting, so I chose a rural one.




    The target here is the large integrating tree on the right in the main photo. As marked on the photo, it is 135 yards (400 feet) from the “firing point”. That is a good distance away, and it takes a powerful light to throw that far to any useful effect.




    BEAMSHOTS

    First, here are pics of the MNxx bulbs that were tested. These are small versions of the photos, for ease of comparison side by side. Larger copies (600 x 460 pixels) can be found in post #2 – they may be useful for making “gif” rotating shots.

    On the left in each case the bulb is running on primaries, and on the right you see the same bulb running on Li-Ions.

    MN15


    MN20


    MN16


    MN61


    MN21



    In each case above, the primaries were 3s2p in the stock MB20 holder, with the exception of the MN61, which was running on 4s in a 2x18650-size Leef body. The rechargeable configurations were as shown.

    Note that the MN16 seems brighter than the MN61 – this should not be the case. It is mostly because the MN16 is designed to run of 3 primaries, not 3s2p. With 2 banks of CR123As, there is far less voltage sag, so the MN16 is being overdriven. I also have to confess that the 4 cells used for the shot of the MN61 may not have been quite as fresh as the ones in the M6 bodies. That MN61 on primaries is the 1 shot in this series which is possibly suspect. All I can say is that it looked pretty bright; but the MN16 was brighter. See how the MN61 performed on Li-Ions, though!

    Now it gets more interesting, as we add in some other bulbs. Time to settle a few scores!
    Here are a few pairs that make interesting comparisons:

    HO-M6R vs. MN20 (primaries)



    HO-M6R vs. MN16 (2x 18650)



    HO-M6R vs. MN21 (primaries)



    MN21 (primaries) vs. WA 1111



    MN21 (primaries) vs. MN61 (3x Li-Ions)



    MN21 (2x ‘C’ Li-Ions) vs. 5761 (2x ‘C’ Li-Ions)



    WA 1111 vs. WA 1185



    5761 vs. WA 1185



    Before finishing with the beamshots, I would stress again that the target is a very large tree, about 80 feet high, and it is a fair distance away – 135 yards, or 400 feet! All the photos above are with the camera on ~2x zoom. Just to illustrate this, here is what the WA 1185 beam actually looked like without the zoom:




    Comments

    You may already have formed your own conclusions from the photos above. Below are some of my thoughts.

    The first thing that must be realised is that the high-output (HOLA) Surefire MN-series bulbs used with Li-Ion batteries will suffer a reduced life.

    As you can see from the comparison shots above of the MN16, MN61 and MN21, they are much brighter when running on Li-Ions than they are on primaries.

    This is nice, but unfortunately it comes at a cost, which is a shorter bulb life. The greater the increase in brightness, the more drastic the effect on bulb life. The MN15 and MN20 will probably do OK as they aren’t driven so hard, but those 3 HOLAs are not going to last very long at all. The cost of running your M6R on Li-Ions with Surefire HOLAs at around $30 a pop may end up being as expensive as feeding it with primaries. Sorry guys, but there’s no way round that one.

    The lifetime of bi-pin bulbs is better documented. When over-driven, as here, these bulbs will have a lifespan in the region of ~10 hours, but they are a lot cheaper - $9 for a WA1111, and only $5 for a WA1185. And a mere $3 for a 64250 - if you can find one that fits!

    Star ratings given below for practicality are awarded for various reasons, the principal one being anticipated bulb life.


    Bulb performance and ratings

    The MN15 confirmed its value and utility. It draws an economical 1.15 amps. I have been using it quite a lot, but until now I had not done a comparison at distance, and it is at distance that quality shows up. You only have to look at the photos above to see how well it performed. As can be seen here, and contrary to reports made elsewhere, it works well on 2x Li-Ions. Either way, with primaries or rechargeables, the MN15 is a very good option for anyone requiring a working light with long run-time. It only gets 1 star here for output, but that tree is a long way off, and the standard in this shootout is very high indeed. There can be no doubt that this is an extremely useful bulb.
    Output…………..
    Run-time………..
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    The MN20 is a fine all-round bulb, drawing 2.45 amps. It is a good general purpose bulb for the M6 for both primaries and Li-Ions. With this bulb, you have enough light for almost all uses.
    Output…………..
    Run-time…….….
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    The MN16 gives a startlingly better performance than the MN20, beating it on output. It draws 2.6 amps, so it can be expected to be brighter, and it is. However, it is clearly over-driven on 2x Li-Ions, and its life will suffer severely.
    Output…………..
    Run-time………..
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    The MN21 is an amazing bulb, but unless you have an endless supply of CR123A primaries, it really isn’t very practical. It draws 4.9 amps. People probably fire it up from time to time to amaze their friends, but even for that purpose there are more impressive options. Using it with the FM extension and 2x ‘C’ Li-Ions was spectacular. However this is over-driving it hard, and bulb life is likely to be very short. From cold, I found it required double or triple-clicking to start it. For all these reasons I do not consider it a practical option.
    Output…………..
    Run-time………..
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    The Philips 5761, like the MN21, is a high-current bulb, drawing 5.4 amps. It needs the FM 2C extension, as it should not be used with smaller Li-Ion cells than ‘C’ size. There are reports of some batches of 5761s being too large to fit through the KT4 reflector hole; certainly, it is a close fit. The filament sits up higher than the WA lamps, so ~1mm of shims are required on the base of the bi-pin holder. As if all that wasn’t enough, it needs several clicks to start. Unless you intend to use LiMn (Emoli) cells in a 2x18650 holder and you don’t mind extremely short run-times, it is not worth considering this bulb for the M6 (in my opinion, anyway).
    Output…………..
    Run-time………..
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    The MN61 is dazzling. On 3x Li-Ions it outperforms the MN21 on primaries. However, it is seriously over-driven in this configuration (3 amps measured) and there have been several reports of it instaflashing. Even where this does not happen, bulb life is going to be short and consequently expensive. Sadly, it does not seem to be a very realistic or reliable option. On output it is really 4ฝ stars, above 4 but not up to 5.
    Output…………..
    Run-time………..
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    The WA 1111 is a great bulb. With 2x Li-Ions I measured it drawing 3.6 amps. Its output is very similar to the MN21 on primaries, as I have shown in another thread, and it uses less (and free) power. It is a very good option indeed, with useful run-time on 2x18650. It is no surprise how good this is. It is a very fine combination for the M6.
    Output…………..
    Run-time….…….
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    Some people are lucky enough to have an Osram 64250 that will fit into a KT4; however mine did not. I would expect it to perform almost identically to the WA 1111 (cheaper, too – it is $3 instead of $9). If you are really skilled at grinding glass down with a dremel, you might be able to shave the sides of these bulbs down just enough to fit, and then you will be in business!


    The Lumens Factory HO-M6R was the best surprise of this shootout. It draws 2.1 amps from 3x Li-Ions – that is Lumens Factory’s own figure, and it proved accurate on measurement. This means it can be used safely with 3s2p RCR123 Li-Ions in the stock MB20 holder; however it will perform better with 3x17670s. The HO-M6R has always been described as being “somewhere between the MN20 and MN21 in output”. Well, we can now officially scratch that description as inadequate. It stomped the MN20, and it gave the MN21 a very good run for its money. It was a far closer thing than I thought it would be. It has a tighter beam, and I think it actually out-throws the MN21. Throw is a feature of Lumens Factory bulbs, and this is a superb thrower. I knew it was good, but it took this comparison to show just how good it really is.
    Output…………..
    Run-time………..
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    Finally, as expected, and as can be seen from the photos, the WA 1185 with 3x17670 was the winner in the power contest. Drawing 3.3 amps, it matches the 5761 for output, and is a much more practical alternative if sheer power is what you want.
    Output…………..
    Run-time………..
    Practicality…….
    Overall…………...


    I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.
    Last edited by DM51; 05-05-2009 at 05:11 AM. Reason: Add link from Part 1
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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    This is the new Part 2. The original post (above) is copied from Part 1, and is now showing its age, as there have been quite a few new developments and products announced that are not covered there.

    They've been mentioned in other posts in Part 1, so at some stage when I have time, I'll edit this post to summarise them.
    Resistance is futile...

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    This IS the Bible of M6.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    The first thread was great, but now there's even more stuff, which can only make it better!

    LOL @ "integrating tree". Wish I had a good one... they're all too close, and give false readings!

    Most any place around here where you can get some good distance, will also probably result in the police getting called. This is especially since the two best locations are behind my old high school, and the other, right next to a police station!... lol. Guess they wouldn't even need to be called in that circumstance.
    I'm an excellent driver. Of course I don't have my underwear... I'm definitely not wearing my underwear

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    I just ordered an IMR-M6 1000 lumen bulb and three AW 17670 cells, but I am being told that I need to use AW IMR cells only to run this bulb. Being that AW doesn’t offer an IMR version of the 17670 I went with what’s available.

    What is the difference between an IMR AW cell and a regular AW cell?

    Will it really make a difference on the maximum possible output of the M6 1000 bulb?

    Would the performance of my HO-M6R using a 3S AW17670 configuration be the same as using a 3s2p AWRCR123A in my stock MB20 holder?

    What are the main drivers for using a 3s2p setup?

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    IMR cells can handle up to 4.5amps. The AW cells can handle less current. I had MrGman test my Surefire M6 with 3 AW 17670 cells that were almost fully charged and it did 850ish out the front lumens. I will ask MrGman to test it again with topped off cells, but my guess is that if the battery can't handle the high current effectively the voltage will sag and my numbers will remain low. I was expecting around 1000 lumens out the front.

    I will update when he re-tests it for me.

    Thanks,
    Jose

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanomiser View Post
    I just ordered an IMR-M6 1000 lumen bulb and three AW 17670 cells, but I am being told that I need to use AW IMR cells only to run this bulb. Being that AW doesn’t offer an IMR version of the 17670 I went with what’s available.

    What is the difference between an IMR AW cell and a regular AW cell?

    Will it really make a difference on the maximum possible output of the M6 1000 bulb?

    Would the performance of my HO-M6R using a 3S AW17670 configuration be the same as using a 3s2p AWRCR123A in my stock MB20 holder?

    What are the main drivers for using a 3s2p setup?
    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    remember, that with incans, only a small voltage drop is required to have a big drop in output. LEDs are less sensitive for this.

    With only 5%(!) drop in voltage, you'll have a drop in output of about 18%
    With a 10% drop in voltage, you'll suffer a drop in output of more than 30%!!

    I have a booklet from the Swiss switch-manufacturer EAO on incan bulbs, LEDs, multi-LEDs and so on, in which a marvelous graph is printed.


    Timmo.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    This thread is responsible for me moving the M6 from the "someday" category of lights I wanted to the "I need one NOW" category. One SureFire M6, FM bipin adapter, 3x17670 holder, and 1185 later, and I am very happy.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    I hear ya Snow, I hear ya.

    Now I'm in the wait for your parts to come in holding pattern.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow View Post
    This thread is responsible for me moving the M6 from the "someday" category of lights I wanted to the "I need one NOW" category. One SureFire M6, FM bipin adapter, 3x17670 holder, and 1185 later, and I am very happy.
    That is a very nice and potent setup. Now all you need is AW's softstart switch to give you 3 levels of brightness. The M6 has certainly become one of the most versatile lights around.

    The use of rechargeables has certainly breathed new life back into this platform.

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    Question Runtime question

    Quote Originally Posted by jslappa View Post
    That is a very nice and potent setup. Now all you need is AW's softstart switch to give you 3 levels of brightness. The M6 has certainly become one of the most versatile lights around.

    The use of rechargeables has certainly breathed new life back into this platform.
    That is the setup I'm using, also.

    What sort of runtimes should we see with the lower levels this switch offers.

    I did run it for about 35 minutes last night on low, but forgot to check the voltages before I put the batteries on the charger.

    Thanks,
    Tim

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    Exclamation Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    a (semi)related question to my above post:

    Are there any low-cost bi-pin bulbs that will work with this set up to approximate JS's X-LOLA?

    Thanks,
    Tim

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim W View Post
    a (semi)related question to my above post:

    Are there any low-cost bi-pin bulbs that will work with this set up to approximate JS's X-LOLA?

    Thanks,
    Tim
    The Carley CL-809 is a little brighter than the MN15 on primaries (300ish lumens) but would probably work on 3x17670.
    Last edited by BSBG; 05-11-2009 at 04:01 PM.
    Will work for lights.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    FYI: MrGman tested for me my Surefire M6 with MN Socket kit and WA1185. Using topped off 3 AW 17670 cells in FM holder.


    Turn-on was 1050 plus Lumens. It dropped to 850ish after 3 minutes.

    EDIT: Results are published in MrGmans Lumens sticky in the LED section.

    Jose
    Last edited by bigchelis; 05-26-2009 at 04:31 PM.
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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    This is a legendary thread! Hopefully we can see how the IMR M6 bulb compares and maybe even the EO M3T
    Cheers from the McGizmo state.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspeeds View Post
    This is a legendary thread! Hopefully we can see how the IMR M6 bulb compares and maybe even the EO M3T
    I think IMR-M3T vs EO-M3T vs MN21 with IMRs is more attractive to me.

    away I think IMR-M3T is similar to N62, high current, mid. voltage design.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    You're right Maxspeeds!

    Fred

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Thanks to DM51's thread, my M6 sees a lot of use these days.

    A 2x18650 + WA1111 setup is bright and useful enough for me.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by greenLED View Post
    Thanks to DM51's thread, my M6 sees a lot of use these days.

    A 2x18650 + WA1111 setup is bright and useful enough for me.
    thats Mdocod's holder yes?
    I'm thinking of stepping down from burning 1185 in the M6 to a 1111 because its become a hassle to recharge 3 17670s with a two bay charger

    I'm scratching my head in terms of a suitable 18650 charger and the thought of introducing yet another battery type in my collection.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    The WA 1111 with 2x18650 in mdocod's holder is a very good combination. You get more run-time, and it's easier on the cells. The only downside is the WA 1111 is $9, vs. the WA 1185 at $5.

    I don't know what charger you are using for your 17670s, but the 18650s will be fine in that. The charge time will just be a little longer.
    Resistance is futile...

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by DM51 View Post
    The WA 1111 with 2x18650 in mdocod's holder is a very good combination. You get more run-time, and it's easier on the cells. The only downside is the WA 1111 is $9, vs. the WA 1185 at $5.

    I don't know what charger you are using for your 17670s, but the 18650s will be fine in that. The charge time will just be a little longer.
    I'm using the DSD charger from Lighthound. While it states "18650" as part of their compatibility its quite a snug fit both linearly and horizontally for 2x17670s...I'm not sure how a 2x18560 could possibly fit.

    WA1111 draws 3.6 amps...my goodness, it makes me wonder why Surefire designed the MN21 to draw 5 amps...
    the comparison looks good

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illum View Post
    I'm using the DSD charger from Lighthound.
    It's time for you to upgrade to a Pila IBC!
    Resistance is futile...

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by DM51 View Post
    It's time for you to upgrade to a Pila IBC!
    yep..I just read hitthespot's review and now is looking around for one for a little less than $50

    MOs don't arrive from sales, I have no money

    I wonder...for this particular beamshot, did you use Pila or AW 18650s?
    I figured I'd just order pila cells along with the charger and be done with it

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Illum,

    Now that AW is offering the new 2600mAh 18650's, you'll get an added 400mAh over the Pila's. I just ordered the Pila IBC for $45. I have a bunch of unprotected 18650's that I haven't had the cajones to use yet. Now I'll feel safe using them with the Pila charger.

  25. #25

    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    I'm looking to get IMR-M6 setup with 3x17670, do you think it is safe to leave the light on for a long period possibly run it down from full to the cut off? Also what will the runtime like on that setup? I have afew ultrafire 17670 that I have been using for a while. I think they are not bad for price and reliability.
    Any help will be excellent good on ya CPF greeting from Aussie
    Kind Regards,
    Bram
    Still hunting for surefire 6/6c, PM me with offer

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Lumens Factory warn not to use the IMR series of LAs with ordinary LiCo (Li-Ion) cells, and you do it at your own risk.

    It's not a very good idea to run cells right down to the low-voltage cut-off, but if you do that you might get ~25 mins run-time. Don't expect the full 1,000 lumens out of the LA with those cells, though.
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    *Flashaholic* Illum's Avatar
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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by DM51 View Post
    Lumens Factory warn not to use the IMR series of LAs with ordinary LiCo (Li-Ion) cells, and you do it at your own risk.

    It's not a very good idea to run cells right down to the low-voltage cut-off, but if you do that you might get ~25 mins run-time. Don't expect the full 1,000 lumens out of the LA with those cells, though.
    IMR-M6 using (3 x IMR RCR123A): ~9 min
    9 min = 0.15 hours, IMR-RCR123A = 550mah
    550/.15 = 3666.66ma or about 3.7 amps, for an ordinary 17670 that would be 3700/1600 = 2.3C...so its around the same current draw as an 1185 and just about the same runtime.

    but 2.3C is simply brutal on the cells

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    *Flashaholic* Patriot's Avatar
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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    I believe the IMR-M6 bulb was quoted as drawing 3.0A whereas the 1185 draws 3.2A+

    Regular protected LiCo cells will be fine if the LF bulb draw can be verified. I just wouldn't use those ultrafire cells though. Either use IMR cells or use a quality AW protected LiCo cell.

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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    Yes, 3.0A is the figure given by Mark of LF in post #1 here.
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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

    I love your useful rankings in all the pertinent categories, and the overall summary icons. This is the thread that had me finally get into a light that held no justifiable interest beforehand.

    By the way, I think I see The Virgin Mary in one of those Integrating Tree shots.

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