SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

DM51

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SureFire M6 rechargeable options – SHOOTOUT (Part 2)

[Continued from Part 1...]

At long last, I have managed to get around to doing a series of shots of some of the various possible M6 rechargeable options. I have been planning to do this for a while, but something always seemed to get in the way.

Just getting all the gear together took some time.

M6R-Peli.jpg


M6R-All.jpg



Bulb options

The bulbs/LAs can be split into 2 groups: those that work with two Li-Ion cells in series (2s) and those that work with three Li-Ion cells in series (3s).

2s Li-Ions:
· MN15
· MN16
· MN20
· MN21
· Osram 64250
· WA 1111
· Philips 5761

3s Li-Ions:
· MN61
· HO-M6R
· WA 1185

The MNxx bulbs:
M6R-bulb1.jpg

M6R-bulb2.jpg



The 64250, 1111, 1185 and 5761 bulbs require a Fivemega MN bi-pin socket for the M6.
3 bi-pin bulbs in FM holders are shown here, together with the Lumens Factory HO-M6R:
M6R-bulb3.jpg



Below is a closer look at the bi-pin bulbs. The physical size of the glass envelope is important, as it determines whether or not the bulbs will actually fit through the reflector hole in the KT4 turbohead. The WA bulbs are small and compact, whereas the Philips and Osram bulbs are much larger. My 5761 did fit OK, but the Osram 64250 did not fit, so it could not be tested (I tried 3 of them, but they were all the same). With 5761 bulbs, there have been reports of variations in bulb sizes between one batch and another, so some may fit and some may not. The same may be true for 64250s.
M6R-bulb4.jpg


Those filaments are interesting too. If you compare the WA1111 and WA1185, you can immediately tell which is the higher-voltage 1185 – the filament coil is longer. The 64250 and 1111 filaments are almost exactly the same size and configuration, indicating very similar performance. The 5761 filament is a larger-diameter coil of thicker-gauge wire, and you can tell just by looking at it that it is going to absorb a lot more current than the others.


Battery options

The stock battery configuration for the M6 is 3s2p (3 series, 2 parallel) CR123A primary cells in the MB20 holder.
Rechargeable battery options available are as follows:

2s Li-Ion cell packs:
· 2s 18650 (mdocod's 2x18650 holder)
· 2s2p 14670 (Fivemega black (7.4V) 4x14670 holder + plastic insulator cap needed)
· 2s 'C' Li-Ions (with Fivemega 2C extender)

2s2p 14670 and 2s 18650 should in theory perform identically, having the same capacity, although the 2s 18650 will be a cheaper and better option. 2s 'C' gives increased capacity. However there is the disadvantage of the 2C extender lengthening the light by ~17 mm. The 5761 (and the MN21 Li-Ion option) should be used only with 2x 'C', as the current draw at ~5A is too much for 2s 18650 except in short bursts.

However, the increased discharge loads possible with Lithium Manganese (Emoli) cells, available in 18650 size, present a workable solution for M6 owners who want to use the 5761 and are not worried about short run-times.

3s Li-Ion cell packs:
· 3s2p RCR123 (in the SF stock MB20 holder)
· 3s 17670 (Fivemega 3x17670 holder)

The 3s 17670 set-up will out-perform the 3s2p RCR123s.

Here are the battery packs:

M6R-Batts2.jpg


Please note in the above pic: there is a home-made plastic cap (made by me) that fits over the +ve end of the 4x14670 holder. This is needed to prevent the +ve terminal shorting on the M6 body. It can be seen that the 3x17670 holder already has an insulating disc fitted.

The Fivemega 2C extender comes with a plastic sleeve to take the 2x 'C' Li-Ion cells, pictured above. Here is a photo of an M6 body fitted with the Fivemega 2C extender, next to a stock M6 body:

M6R-FM-2C-extn.jpg



One problem with comparison shots is trying to make sure the lights are all pointing at exactly the same spot in each successive photo. I decided I needed a solid cradle, similar in concept to a shooter's bench-rest, to hold the lights.

Mrs DM51 very kindly made an involuntary donation of a redundant chopping board for this purpose. When I realised the tremendous scientific (non-culinary) potential of this chopping board, I pointed out to her at some length that it had lethally unhygienic cracks in it, suggesting that from now on she should instead use one of her other boards, as they looked very much less conducive to salmonella, botulism, or other alarming and gruesome gastro-intestinal afflictions. Anyway, she has not said anything so far about the board going missing, and with a bit of luck she won't notice.

I glued a 45° wedge to it, and a right-angle join from a box to that, to act as a channel to lay the lights in. This is the result:

M6R-Cradle.jpg


Anchored firmly in place, it ensures each light points at the same spot.


Location

Adamlau did an excellent series of shots in an urban setting, so I chose a rural one.

SPHoriz.jpg



The target here is the large integrating tree on the right in the main photo. As marked on the photo, it is 135 yards (400 feet) from the "firing point". That is a good distance away, and it takes a powerful light to throw that far to any useful effect.

M6R-135yds-tree.jpg



BEAMSHOTS

First, here are pics of the MNxx bulbs that were tested. These are small versions of the photos, for ease of comparison side by side. Larger copies (600 x 460 pixels) can be found in post #2 – they may be useful for making "gif" rotating shots.

On the left in each case the bulb is running on primaries, and on the right you see the same bulb running on Li-Ions.

MN15
sMN15p.jpg
sMN15-2x18650.jpg


MN20
sMN20p.jpg
sMN20-2x18650.jpg


MN16
sMN16p.jpg
sMN16-2x18650.jpg


MN61
sMN61p.jpg
sMN61-3x17670.jpg


MN21
sMN21p.jpg
sMN21-2xC.jpg



In each case above, the primaries were 3s2p in the stock MB20 holder, with the exception of the MN61, which was running on 4s in a 2x18650-size Leef body. The rechargeable configurations were as shown.

Note that the MN16 seems brighter than the MN61 – this should not be the case. It is mostly because the MN16 is designed to run of 3 primaries, not 3s2p. With 2 banks of CR123As, there is far less voltage sag, so the MN16 is being overdriven. I also have to confess that the 4 cells used for the shot of the MN61 may not have been quite as fresh as the ones in the M6 bodies. That MN61 on primaries is the 1 shot in this series which is possibly suspect. All I can say is that it looked pretty bright; but the MN16 was brighter. See how the MN61 performed on Li-Ions, though!

Now it gets more interesting, as we add in some other bulbs. Time to settle a few scores!
Here are a few pairs that make interesting comparisons:

HO-M6R vs. MN20 (primaries)
sHO-M6R-3x17670.jpg
sMN20p.jpg



HO-M6R vs. MN16 (2x 18650)
sHO-M6R-3x17670.jpg
sMN16-2x18650.jpg



HO-M6R vs. MN21 (primaries)
sHO-M6R-3x17670.jpg
sMN21p.jpg



MN21 (primaries) vs. WA 1111
sMN21p.jpg
s1111-2x18650.jpg



MN21 (primaries) vs. MN61 (3x Li-Ions)
sMN21p.jpg
sMN61-3x17670.jpg



MN21 (2x 'C' Li-Ions) vs. 5761 (2x 'C' Li-Ions)
sMN21-2xC.jpg
s5761-2xC.jpg



WA 1111 vs. WA 1185
s1111-2x18650.jpg
s1185-3x17670.jpg



5761 vs. WA 1185
s5761-2xC.jpg
s1185-3x17670.jpg



Before finishing with the beamshots, I would stress again that the target is a very large tree, about 80 feet high, and it is a fair distance away – 135 yards, or 400 feet! All the photos above are with the camera on ~2x zoom. Just to illustrate this, here is what the WA 1185 beam actually looked like without the zoom:

1185-wide.jpg



Comments

You may already have formed your own conclusions from the photos above. Below are some of my thoughts.

The first thing that must be realised is that the high-output (HOLA) Surefire MN-series bulbs used with Li-Ion batteries will suffer a reduced life.

As you can see from the comparison shots above of the MN16, MN61 and MN21, they are much brighter when running on Li-Ions than they are on primaries.

This is nice, but unfortunately it comes at a cost, which is a shorter bulb life. The greater the increase in brightness, the more drastic the effect on bulb life. The MN15 and MN20 will probably do OK as they aren't driven so hard, but those 3 HOLAs are not going to last very long at all. The cost of running your M6R on Li-Ions with Surefire HOLAs at around $30 a pop may end up being as expensive as feeding it with primaries. Sorry guys, but there's no way round that one.

The lifetime of bi-pin bulbs is better documented. When over-driven, as here, these bulbs will have a lifespan in the region of ~10 hours, but they are a lot cheaper - $9 for a WA1111, and only $5 for a WA1185. And a mere $3 for a 64250 - if you can find one that fits!

Star ratings given below for practicality are awarded for various reasons, the principal one being anticipated bulb life.


Bulb performance and ratings

The MN15 confirmed its value and utility. It draws an economical 1.15 amps. I have been using it quite a lot, but until now I had not done a comparison at distance, and it is at distance that quality shows up. You only have to look at the photos above to see how well it performed. As can be seen here, and contrary to reports made elsewhere, it works well on 2x Li-Ions. Either way, with primaries or rechargeables, the MN15 is a very good option for anyone requiring a working light with long run-time. It only gets 1 star here for output, but that tree is a long way off, and the standard in this shootout is very high indeed. There can be no doubt that this is an extremely useful bulb.
Output………….. ð
Run-time……….. ððððð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :)


The MN20 is a fine all-round bulb, drawing 2.45 amps. It is a good general purpose bulb for the M6 for both primaries and Li-Ions. With this bulb, you have enough light for almost all uses.
Output………….. ðð
Run-time…….…. ðððð
Practicality……. ððð
Overall…………... :)


The MN16 gives a startlingly better performance than the MN20, beating it on output. It draws 2.6 amps, so it can be expected to be brighter, and it is. However, it is clearly over-driven on 2x Li-Ions, and its life will suffer severely.
Output………….. ððð
Run-time……….. ðððð
Practicality……. ðð
Overall…………... :caution:


The MN21 is an amazing bulb, but unless you have an endless supply of CR123A primaries, it really isn't very practical. It draws 4.9 amps. People probably fire it up from time to time to amaze their friends, but even for that purpose there are more impressive options. Using it with the FM extension and 2x 'C' Li-Ions was spectacular. However this is over-driving it hard, and bulb life is likely to be very short. From cold, I found it required double or triple-clicking to start it. For all these reasons I do not consider it a practical option.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :green:


The Philips 5761, like the MN21, is a high-current bulb, drawing 5.4 amps. It needs the FM 2C extension, as it should not be used with smaller Li-Ion cells than 'C' size. There are reports of some batches of 5761s being too large to fit through the KT4 reflector hole; certainly, it is a close fit. The filament sits up higher than the WA lamps, so ~1mm of shims are required on the base of the bi-pin holder. As if all that wasn't enough, it needs several clicks to start. Unless you intend to use LiMn (Emoli) cells in a 2x18650 holder and you don't mind extremely short run-times, it is not worth considering this bulb for the M6 (in my opinion, anyway).
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :sick2:


The MN61 is dazzling. On 3x Li-Ions it outperforms the MN21 on primaries. However, it is seriously over-driven in this configuration (3 amps measured) and there have been several reports of it instaflashing. Even where this does not happen, bulb life is going to be short and consequently expensive. Sadly, it does not seem to be a very realistic or reliable option. On output it is really 4½ stars, above 4 but not up to 5.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ððð
Practicality……. ð
Overall…………... :caution:


The WA 1111 is a great bulb. With 2x Li-Ions I measured it drawing 3.6 amps. Its output is very similar to the MN21 on primaries, as I have shown in another thread, and it uses less (and free) power. It is a very good option indeed, with useful run-time on 2x18650. It is no surprise how good this is. It is a very fine combination for the M6.
Output………….. ðððð
Run-time….……. ðððð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :devil:


Some people are lucky enough to have an Osram 64250 that will fit into a KT4; however mine did not. I would expect it to perform almost identically to the WA 1111 (cheaper, too – it is $3 instead of $9). If you are really skilled at grinding glass down with a dremel, you might be able to shave the sides of these bulbs down just enough to fit, and then you will be in business!


The Lumens Factory HO-M6R was the best surprise of this shootout. It draws 2.1 amps from 3x Li-Ions – that is Lumens Factory's own figure, and it proved accurate on measurement. This means it can be used safely with 3s2p RCR123 Li-Ions in the stock MB20 holder; however it will perform better with 3x17670s. The HO-M6R has always been described as being "somewhere between the MN20 and MN21 in output". Well, we can now officially scratch that description as inadequate. It stomped the MN20, and it gave the MN21 a very good run for its money. It was a far closer thing than I thought it would be. It has a tighter beam, and I think it actually out-throws the MN21. Throw is a feature of Lumens Factory bulbs, and this is a superb thrower. I knew it was good, but it took this comparison to show just how good it really is.
Output………….. ððð
Run-time……….. ðððð
Practicality……. ððððð
Overall…………... :D


Finally, as expected, and as can be seen from the photos, the WA 1185 with 3x17670 was the winner in the power contest. Drawing 3.3 amps, it matches the 5761 for output, and is a much more practical alternative if sheer power is what you want.
Output………….. ððððð
Run-time……….. ðð
Practicality……. ðððð
Overall…………... :devil:


I hope this thread is some help to those deciding what to run in their own M6.
 
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DM51

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This is the new Part 2. The original post (above) is copied from Part 1, and is now showing its age, as there have been quite a few new developments and products announced that are not covered there.

They've been mentioned in other posts in Part 1, so at some stage when I have time, I'll edit this post to summarise them.
 

Bimmerboy

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The first thread was great, but now there's even more stuff, which can only make it better!

LOL @ "integrating tree". Wish I had a good one... they're all too close, and give false readings!

Most any place around here where you can get some good distance, will also probably result in the police getting called. :sigh: This is especially since the two best locations are behind my old high school, and the other, right next to a police station!... lol. Guess they wouldn't even need to be called in that circumstance.
 

Nanomiser

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I just ordered an IMR-M6 1000 lumen bulb and three AW 17670 cells, but I am being told that I need to use AW IMR cells only to run this bulb. Being that AW doesn't offer an IMR version of the 17670 I went with what's available.

What is the difference between an IMR AW cell and a regular AW cell?

Will it really make a difference on the maximum possible output of the M6 1000 bulb?

Would the performance of my HO-M6R using a 3S AW17670 configuration be the same as using a 3s2p AWRCR123A in my stock MB20 holder?

What are the main drivers for using a 3s2p setup?
 

bigchelis

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IMR cells can handle up to 4.5amps. The AW cells can handle less current. I had MrGman test my Surefire M6 with 3 AW 17670 cells that were almost fully charged and it did 850ish out the front lumens. I will ask MrGman to test it again with topped off cells, but my guess is that if the battery can't handle the high current effectively the voltage will sag and my numbers will remain low. I was expecting around 1000 lumens out the front.

I will update when he re-tests it for me.

Thanks,
Jose

I just ordered an IMR-M6 1000 lumen bulb and three AW 17670 cells, but I am being told that I need to use AW IMR cells only to run this bulb. Being that AW doesn't offer an IMR version of the 17670 I went with what's available.

What is the difference between an IMR AW cell and a regular AW cell?

Will it really make a difference on the maximum possible output of the M6 1000 bulb?

Would the performance of my HO-M6R using a 3S AW17670 configuration be the same as using a 3s2p AWRCR123A in my stock MB20 holder?

What are the main drivers for using a 3s2p setup?
 

325addict

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remember, that with incans, only a small voltage drop is required to have a big drop in output. LEDs are less sensitive for this.

With only 5%(!) drop in voltage, you'll have a drop in output of about 18%
With a 10% drop in voltage, you'll suffer a drop in output of more than 30%!!

I have a booklet from the Swiss switch-manufacturer EAO on incan bulbs, LEDs, multi-LEDs and so on, in which a marvelous graph is printed.


Timmo.
 

Snow

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This thread is responsible for me moving the M6 from the "someday" category of lights I wanted to the "I need one NOW" category. One SureFire M6, FM bipin adapter, 3x17670 holder, and 1185 later, and I am very happy. lovecpf
 

jslappa

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This thread is responsible for me moving the M6 from the "someday" category of lights I wanted to the "I need one NOW" category. One SureFire M6, FM bipin adapter, 3x17670 holder, and 1185 later, and I am very happy. lovecpf

That is a very nice and potent setup. Now all you need is AW's softstart switch to give you 3 levels of brightness. The M6 has certainly become one of the most versatile lights around.

The use of rechargeables has certainly breathed new life back into this platform.
 

Tim W

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Runtime question

That is a very nice and potent setup. Now all you need is AW's softstart switch to give you 3 levels of brightness. The M6 has certainly become one of the most versatile lights around.

The use of rechargeables has certainly breathed new life back into this platform.

That is the setup I'm using, also.

What sort of runtimes should we see with the lower levels this switch offers.

I did run it for about 35 minutes last night on low, but forgot to check the voltages before I put the batteries on the charger.

Thanks,
Tim
 

BSBG

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a (semi)related question to my above post:

Are there any low-cost bi-pin bulbs that will work with this set up to approximate JS's X-LOLA?

Thanks,
Tim

The Carley CL-809 is a little brighter than the MN15 on primaries (300ish lumens) but would probably work on 3x17670.
 
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bigchelis

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FYI: MrGman tested for me my Surefire M6 with MN Socket kit and WA1185. Using topped off 3 AW 17670 cells in FM holder.


Turn-on was 1050 plus Lumens. It dropped to 850ish after 3 minutes.

EDIT: Results are published in MrGmans Lumens sticky in the LED section.:popcorn:

Jose
 
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maxspeeds

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This is a legendary thread! Hopefully we can see how the IMR M6 bulb compares :poke: and maybe even the EO M3T :D
 

cenz

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This is a legendary thread! Hopefully we can see how the IMR M6 bulb compares :poke: and maybe even the EO M3T :D

I think IMR-M3T vs EO-M3T vs MN21 with IMRs is more attractive to me.

away I think IMR-M3T is similar to N62, high current, mid. voltage design.
 

greenLED

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Thanks to DM51's thread, my M6 sees a lot of use these days.

A 2x18650 + WA1111 setup is bright and useful enough for me.
 

Illum

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Thanks to DM51's thread, my M6 sees a lot of use these days.

A 2x18650 + WA1111 setup is bright and useful enough for me.

thats Mdocod's holder yes?
I'm thinking of stepping down from burning 1185 in the M6 to a 1111 because its become a hassle to recharge 3 17670s with a two bay charger :shakehead :rant: :banghead:

I'm scratching my head in terms of a suitable 18650 charger and the thought of introducing yet another battery type in my collection.
 

DM51

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The WA 1111 with 2x18650 in mdocod's holder is a very good combination. You get more run-time, and it's easier on the cells. The only downside is the WA 1111 is $9, vs. the WA 1185 at $5.

I don't know what charger you are using for your 17670s, but the 18650s will be fine in that. The charge time will just be a little longer.
 
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