how many lumens from a single cell in the future

Barrie

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Hello to you all
i am relatively new to this world of high power LEDs

i was only familiar with lights that were available to buy of the shelf in the shops and most of them are not very impressive

LED lights i had in the past were really not all that good for outdoor walking 3 and 5mm multi led

so i was totally amazed when i saw the amount of light that a single cell light is producing we are getting close to 100 lumens from a single AAA
well over 100 lumens from a AA and over 200 lumens from a Cr123

brighter and more efficient lights are coming out all the time so what can we realistically expect from a single cell light in the future :thinking:

Barrie
 

DM51

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This is principally a question of emitter efficiency/output, so i'm moving your thread from LED Flashlights to the LED forum.
 

Gunner12

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Currently, a single IMR RCR123 can power a quad die LED at full power or more, so that means 500-700 lumen out the front. Of course runtime is short.

In the future, 1000+ lumen from a LED powered by single cell that can handle a high current(like the IMR ones) should be possible.
 

jtr1962

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In the future, 1000+ lumen from a LED powered by single cell that can handle a high current(like the IMR ones) should be possible.
That's highly dependent upon the state of boost drivers in the future. Right now getting a boost driver to operate efficiently while drawing more than about 3 amps from a AA cell is problematic given the necessarily small size of the driver board.

But let's say 3 amps and 1.2 volts. That's 3.6 watts into the convertor. Assume 85% efficiency (about the best you can do nowadays for such a setup), and you have 3.06 watts to the LED. Maximum theoretical efficiency for blue plus phosphor whites is around 250 lm/W, so that's about 765 bulb lumens. If we can perfect RGB whites by developing efficient red and green emitters we can potentially get up to 400 lm/W, or roughly 1225 bulb lumens. Of course, LEDs will never reach 100% efficiency. Nothing in this world ever does. At best I'll assume 80%, so the figures are ~600 and ~1000 lumens, respectively. Ironically, in both of these 80% efficiency cases nearly half the waste heat will come from the convertor.

With better battery and convertor technology we can of course greatly exceed these figures.
 

Benson

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That's highly dependent upon the state of boost drivers in the future. Right now getting a boost driver to operate efficiently while drawing more than about 3 amps from a AA cell is problematic given the necessarily small size of the driver board.
IMR cells are LiMn Li-ion cells -- they're running P7s and MC-Es at full current with linear regulators, or even overdriving them in DD, so unless the next generation of high-power LEDs have higher Vf or can't be paralleled, boost drivers aren't needed.

While it's true that battery, driver, and LED advances can get better brightness, I think we're nearly to the point where brightness of practical single-cell lights is limited by runtime/energy considerations rather than power, and I don't really see energy density of high-power batteries increasing very fast.
 

moviles

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2250 lumens with sst-90 and one aw 18650 imr (3.6v 9a)
200209_Luminus_SST-90.jpg

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/224644
http://www.luminus.com/stuff/conten...2_sst_90_w_product_datasheet_illumination.pdf

and 2750 lumens with cst-90 and one aw 18650 imr ( 3.4v 13.5a)

phlatlight_cst-90_mar09.jpg

http://www.luminus.com/stuff/conten...__cst_90_w_product_datasheet_illumination.pdf
 

bigchelis

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That's highly dependent upon the state of boost drivers in the future. Right now getting a boost driver to operate efficiently while drawing more than about 3 amps from a AA cell is problematic given the necessarily small size of the driver board.

But let's say 3 amps and 1.2 volts. That's 3.6 watts into the convertor. Assume 85% efficiency (about the best you can do nowadays for such a setup), and you have 3.06 watts to the LED. Maximum theoretical efficiency for blue plus phosphor whites is around 250 lm/W, so that's about 765 bulb lumens. If we can perfect RGB whites by developing efficient red and green emitters we can potentially get up to 400 lm/W, or roughly 1225 bulb lumens. Of course, LEDs will never reach 100% efficiency. Nothing in this world ever does. At best I'll assume 80%, so the figures are ~600 and ~1000 lumens, respectively. Ironically, in both of these 80% efficiency cases nearly half the waste heat will come from the convertor.

With better battery and convertor technology we can of course greatly exceed these figures.


You cant use 80% efficient because in the real world it just doesn't work that way. You have to consider heatsinking and cell capabilities at high current.


Ex: MrGman testing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Testing w/ P60 P7 direct drive in a 6P w/ IMR 18650.
1. w/IMR 18650 = 350 Lumens
2. w/ 2 primaries = 450 lumens
3. w/ 3 "C" NiMH cells in Fivemega body = 550 ish Lumens.

Then the same bin P7 driven the same way and made by the same person "Nailbender", but in a 1D Mag. Only improvement was the heatsink.
1. w/IMR 18650 = 704 Lumens
In this test you can see that in the past we used a 6P hosts and using the same cell we got only 350 Lumens, but by just increasing the LED cooling factors using an Electrolumens heatsink for Maglights we more than doubled our lumens.

Next. Using the same bin P7 and the Mag made by Nailbender the same exact way as the 1D Mag P7 w/ IMR 18650 and the P60 P7 drop-in.

This time he built it around a 2D Maglight running "3" NiMH Tenergy 5000mAh.
1. w/ 3 "C" cells= 870 lumens
In this final test we increased both the cells (bigger cells, more ideal for high current) and the heatsink and we were rewarded with lumens almost as the specsheet dictates. 3A of current at the tail with this set-up.

The single cell lumens for the future will rely on the cooling factors needed for high current LED's. Without vast improvements in cooling I don't see how much improvements could be made. My Single Cell P7 and MC-E P60 drop-ins running on a single IMR 16340 were 320~345 Lumens for a split second before dropping. This includes the Malkoff, DX MC-E, and Nailbender made P60 drop-ins.

bigchelis
 
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tebore

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You cant use 80% efficient because in the real world it just doesn't work that way. You have to consider heatsinking and cell capabilities at high current.


Ex: MrGman testing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Testing w/ P60 P7 direct drive in a 6P w/ IMR 18650.
1. w/IMR 18650 = 350 Lumens
2. w/ 2 primaries = 450 lumens
3. w/ 3 "C" NiMH cells in Fivemega body = 550 ish Lumens.

Then the same bin P7 driven the same way and made by the same person "Nailbender", but in a 1D Mag. Only improvement was the heatsink.
1. w/IMR 18650 = 704 Lumens
In this test you can see that in the past we used a 6P hosts and using the same cell we got only 350 Lumens, but by just increasing the LED cooling factors using an Electrolumens heatsink for Maglights we more than doubled our lumens.

Next. Using the same bin P7 and the Mag made by Nailbender the same exact way as the 1D Mag P7 w/ IMR 18650 and the P60 P7 drop-in.

This time he built it around a 2D Maglight running "3" NiMH Tenergy 5000mAh.
1. w/ 3 "C" cells= 870 lumens
In this final test we increased both the cells (bigger cells, more ideal for high current) and the heatsink and we were rewarded with lumens almost as the specsheet dictates. 3A of current at the tail with this set-up.

The single cell lumens for the future will rely on the cooling factors needed for high current LED's. Without vast improvements in cooling I don't see how much improvements could be made. My Single Cell P7 and MC-E P60 drop-ins running on a single IMR 16340 were 320~345 Lumens for a split second before dropping. This includes the Malkoff, DX MC-E, and Nailbender made P60 drop-ins.

bigchelis

You're thinking when you increase efficiency and increase power to the emitter heat is linearly increasing as well. However when we increase efficiency the heat released by an emitter is much less. Therefore we can just pump more power in to an emitter. This is one reason why we can even pump 1A in to a Cree and have it operate as long as it can compared to a Lux 3. Besides package differences that allow for lower thermal resistance.
 

bigchelis

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You're thinking when you increase efficiency and increase power to the emitter heat is linearly increasing as well. However when we increase efficiency the heat released by an emitter is much less. Therefore we can just pump more power in to an emitter. This is one reason why we can even pump 1A in to a Cree and have it operate as long as it can compared to a Lux 3. Besides package differences that allow for lower thermal resistance.


I hope this continues to happen. For some reason I keep reading reviews of 500 plus lumen P7/MC-E lights powered by a single IMR 16340 in a Surefire 3P type light. Not even in a 6P type light with a single IMR 18650 have the lumens hit over 500 out the front. So, while I agree that the Cree's have improved in every department. The quad emitters generate tons of heat and benefit better from big NiMH cells and huge heatsinks like the Electrolumens heatsink found on P7 Mag builds.

I am really into aspheric lights right now and the R2/Q5 bins work great with them in a Mag or 6P type light, but I can't seem to drive them more than 1A. When I do the lumens drop as tested by MrGman. (see his numbers in the LED thread he has). I really hope the R2's can be kept cool at 1.4A, since those drivers are readily available at DX. My lights at 1.4A suffered in the lumen department under MrGman testing, but to my eyes I would have bet my left arm they were brighter. lol...

Jose
 
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