Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell “C” bodies w/ SF KT-2 TH **More Beamshots**

Kestrel

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A narrative of the FM C-cell "C" bodies - getting the maximum performance from 2xC & 3xC Alkaline cells and the SureFire KT-2 Turbohead.

Synopsis: A low voltage LED tower can be built to significantly outperform the Malkoff M30 in a low-voltage configuration (i.e ~2.5v), using standard 'Alkaline C' cells.

Comparison pics to the standard SureFire C3 / Malkoff M60 / 2x17500, with beamshots.

Edit: Additional beamshots with the low voltage Malkoff M30 in the FM C-cell "C" bodies as a comparison have just been added.


Earlier this year, FM introduced the C-cell C-bodies which accepted standard SF P60-type lamp assemblies. There was significant initial interest in these bodies, as they were designed for using AW protected LiIon C cells of 3300 mAh capacity, providing both high output and very long potential runtimes with LED modules such as the Malkoff M60. However, these LiIon C cells were out of stock & soon to be officially discontinued. Problem to be solved: Once these FM bodies were purchased, what can be done with them? Being interested in maximum efficiency, I decided to pursue the maximum possible performance from these C-cell bodies while using commonly available Alkaline C cells. This left two options: using the excellent low-voltage Malkoff M30 with these bodies, or getting a custom-built LED tower and pairing that with the SF KT-2 turbohead. The second option has the advantage of getting a very high degree of throw while retaining excellent beam quality. Either option would make good use of the very long runtimes available from C-size cells.

It should be noted that these bodies were designed for the 3mm longer LiIon C cells. Since connection is intermittent while using the Malkoff M30 drop-in (which uses a rather short contact spring), I had a simple 6mm spacer fabricated of insulating fiberglass and a pressed-in stainless steel insert. The somewhat longer spring of the LED tower permits the shorter alkaline cells to be used without requiring a spacer in the FM 2xC, which was a nice surprise. There were absolutely no connection issues in the tested configurations.
0213091535a-1.jpg
0211091630a-1.jpg
0211091637a-1.jpg


CPF'er Justin Case built the LED tower using a neutral-tint SSC P4, driven by the extremely efficient BadBoy NexGen 1000 regulated driver board. This driver was necessary to wring the highest possible performance from alkaline cells which are quite limited in their ability to supply high currents. My sincere thanks to him for his extensive research into finding an excellent solution for these configurations. His initial evaluation after building this LED tower is that it would produce ~200 lumens from 2x NiMH AA cells, an impressive achievement compared to the Malkoff M30, which produces ~120 lumens from the same cells. If/when NiMH C-sized cells are used in the 2xC body, this tower should produce the ~240 lumen rated maximum due to the higher current capabilities of NiMH C & less voltage drop. The tower should also have no difficulty attaining a 240 lumen output with the 3xC body.
017LEDs.jpg


First, some comparison photos of the various configurations.
The SureFire C3 / M60 / 2x17500, a standard on CPF with excellent overall performance:
003SFC3M60-1.jpg


The FM 2xC & 3xC bodies, with either the SureFire KT-2 Turbohead or the standard SureFire bezels:
(It has been noted elsewhere that the FM 3xC is of comparable length or slightly shorter than the Mag 2C.)
002FM2xCTH.jpg
005FM2xC.jpg


004FM3xCTH.jpg
001FM3xC.jpg


The business end of the LED tower in the 2.5" SF KT-2 Turbohead vs. a Malkoff in a standard SF bezel:
(The distance to the camera is the same, amazingly enough.)
010TH.jpg
012M60.jpg


Initial impressions with Ceiling Bounce: The output from the LED tower on 2xC was nearly as high as the output from the 240 lumen M60 standard, while the output from the M30 on 2xC was noticibly less. The output from the LED tower on 3xC was comparable to the M60, while the M30 on 3xC managed to catch up, as it is now running at ~3.6v and should be comparable to the M60 at ~7.4v.

Initial impressions outdoors: The throw of the LED tower in the FM 2xC w/ KT-2 TH was at least equal and possibly greater than the high-voltage M60 configuration. This is interesting in light of the fact that the M60 is consuming ~4.5W of power, while the LED tower is consuming a miserly ~2.5W. Obviously there was less spill from the TH, but this build was done to achieve maximum throw for minimum consumed power, while using commonly-available alkaline C cells. In addition, runtime should be excellent, with at least 3 hours of regulation in 2xC with many more hours of gradually declining light output. Performance with 3xC should be even better, with greater output as well as longer runtime. I may do a runtime test in a few days. However, without a light meter, it is difficult to determine when the LED falls out of regulation with cells that exhibit such a gradual decline in output.
Edit: Runtime test information in post # 33.

And now for the beamshots.:thumbsup:
All photos were taken at a distance of 7 feet, with the flashlights 6 feet from the wall.

Keep in mind that the M60 beamshots represent ~4.5 watts of consumed power, while the LED tower beamshots represent only ~2.5 watts of consumed power. Even though Alkaline C cells are not very energy-dense, the extremely low power consumption will result in extremely long runtimes. Regulated runtimes on alkaline C's should be in the 3-4 hour range, with long graceful declines of ~4 hours of more-than-adequate performance. :huh:

Darkened room:
023Standard.jpg


A SureFire C3 with the M60 and 2x17500 was used as a (high-voltage) comparison standard:
(This particular M60 is an extraordinary one, a little on the warm side, and exhibiting virtually no rings.)
024M60.jpg


FM 2xC w/ SF Turbohead:___________________FM 2xC w/ Malkoff M30:
(Note that both hotspots are saturating the camera making maximum brightness comparisons between the two configurations difficult. Underexposed beamshots are later in the post which do a better job of representing the brightness of the hotspots. However, note the significantly greater spill from the M30.)
025FM2xC.jpg
036FM2xCM30.jpg


FM 3xC w/ SF Turbohead:___________________FM 3xC w/ Malkoff M30:
(the slightly increased spill (compared to 2xC) in the Turbohead photograph below left, was real, and not a photographic artifact)
026FM3xC.jpg
034FM3xCM30.jpg


Streamlight Stylus Pro 2xAAA alkaline:
(a 20 lumen penlight with decent throw as a low-end comparison)
027SLStylus2xAA.jpg


Darkened room, underexposed:
031StandardUnderexposed.jpg


SureFire C3 / Malkoff M60 / 2x17500 (high-voltage) comparison, underexposed:
028M60Underexposed.jpg


FM 2xC w/ SF Turbohead, underexposed:_______FM 2xC w/ Malkoff M30, underexposed:
(Note that the hot spot from the Turbohead (below, left) appears to be quite intense, and is somewhat superior to the high-voltage M60 configuration above. It also soundly trumps the adjacent M30 hotspot to the right (both are running at 2.5v), at which voltage the M30 significantly underperforms the LED tower in total output. This was the primary goal of this build.)
033FM2xCUnderexposed.jpg
037FM2xCM30Underexposed.jpg


FM 3xC w/ SF Turbohead, underexposed:_______FM 3xC w/ Malkoff M30, underexposed:
(An excellent 240 lumen spot below, focused by the top-class SF KT-2 Turbohead. Although the total lumen output should be comparable to the lumen output from the adjacent M30 now that the M30 is running at spec (3.7-3.8v), the hotspot from the TH is considerably brighter, with much less spill.)
029FM3xCUnderexposed.jpg
035FM3xCM30Underexposed.jpg


Conclusions: I am extremely impressed with both of these Alkaline C configurations combined with the SureFire 2.5" Turbohead. The resultant hotspots are very intense, exceeding the performance from the much higher wattage Malkoff M60 / 2x17500. It was interesting to note that the LED tower was able to achieve near-maximum performance from 2xC alkaline, with modest gains going to 3xC, while the Malkoff M30 exhibited only modest performance from 2xC and gaining quite a bit going to 3xC.

I also expect that runtimes on 3xC will be longer with the LED tower than with the M30, as the LED tower uses the BadBoy NexGen driver with less internal voltage drop.
 
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cernobila

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Re: Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell "C" bodies w/ KT-2 TH **Lots of Beamsho

Thanks for the above, I have a similar concern in what to do with my "C" bodies (once all my AW C Li-Ion cells have expired) and your ideas could also be applicable to the BigLeef system as it uses the same add-ons......I will keep an eye on this one.....
 
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Bullzeyebill

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Re: Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell "C" bodies w/ KT-2 TH **Lots of Beamsho

Very nice. What is the current draw from batteries with two C Alkalines using the 1000mA to LED Nexgen and KT2, and does the output have a fairly flat runtime. I would guess that the current draw would be in excess of 1.5 amps, which is fairly stiff for two C Alkalines I find the current draw using two Eneloop's and the M30 to be at about 1 amp for the 120 or so lumens but that is at about 600mA's or less to the LED. Did JustinCase use bounce with a lightmeter to measure the approximate 200 lumens using the SF Turbohead?

Bill
 

LIGHTSMAD

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Re: Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell "C" bodies w/ KT-2 TH **Lots of Beamsho

what is the brightest led option i can use with 2X NiMh batterys in a FM 2C cell body without using KT-2 Head just standard 9P bezel?
 

Justin Case

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Re: Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell "C" bodies w/ KT-2 TH **Lots of Beamsho

Did JustinCase use bounce with a lightmeter to measure the approximate 200 lumens using the SF Turbohead?

Bill
It was a calculated figure, and also based on 1 meter hot spot and spill lux comparisons to some other lights.
 

Kestrel

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Re: Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell "C" bodies w/ KT-2 TH **Lots of Beamsho

Very nice. What is the current draw from batteries with two C Alkalines using the 1000mA to LED Nexgen and KT2, and does the output have a fairly flat runtime. I would guess that the current draw would be in excess of 1.5 amps, which is fairly stiff for two C Alkalines I find the current draw using two Eneloop's and the M30 to be at about 1 amp for the 120 or so lumens but that is at about 600mA's or less to the LED. Did JustinCase use bounce with a lightmeter to measure the approximate 200 lumens using the SF Turbohead?
I can't say on the actual current draw, Justin Case did some calculations a while back. The driver was calculated to deliver ~800 mA to the LED from 2.5 volts input, and the situation is aided by the fact that there should be slightly less voltage drop from 2xC alkaline after looking at SilverFox's test data & doing a little interpolation - I'm guessing 1.25v instead of 1.2v from C cells @ ~1.5A. I'll try to do some runtime tests if I can get those M30 beamshots done first on these cells.
what is the brightest led option i can use with 2X NiMh batterys in a FM 2C cell body without using KT-2 Head just standard 9P bezel?
It might be possible to build a 6P-sized module using this efficient driver to attempt to outperform the M30, but any gains would be only incremental. I think that the best possible performance from the standard bezel (without going to any inconvenience) would be using the Malkoff M30 drop-in a FM 3xC, as at least that will be able to supply the nominal voltage that the M30 needs for a ~240 lumen output.

The thing is that in the 2xC configuration, these cells are already running at pretty much their maximum capability. (2xC NiMH could result in the driver running at optimum, getting the full 240 lumens from the P4 emitter. However, I am not very impressed with the LSD NiMH C cells that are currently available, and I do not use these lights enough to make traditional NiMH worthwhile). It would be possible to run a 4-die LED from these cells, but since the driver is already putting out the maximum current possible (either from 2xC Alkaline or 2xC NiMH), the only thing that would be gained would be the modest increase in efficiency by each of the four LED's getting a only portion of the total drive current. However, the larger emitting area would result in considerably less throw from the KT-2 Turbohead or the conventional 6P head / reflector for that matter. For example, Justin Case measured only ~half the lux from an MC-E compared to a P4 driven by 2xLiIon in a conventional SF Turbohead configuration, IIRC, even though the total output from the 4-die MC-E was ~ double the output from the P4.

My goal for this build was to get everything I could get from 2xC alkaline, then focusing as much of the resulting output as possible to get a high-performance thrower. In addition, I expect the runtimes will be very good, as the M30 did ~3 1/4 hours before any noticeable drop in output from 2xC alkaline.
 
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Justin Case

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Re: Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell "C" bodies w/ KT-2 TH **Lots of Beamsho

It's been a while now and I'm trying to remember the calculations and measurements I did.

I believe that I measured tailcap current draw for 1xSF123A since I didn't have a flashlight body that could accommodate 2xAA NiMH.

The odd thing was that the measured current draw was lower than expected for a BBNG1000 (1000ma to the LED). IIRC, I measured around 1.2A, but expected about 1.5A. The problems were that I didn't measure Vf of the LED, nor If (don't have a bench power supply anyway). Thus, measuring tailcap current draw is somewhat of an indirect method of determining forward current, since the DMM resistance can affect the measurement. Also, it is just an educated guess as to the BBNG efficiency, although I did a brief sensitivity analysis to compensate (basically I made calculations for a low and a high efficiency number to bracket the scenario).

But to be conservative, I assumed that the 1.2A tailcap current measurement was the actual current draw. For the assumed driver efficiencies (80% and 90% IIRC), assumed battery voltage (2.5V), and assumed Vf (3.4V IIRC), I estimated either 700mA or 800mA for the forward currrent.

Clearly, small differences in actual voltage drop can affect the forward current value significantly. So, the BBNG could very well be delivering 1000mA, but since I didn't verify this via actual measurement, I didn't want to make any unsupported claims about expected performance.

Ahh, I've just found more data.

I also tried 1xAW16340 and measured 1.02-1.06A, which might mean I was running direct drive with the Vbatt slightly higher than Vf. However, I also measured a hot spot lux at 1 meter of 9500, vs 8500 for the 1xSF123A case.

My best guess is that 1xAW16340 is the performance one would get if the BBNG1000 were running in full regulation. 9500 lux for the hot spot is basically what I also measure for the hot spot when using an SOB1000 to drive the SSC P4, with battery configurations of 2xLi-ion, 3xLi-ion, and 4xSF123A. It is possible that the BBNG1000 is running in safe mode, which IIRC results in an output current of abut 750mA. It is also possible that my hot spot lux measurement is off and the BBNG is running in full regulation. My lux measurements are a handheld procedure, trying to aim the hot spot at the meter's sensor to find the sweet spot. If I'm at 98cm vs 100 cm vs 102 cm, or not quite square to the meter, I'm sure that can affect the measurement.

Either way, I think that this is a very cool setup and it motivated me to use the same LED and driver in a 2C Maglite mod (which works great BTW).
 
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Justin Case

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Re: Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell "C" bodies w/ KT-2 TH **Lots of Beamsho

It might be possible to build a 6P-sized module using this efficient driver to attempt to outperform the M30, but any gains would be only incremental. I think that the best possible performance from the standard bezel (without going to any inconvenience) would be using the Malkoff M30 drop-in a FM 3xC, as at least that will be able to supply the nominal voltage that the M30 needs for a ~240 lumen output.
Probably the main problem in trying to use a Badboy Nexgen in a P60 drop-in is that the BBNG is a 14mm diameter driver, while P60 drop-ins typically use 17mm drivers. You'd have to make some sort of collar for the BBNG.
 

Kestrel

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Re: Low voltage LED options for the FM C-cell "C" bodies w/ KT-2 TH **Lots of Beamsho

Low-voltage M30 beamshots have just been added to Post # 1 as a comparison to the low-voltage LED tower / Turbohead combo.
:party:
Note that at 2.5 volts, the hotspot from the low-voltage LED tower / SF Turbohead soundly trumps the M30 hotspot. At this voltage, the LED tower significantly outperforms the M30 in total output (~200 vs ~120 lumens). This higher output plus significantly greater throw was the primary goal of this build.

Running both configurations on 3xC at 3.7-3.8v, the total lumen output from the low-voltage LED tower should be comparable to the lumen output from the M30 now that the M30 is running at spec. However, the hotspot from the LED tower / Turbohead is still significantly brighter due to the excellent SF Turbohead.
 
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Bullzeyebill

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Kestrel, would you please measure the current from 2 C Alkaline's using the 1A driver and the KT2 turbohead. Measure at tailcap with DMM. Thanks,

Bill
 

Justin Case

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Not Kestrel, but I've measured 1.17A in a 2C Maglite mod using the same SSC P4 U2-bin and BBNG1000 setup for both 2xAA Eneloops and 2xRayOVac alkalines. Basically the same as what I measured for the Turbo Tower running one SF123A.

I hope to measure Vf and If for this Mag to get an idea of how the Turbo Tower setup is also running. No bench supply available, so the V-I measurement will have to be in-situ driven by the batteries. Due to DMM interaction (added resistance), there is also the possibility that the current measurement may be off. I don't know if I can figure out a safe way to measure V and I simultaneously. I have to ensure that the DMM connections are secure. Powering the BBNG without a load will fry the driver.
 
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Kestrel

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Kestrel, would you please measure the current from 2 C Alkaline's using the 1A driver and the KT2 turbohead. Measure at tailcap with DMM. Thanks,

Not Kestrel, but I've measured 1.17A in a 2C Maglite mod using the same SSC P4 U2-bin and BBNG1000 setup for both 2xAA Eneloops and 2xRayOVac alkalines ...
Due to DMM interaction (added resistance), there is also the possibility that the current measurement may be off.
Well, I guess I might be able to dig up a DMM around here somewhere... So if the draw off of 2xAA alkaline is ~1.2 A, 2xC Alkaline could be a slightly higher, also, no idea if the DMM adds any resistance as JC suggests, altering the result??

Off-topic, actually measuring currents & voltages is something I haven't explored yet. From what I've read, voltages under load are particularly problematic.
 
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Bullzeyebill

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Thanks for your efforts. Any resistance issues using DMM for current measurements will be minimal, and at least give a ball park figure, particularly when compared to same kinds of measurements with other lights. Differences will be obvious. We are not rocked scientists here. Another good tool is bounce with lightmeter, and while not a reliable tool for lumen numbers, it can give some comparisions numbers for our different lights. Selfbuilt makes good use of bounce with a lightmeter. I look forward to your runtime tests. Do you have a lightmeter?

Bill
 

Justin Case

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I measured 3.27V Vf for the SSC P4 U2SW0H-bin in the 2C Mag driven by 2xAA Eneloops. The Eneloops each measured 1.356V resting.

I also measured 3.37V Vf for one of my Turbo Towers running an SOB1000. Batt configs here were 2xAW17670 (total resting voltage measured 8.16V) and 4xDuracell123A (total resting voltage measured 12.10V).

I would assume, though I didn't verify yet by de-soldering one leg of the LED connection, that the Turbo Tower was running at full power (1000mA forward current). Measuring If for the Mag setup is especially dicey since the boost board will fry if a load isn't connected. I might try it with the SOB-driven tower, but I need to get some sunglasses first.

Assuming relatively constant Vf from emitter to emitter, it looks like the P4 when driven by 2xAA Eneloops isn't quite running at full power.

The problem is that Vf may not be that consistent:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/201190

Also, it's unclear to me that DMM resistance is negligible when measuring current, but short of having a bench supply or a clamp-on DC ammeter, what can you do:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/212271
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/201190&page=2

I suppose I need to measure more SSC P4 Vfs. If I can figure out a way to drive my 2C Mag with 1x18650, that might also help.
 

Justin Case

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Off-topic, actually measuring currents & voltages is something I haven't explored yet. From what I've read, voltages under load are particularly problematic.
What you want to do is measure the voltage for the LED, not the batteries. Thus, put the probes across the two leads of the LED, turn on the light, and read the voltage. Use some sunglasses so that the bare LED doesn't dazzle your vision.

For the LED current, you would have to de-solder one leg of the LED and then put the DMM in series. Then turn on the light. You DO NOT want to power the BBNG without a load connected. That will fry the driver. This is why I am reluctant to measure If on my completed 2C Mag mod. The best way to do this is probably to solder a short piece of wire to the exposed LED lead and then clip the DMM probes to the LED wire and the driver wire. Trying to clip something to the short stub of LED lead that is left is just asking for trouble.
 
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MrGman

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M30 on a regulated power supply at various voltages and the current draw there of.
1.5V 0.84A 1.26W-----
2.0V 0.88A 1.76W-----
3.0V 0.97A 2.91W------
3.2V 1.00A 3.20W
3.6V 1.10A 3.96W-----
4.0V 1.29A 5.16W-----
4.2V 1.42A 5.96W------
4.5V 1.60A 7.20W
5.0V 1.89A 9.45W

M60__from Regulated power supply,
Volts___amps___watts______,
3.0_____0.09____0.27__,
3.2_____0.22____0.70__,
3.5_____0.38____1.33__,
3.6_____0.51____1.84__,
3.8_____0.66____2.51__,
4.0_____0.86____3.44__,
4.2_____1.08____4.54__,
4.5_____0.85____3.83__,
4.7_____0.88____4.14__,
5.0_____0.80____4.00__,
5.5_____0.74____4.07__,
6.0_____0.69____4.14__,
7.0_____0.60____4.20__,
7.9_____0.56____4.42__,
8.0_____0.53____4.24__,
8.4_____0.50____4.20__,
8.5_____0.49____4.17__,
9.0_____0.47____4.23__,
9.5_____0.45____4.28__,


From what I have seen you can't get maximum brightness of an M30 with the voltage available of only 2 C alkalines or 2 C NiMH. You could get it with 3 Alkalines if they hold up but it won't be for long. The output is not well regulated power wise. Increasing and decreasing the voltage did cause brightness changes. The changes in power consumption does correspond to output. I would not continually run the Malkoff M30 at 5V and over 9 watts of power. But it is definitely possible to get more out of the M30 running close to 5V than the M60 which is much better regulated. Just don't burn it up. As it was really designed to run off of 1X18650 or equivalent or maybe 3XAA NiMH the power in those cases comes in very close to the M60.

You have reminded me to take my M30 into the top secret bunker of truth and measure the lumens increase/decrease as a function of voltage/current changes and see what I can get. I have been busy doing lumens measurement of all the P7 and MC-E type lights that bigchelis has been bringing over. G
 

ElectronGuru

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Great info! Here's a bit more:

DarkZero built me a 3C Mag pushing a P7 under direct drive (no regulation). Loaded with LSD NiMH cells, the output and runtime is nothing short of amazing. The same should work here. And for 2 cell bodies, how about a surefire version of this? (also from DZ):

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2483066


In this case, just ask Gene for a regulation-free P7 M60 and throw it in an FM2C with 3 sub C's.
 
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Bullzeyebill

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Please don't make it complicated re my request. Measure current at tailcap, and the heck with some resistance issues using the probes. I would just like the number. Thanks,

Bill
 

MrGman

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_________________________________ Volts__Lumens, time
Malkoff M30,__Solarforce, AR Glass--2.82VDC--152.2--10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,__Solarforce, AR Glass--3.05VDC--160.6--10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,__Solarforce, AR Glass--3.61VDC--201.9--10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,__Solarforce, AR Glass--3.83VDC--220.0--10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,__Solarforce, AR Glass--3.95VDC--225.7--10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,__Solarforce, AR Glass--4.27VDC--255.2--10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,__Solarforce, AR Glass--4.77VDC--285.7--10 sec_______,
Malkoff M30,__Solarforce, AR Glass--4.89VDC--274.5--30 sec_______,

These are lumens readings from my custom home made integration sphere using a DC supply that has a limited set of voltage selections and a series of resistor taps to change the voltage/current within a limited range more so than what the power supply provides. The voltage drop is measured going directly to the LED. Most of the readings were within 10 seconds of turn on warm up as the output was changing. I would set a new voltage, turn off supply let the module (inside a host for heatsinking) cool down and then turn it on and let it stabilize a reading under 10 seconds. At lower voltage and power as the unit warmed up and the current draw went down, the voltage drop came up and so did the output. This was below 3.6V level. Above that as it warmed up the output would diminish. At much higher output, the output would diminish quickly. But, I could get this higher than I ever got an M60. For short pulse turn on durations using a set of 4C cells to get 4.8V range, We can get over 275 lumens, ouch. That's good. So this is just a rough idea of the range of output you can get from thes unit if you go over the 3.8V of a Lithium Ion battery. G
 
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Bullzeyebill

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MrGman, that is good info, and it shows that the voltage regulated boost M30 is a very flexable driver, the way that Gene has set it up.

Bill
 
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