24 Watt Oracle AC version battery test data

[BVH]

The latest info on AAC's website indicates replacement battery packs for the 24 Watt flashlight are 4400 mah in capacity. I assume our original AC version battery packs are supposed to be the same? The label on mine says never to charge more than 2200 mah.

I ran my light until it quit. I then made a charging pin adapter so I could charge the battery using my Schulze charger.

I'm going to make an assumption that 24 Watts are provided to the bulb. Given the typical ballast efficiency of 75% to 80%, I'm going to say that total consumption is 29 Watts or 80% efficiency.

The pack uses 3 Li Ion cells at 3.7 nominal volts each for a total nominal voltage of 11.1. Based on this, amperage draw should be in the neighborhood of 2.6 Amps. 29 Watts / 11.1 Volts = 2.6 Amps.

So I hooked up the charger, set it to charge at 1.2 AH - the rating of the 120 Volt charger wall wart and to discharge at what I thought the light actually discharges at while running - 2.5 Amps and let her go. (I could not set 2.6 Amps) Here are the results:

...........................................charge. ........discharge.....run time(discharge time)

Charge/Discharge cycle #1 - 1655 mah.......1620 mah........39' 10"

Cycle #2..........................- 1720 mah.......1660 mah.........40' 25"

Cycle #3..........................- 1660 mah.......1665 mah.........38' 57"

My light always runs for between 38.5 and 39.5 minutes without fail so I believe the 2.5 Amp discharge rate is right-on.

I would say the battery's capacity is closer to 1650 mah. If the battery were, in fact, 4400 mah, the light would probably run the 110 minutes that is stated on the website.

My Shulze always charges 3-cell Li Ion packs to 12.6 to 12.66 Volts. It would not charge this pack beyond 12.53 Volts.

Despite the short run time, I really like this light. It fits my hand well, stores in my truck in its small case and puts out a tremendous amount of 4300K light for a 24 Watt'r Mag style light.

[Patriot]

Very good info Bob,

I'm wondering if they've accidentally got the battery specs for the 35W light on the 24W light. It probably has a 4400mah battery pack.

[BVH]

Next up, I'll charge with the supplied 120 Volt charger and then do a Schulze charger discharge to see if it yields the same capacity.

[Richie086]

We had a power failure a few days ago and the 24w is one of the flashlights I used that night. I'm still getting the same runtime as posted. Nice work Bob.

As for the 35w, I assume it was a 4000mAh, but I'm not sure.

Hey Bob, if you want amazing light for your bicycle, the 24w is incredible. I installed a mount on my handlebars for it and blows away any high end bike light.

[Patriot]

Sorry for the slightly off topic question but I'd enjoy seeing a picture of the light mounted on your bike, more specifically the mount itself. Is is custom or something that you just made work?

[BVH]

Go as off topic as you want. It doesn't matter to me.

I still believe I have a defective 120 Volt charger. When plugged in and charging, the led is predominately green but with an orange flash every second. After 3 hours of charging, it had put only about 450 mah into the battery. It's marked as a "1200" ma charger so it should charge the 1650 mah battery in less than 2, 2.5 hours given charging losses.

Does anyone else's charger flash orange like mine?

[Patriot]

After 3 hours of charging, it had put only about 450 mah into the battery. It's marked as a "1200" ma charger....

Oh man! That's bad news. Sorry that you're having trouble especially since you're on your second light. Yeah, I realize this is most likely the charger but still.

[BVH]

It's just as easy to use the Triton or Schulze and probably better for the batts anyway. I don't think the cigg adapter charger is working either! Plug it in and no led or voltage at the pin - unloaded. Will try tomorrow to see if thebattery has to be in the circuit.

[Patriot]

That's a good point about the Triton charger. It's probably far better to charge the battery from that as you stated. Still, it would be nice to have a working 12V adapter for quick emergencies...you know, theoretically.

[BVH]

Yes it would. And it appears to me as though there is no logic circuitry in the battery pack housing. I believe it's in the two chargers. Took apart the 12 V and there's a logic chip in there. Plus, when discharging with the Schulze, Voltage was allowed to reach 8.3 before the charger terminated the discharge. Normal low voltage cut-off pack circuitry would have kicked in at 8.7 or above.

So I just can't go out and buy any 12 Volt cigg adapter. Oh well. We'll see tomorrow.

[Richie086]

Sorry for the slightly off topic question but I'd enjoy seeing a picture of the light mounted on your bike, more specifically the mount itself. Is is custom or something that you just made work?

Hi Patriot,

I decided to post the photos in the CPF bicycle section. I didn't want to hijack this great thread with my off-topic post. It's titled,
Husky 2D 4 watt Cree / Oracle 24W HID Bike Headlight.

[Patriot]

Thanks Richie, I just checked it out and posted a question there.

[BVH]

Finally dropped the charging rate down to about .1C to see if I could get any more capacity. Ended up putting in 1785 - highest yet but certainly no where near 2200.

Anyone pull the pack apart yet to see what cells are being used? I'd really like to do that but I don't want to spend $85 for a second pack. There's probably a better cap cell that would fit right in.

[Patriot]

It's very likely 3 x 18650/168 cells Bob, and I'm guessing that they're going to rely on a (build in the light) protection/charging circuit of some type instead of individually protected cells.

If you end up replacing them with some nice AW 18650 2600mah cells you could do away with the protection circuit and let the cells regulate themselves. Who know's what the light's circuit is allowing. It sounds to me like it's letting the cells drop too low in voltage to begin with.

[Patriot]

Another idea for even more performance would be the newest Panasonic cell. Just have a look at these specs!

http://sale.jtsgalaxy.com/ncr18650/

Even at 2-3A these things kick fanny.

On the down side they don't have a built in protection circuit but perhaps one of these could be wrapped up next to the cells somewhere:
http://search.store.yahoo.net/cgi-bi...horelinemarket



Oh, how I would love to build up a Polarion battery pack using these new Panasonic cells!

[BVH]

Well, then, I'll just have to pick me up some of those great little cells! Trying to buy some now on Ebay. I wonder if Matts PCB will allow the initial high Amp draw without cutting out? If running Amps are around 2.3 - 2.5, I would guess the instantaneous draw might be up to 6+?

[Richie086]

If the battery mod works for you, I'll end up upgrade mine too. It'll simply require a little fancy soldering work. 40 minutes runtime is not sufficient for me. But with the great color temp on this HID flashlight, it'll be a worth while modification.

[Patriot]

That's a good thought. The over current discharge protection on the 3 cell board is 6.5A so it could be close if indeed the light is pulling that much at start-up. Can you measure the load from your light?

[BVH]

I'll bet we'd get between 70 and 75 minutes of run time if they fit and work.

[Patriot]

I just remembered that you had stated there was some charging logic circuitry in the chargers themselves so please disregard what I had stated before about the pack having logic. I think what threw me off was the fact that when you were discharging with the Schulze you stated that it terminated at 8.3V. That said, one of three things terminated the discharge. Either it was the Schulze which I'm suspecting, individual battery protection circuits which usually shut down at 2.5V each or 7.5V for the pack (which I suspect less) or pack protection when seems least likely given that you say exists in the chargers. In any case 8.7 volts isn't all that low at 2.9V per cell. The battery junction circuit allows down to 7.2V pack or 2.4V per cell.

[Patriot]

I'll bet we'd get between 70 and 75 minutes of run time if they fit and work.

For sure! You'd be picking up 1200mah conservatively. How cool is that!

[BVH]

I didn't realize that circuit shutdowns were down at 2.5 per cell. So now I'm not sure where the circuitry might be for the Oracle. (Although there definitely is a chip in the 12 Volt charger. And my 120 Volt has that momentary orange led flash [from normal green]). I believe the termination of discharge was the Schulze in my tests.

I'm going to open the Oracle pack once I finish discharging it. Curiosity and eagerness to see if I can make the 2900's with a PCB work have gotten the best of me.

[BVH]

Well, I think I'll leave it in this state until I get the cells. I didn't snap shots of the welded tabs on both ends. What are the thoughts on soldering tabs on to these types of cells or fine wire as connectors? Will a quick solder do damage to the cells or should I find someone to weld on new tabs?

The PCB looks standard. Includes a balancing circuit. I guess they're not proud of their cells - no capacity stamp.

The pac was fairly dirty inside. Lots of particulates.

[Patriot]

Hey, looky there! It has its own little board and everything. It it were me I'd would just solder them myself possible using a little bit of flux for good contact. I only say this because they're "button tops" and it's only three cells. Plus I'm an optimist.

The prudent thing to do though we be to ask Lips how he'd handle it though. I believe he made his own 8 x 18650 pack for his Polarion. Lux Luthor would also know since he's built countless packs and owns a battery welder.



Hey, save those those little Chinese particles and sell them on ebay.

[BVH]

Did that right after I posted above. As many packs as he's made with his nice little CD unit, I figured he'd give me a solid answer.

[LuxLuthor]

The general/safe guidelines are never to solder to Lithium Cobalt cells. Some here (Fallingwater) have done it, and talked about it....but the problem is you don't know the condition of the internal vent after the solder heat damage has been done. The safest thing is to have tabs welded on the cells, and solder wires to those tabs.

Probably good to show closeups of both ends to see how they have cells oriented, joined, and connected to PCB. Let me know if you want me to do these for you. I'm working on some other similar scenarios for Lips.

If you want to take the chance on soldering, then using a real high heat (I set my Hakko 936 to 830°F/450°C) very briefly after fine sandpaper abrading surfaces and quality flux.

[BVH]

Lux, I'll take you up on having them tac'd. I don't like playing around with the Li Ion cells. I want it done right. When the Panasonics arrive, I'll send 3 tested cells and the original pack with PCB to you so you can copy it. If you're ok with it, you might as well re-install the PCB, paper endcaps and shrinkwrap it. THANK YOU!

(To anyone interested, I somehow ended up buying 20 cells when I intended to buy 10. They are brand new Panasonic NCR 18650 - 2900 mah. I'll be posting a sale thread over in Marketplace.)









Here's something you don't hear about everyday. My sister was bitten on the top of her foot (wearing sandals) by a Rattle Snake yesterday at the Northbound rest stop on the 101 at Gaviota Beach. She was exercising the dogs in the pet area when she felt a stabbing pain and heard a hissing sound. She got to the Solvang Hospital in about 45 minutes where they administered the anti-venom. Her entire leg and foot swelled up, she experienced numbness and tingling in many places, had some nausea, extreme fatigue and her leg and foot hurt like heck. She seems to be about the same today. Hopefully, no permanent damage.

[LuxLuthor]

That looks pretty straight forward. I'm sure they soldered to that nickle strip first, then contact welded to batteries. I have both sizes of that nickel contact stripping.

WOW, that is amazing with your sister. What a freak event....must have scared the eeebie jeeebies out of her. Sounds like she will do fine after getting the antivenom and likely other meds.

[Richie086]

(To anyone interested, I somehow ended up buying 20 cells when I intended to buy 10. They are brand new Panasonic NCR 18650 - 2900 mah. I'll be posting a sale thread over in Marketplace.)

Hey Bob,

I'm sure numerous members would be interested in purchasing the spare cells you have, especially myself. But I think we're all going to have an issue with soldering the tabs together. Any suggestions for the rest of us? Would Lux be interested in laying the ground work on the extra cells (for a modest charge of course) Then they can be shipped to the buyers.

If something can be arranged, I'd like to get on your list once you post in the Marketplace.

I also hope your sister makes a fully recovery.

[BVH]

I am just going offer them as bare cells for any type of project.