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Thread: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Duracell

  1. #31

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Just updated the main post with an additional lower output Med mode runtime on the Olight T10



    As in the case of the NiteCore EX10 Med mode, the 4sevens cells again approach the top-tier USA-made Surefire cells, and the Titanium Innovations do a little lower.

    Interesting result considering the 4sevens cells under-performed in the T10 on Max output. I've beginning to think the Titanium cells are best in high-drain applications, the 4sevens cells are best in lower-than-max applications (except for the Quark lights, when they perform well at all levels).

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    It might be useful to know, at least at initial turn-on, what the tail current draw is for each of 123A cells for each of the tests.
    Just tried a couple of samples in the T10:

    T10 Max Energizer: 1.30A
    T10 Max 4Sevens: 1.24A
    T10 Max Titanium Innovations: 1.31A

    T10 Med (L4) Energizer: 0.34A
    T10 Med (L4) 4Sevens: 0.33A
    T10 Med (L4) Titanium Innovations: 0.35A

    For Quark, initial readings fluctuated rapidly between ~1.65-1.85A on all cells, so I waited ~10 secs or so for the results to stabilize:

    Quark 123 Max Energizer: 1.74A
    Quark 123 Max 4Sevens: 1.80A
    Quarks 123 Max Titanium Innovations: 1.71A

    Quote Originally Posted by VidPro View Post
    Me wonders if some of the cells tested are the same exact manufacture, with pretty new labels on them, and different "batches" or freshnesses .
    The various USA cells fall into two discrete categories in my testing, once you account for age - a top-tier (e.g. Duracell, Surefire, Panasonic) and a second-tier (e.g. Energizer, Rayovac, Battery Station) that has just slightly less capacity. For detailed results, see my:
    Quick CR123A and AA Battery Shoot-out Comparison

    I suspect that the USA-brands do indeed reflect a limited number of manufacturing sources. But the China-brands likely come from different factories given their different runtime performances.
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Thanks for a great review. I purchased a 50 pack of the Titanium Innovation's from Battery Junction awhile back, and have been very happy with them. It was nice to see how they compare to other brands.
    Deus Vult

  3. #33
    Flashaholic* MattK's Avatar
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Sweet work Eric!

    How did I miss this before today???

  4. #34

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by MattK View Post
    How did I miss this before today???
    I thought you might be happy with the Titanium cell performance Matt.

    I meant to draw your attention to results, but frankly got distracted with new light reviews once I had these results up. The purpose of this testing was really for my own edification, as I was wondering how the other cells compared to my standard Duracell/Surefire test bed. But by posting them here, everyone can now "calibrate" their cells against my runtimes a bit better.
    Full list of all my reviews: flashlightreviews.ca. Latest hobby: whiskyanalysis.com. New: Selfbuilt's Spring 2018 Sale
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  5. #35

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Awesome stuff.
    Keep up the good works

  6. #36

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Which company makes 4Sevens batteries for them?

  7. #37
    Flashaholic smopoim86's Avatar
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    Which company makes 4Sevens batteries for them?
    Unknown... I'm pretty sure David said he could loose the supplier if the manufacturer was known.

    Seems a little odd, but I trust David's quality standards.

  8. #38

    Rolleye11 Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    I think i'll buy a Titanium or a surefire cr123a for my fenix PD30+. Does anyone know if they are protected or not ? and wich is the best (not about runtime but about quality meaning no errors, or things go wrong) ! And wich is the best brand for rechargeble batteries ? and do rechargeble batteries lose there energy when the flashlights is turned off or while there just not in the flashlight ?
    Thanx !!

  9. #39
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by smopoim86 View Post
    Unknown... I'm pretty sure David said he could loose the supplier if the manufacturer was known.

    Seems a little odd, but I trust David's quality standards.
    We sampled every major lithium manufacturer in the area and found most of
    them to be utterly inferior. I personally tested each source.

    When we found this particular vendor we really had
    to pull some teeth to get them to do it for us
    The performance was just stellar compared to others, plus
    most of the others didn't even offer to install a PTC - which
    we instantly turned down.

    I just hope they continue to work with us when we need the next batch

  10. #40
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    I have up until this point been buying SF 123s for my lights, and because I don't go through them that fast, it has been fine, despite their higher cost. I have had zero problems with them.

    Since 47s came out with their cells, I have been considering buying a big bulk pack from them so I'm set for a while. This will be a savings of about $1 per cell over the SF cells I buy. And for my purposes, their performance in this shootout is certainly adequate. Seems like a no brainer.

    My only question is: is there any concern over the safety of these cells, as they are made in China? In the past, I remember reading here about some foreign cells being poorly made and venting or popping. I'm pretty confident 47s would not have purchased crappy cells like that, based on my excellent experiences with his business in the past. But I am not a battery expert, so I thought I'd ask.

    Thanks for all your hard work, Selfbuilt, these tests are very helpful
    Last edited by nbp; 11-05-2009 at 11:42 PM.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    I have up until this point been buying SF 123s for my lights, and because I don't go through them that fast, it has been fine, despite their higher cost. I have had zero problems with them.

    Since 47s came out with their cells, I have been considering buying a big bulk pack from them so I'm set for a while. This will be a savings of about $1 per cell over the SF cells I buy. And for my purposes, their performance in this shootout is certainly adequate. Seems like a no brainer.

    My only question is: is there any concern over the safety of these cells, as they are made in China? In the past, I remember reading here about some foreign cells being poorly made and venting or popping. I'm pretty confident 47s would not have purchased crappy cells like that, based on my excellent experiences with his business in the past. But I am not a battery expert, so I thought I'd ask.

    Thanks for all your hard work, Selfbuilt, these tests are very helpful
    +1 I'm also curious. Thanks.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Thoughts on my question above? Anyone?

  13. #43
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    I've seen individual reports (On the Lightfighter Forum) on Chinese made "Power Rite", "Ultralast", and "WF" batteries venting/exploding/failing.
    I don't have any info on 47's batteries, though.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Still curious about the safety of the 4-7s cells compared to the premium 'made
    in America' cells. I've been holding off on buying them. Anyone?

  15. #45
    Flashaholic* 4sevens's Avatar
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    Still curious about the safety of the 4-7s cells compared to the premium 'made
    in America' cells. I've been holding off on buying them. Anyone?
    What specifically are you looking for? All our a cells are fitted with a PTC device that will acts like a fuse should a short take place. They are only found on quality safety-conscious cells since they are a significant part of the cost of the cell. I can tell you that most china cells do not have them. I've disassembled quite a few in my own investigation.

  16. #46
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    4sevens would not put his name on a poor product with safety issues, that's my opinion. I have been using some 7777 cells and they seem to perform pretty much the same as pricier USA branded cells.

    The bottom line is, would 4sevens put his reputation at risk? Definately not

  17. #47
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by 4sevens View Post
    What specifically are you looking for? All our a cells are fitted with a PTC device that will acts like a fuse should a short take place. They are only found on quality safety-conscious cells since they are a significant part of the cost of the cell. I can tell you that most china cells do not have them. I've disassembled quite a few in my own investigation.
    As I noted in my first post #40, I just have read quite a number of CR123 venting/explosion incidents in the 'smoke and fire' section. And many of these incidents involved cheaper foreign made cells. I have been purchasing Surefire cells up until now as they are highly regarded. I am interested in buying a bulk pack of 4/7s 123s though, due to the better price and my desire to support you guys, as my experiences with you have been excellent in the past.

    Granted, I am not an expert on battery construction and manufacturing, but my question, which you partly answered, basically is: have the issues, whatever they may have been, that caused so many problems in Chinese made batteries in the past been corrected in the manufacturing of these batteries?

    Like I said, based on the good service I have received from Fenixstore/4sevens, I sincerely doubt you'd be selling crappy cells, but I was just curious about their dependability.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by smopoim86 View Post
    Unknown... I'm pretty sure David said he could loose the supplier if the manufacturer was known.
    Why would 47 loose the supplier if the manufacturer was known?

    I am not a business person. So, can someone enlighten me what kind of business protocol this is?
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  19. #49
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    There are many reasons an OEM may not want it made public who they make batteries for. I think in this kind of situation a company will agree on a unit price from the OEM and get batteries made. This agreed price may not necessarily be the same as what the OEM charges other customers! Therefore if the cat got out of the bag and Company A found out that ChinaBatteryCo made batteries for Company B - and saw Company B sold batteries much more cheaply than A - then they might go to the OEM and complain about the pricing they are paying.

    This is one possibility. The other is that public knowledge of who makes what will affect purchasing decisions.

  20. #50

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    How do Streamlight batteries compare to the rest? Who actually makes them?

  21. #51
    Flashaholic* MattK's Avatar
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Streamlight CR123A's are made by Panasonic.

  22. #52

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by 4sevens View Post
    ... All our a cells are fitted with a PTC device that will acts like a fuse should a short take place. They are only found on quality safety-conscious cells since they are a significant part of the cost of the cell. I can tell you that most china cells do not have them. I've disassembled quite a few in my own investigation.
    PTC?
    Protect The Circuit?
    Protective Thermo-Couple?
    Prevents Thermal Combustion?

  23. #53
    Flashaholic* MattK's Avatar
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    PTC = positive temperature coefficient.

    A thermister or thermal fuse. A self resetting thermal fuse/over-temperature protection device.

    They look like a washer. They deform at a 'set' temperature cutting off current flow until the temperature drops below the set point when they regain their shape and current flow resumes.

    Here's a pic: http://www.tcem.com.cn/images/PTC/Battery_Caps.jpg

    Here's a pic of one that failed: http://www.molalla.net/members/leeper/ptc4.jpg

  24. #54

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Thanks Matt, I appreciate the information!

  25. #55
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    This is a fantastic thread. SUPER great job!

    Looks like I'll stick with the Surefires from now on All of my lights are now turning into being 123 lights, since I also use the battery size for my 2 Eotechs. I try to keep at least 20 of them on hand at all times.
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  26. #56
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by MattK View Post
    They look like a washer. They deform at a 'set' temperature cutting off current flow until the temperature drops below the set point when they regain their shape and current flow resumes.
    Matt - actually your statement is incorrect. PTC's do not "cut off current flow."

    Rather behave like resistors where their resistance increases gradually with temperature over a limited range - typically the resistance is linearly proportional to temperature - hence the coefficient in PTC.

    Keep in mind that there is a limited number of cycles that the PTC will operate, don't don't mess around with shorting your cells.

    I've personally done extensive testing of the PTC on our 4Sevens cells (as well as all the major brands). We use an epoxy-carbon material that triggers around 100-130C. We did our homework before we put our name on those cells

    Quote Originally Posted by MattK View Post
    Streamlight CR123A's are made by Panasonic.
    Not all. I've disassembled some and discovered otherwise.

  27. #57
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Quote Originally Posted by selfbuilt View Post
    Reviewer’s Note: Following up my initial CR123A/AA Battery Shoot-out, here I provide a more detailed comparison of how three of the more popular made-in-China cells (4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, and Tenergy) compare to the top-of-the-line USA cells that I routinely use (Duracell & Surefire).

    I thought 4Sevens cells are made in USA (re-branded Panasonic)?

  28. #58
    Flashaholic* tre's Avatar
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    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    MattK, I know you spent some $$ to make your cells great (and UL approved). Do you have a PTC on the Titanium Innovations cells?

  29. #59

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    Written by MattK on 12-19-2010 08:39 PM GMT

    Quote Originally Posted by tre
    MattK, I know you spent some $$ to make your cells great (and UL approved). Do you have a PTC on the Titanium Innovations cells?
    Absolutely - yes that's essential for us and not a corner we'd ever consider cutting! Absolutely - yes that's essential for us and not a corner we'd ever consider cutting!
    Written by megawatt on 12-22-2010 09:17 PM GMT

    I have about 40 orange labeled Titanium cr123a batteries that I received in Jnauary of 2007 to keep for long term storage in case of another hurricane or other disaster. Every one of these unused batteries I tried in my Surefire L4 has become weak and unusable in the L4. Long term shelf life is not good.
    Written by megawatt on 12-23-2010 05:22 PM GMT

    Quote Originally Posted by megawatt
    I have about 40 orange labeled Titanium cr123a batteries that I received in Jnauary of 2007 to keep for long term storage in case of another hurricane or other disaster. Every one of these unused batteries I tried in my Surefire L4 has become weak and unusable in the L4. Long term shelf life is not good.
    UPDATE: I received an email from MattK at Battery Junction reminding me that the CR123A batteries could form a passivization layer causing them to appear to go dim. As instructed by Matt, I put the batteries in the light and turned it on. Matt said the batteries would come back to life by doing so. After 2 to 3 minutes the light started to flicker like a strobe light from a slow flicker at first then gradually to a very fast flicker then actually coming back to full brightness. I have never heard of this "passivization" before so I learned something today. UPDATE: I received an email from MattK at Battery Junction reminding me that the CR123A batteries could form a passivization layer causing them to appear to go dim. As instructed by Matt, I put the batteries in the light and turned it on. Matt said the batteries would come back to life by doing so. After 2 to 3 minutes the light started to flicker like a strobe light from a slow flicker at first then gradually to a very fast flicker then actually coming back to full brightness. I have never heard of this "passivization" before so I learned something today.

    Thank you Matt k for the information on fixing the problem and the excellent service waaay after the sale.
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  30. #60

    Default Re: CR123A Comparison Review: 4Sevens, Titanium Innovations, Tenergy, Surefire, Durac

    The thread discussions have been partially restored from the search engine cache data (thank you tandem!).

    Unfortunately, I could only track down search engine cache data for the original p.3 (i.e. Dec 19, 2010 onward). Anything posted between Nov 2010 and that date has been lost. If you happen to have cache data in that time period, please let me know and I will re-post.

    Please carry on!
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