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Thread: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

    This thread presents the graphs done by Ictorana using the Excel results of my destructive incan bulb testing thread here.

    His graphs give a whole other appreciation and ability to compare the raw data. Again, Ictorana did all the work, and deserves full recognition of these graphs (additions are noted in subject title).

    Full size images are 1075 x 750, allowing you to easily read legend and match up to graph lines. Each category of bulbs has a row of 6 thumbs, following the same order of data presentations for all bulb categories.

    ================================================== ==========================


    Category One - All 6 Volt Bulbs (20 bulbs per graph)

    ..... I vs V ...............L vs V ........... L vs % OD ........... L vs I ............... L vs P ............ Eff vs V

    .. .. .. .. ..
    ================================================== ==========================


    Category Two - Medium Power 6 Volt Bulbs (13 bulbs per graph)

    ..... I vs V ...............L vs V ........... L vs % OD ........... L vs I ............... L vs P ............ Eff vs V

    .. .. .. .. ..
    ================================================== ==========================


    Category Three - PR Bulbs (5 bulbs per graph)

    ..... I vs V ...............L vs V ........... L vs % OD ........... L vs I ............... L vs P ............ Eff vs V

    .. .. .. .. ..
    ================================================== ==========================


    Category Four - 9 Volt Bulbs (13 bulbs per graph)

    ..... I vs V ...............L vs V ........... L vs % OD ........... L vs I ............... L vs P ............ Eff vs V

    .. .. .. .. ..
    ================================================== ==========================


    Category Five - 12 Volt Bulbs (15 bulbs per graph)

    ..... I vs V ...............L vs V ........... L vs % OD ........... L vs I ............... L vs P ............ Eff vs V

    .. .. .. .. ..
    ================================================== ==========================


    Category Six - 24 Volt Bulbs (3 bulbs per graph + couple 12V in some)

    ..... I vs V ...............L vs V ........... L vs % OD ........... L vs I ............... L vs P ............ Eff vs V

    .. .... .. ..
    ================================================== ==========================
    ================================================== ==========================


    .
    Last edited by LuxLuthor; 09-20-2009 at 04:42 AM.

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs

    reserved....table for two, non-smoking section

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs

    Superb! These graphs provide at-a-glance comparisons of the popular hotwire bulbs. Fascinating information, clearly displayed and very easy to understand.

    This is a hugely valuable resource for CPF - congratulations and many thanks to both of you!

    I have added this thread to the incan forum's Threads of Interest sticky.
    Resistance is futile...

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs



    And I'm just getting into Osrams, so the timing couldn't be better!
    Last edited by ElectronGuru; 06-28-2009 at 07:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-11-09)

    Many thanks again to Ictorana who has done a bunch more categories of bulbs and which are now posted. Refresh your browser if looking at the 12V bulbs, as this is a new replacement set of images.

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    Flashaholic* petrev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-11-09)

    Thanks Guys

    Super work

    One thing can you include the 64633 (nominal 15V) in the 12V bulbs graphs as it fits in very well (15-18V within the 12-23V graph range) even though it is at a higher 11-12A range and higher Lux.

    Similarly the 5761 seems like a logical inclusion in the Std. (Cat2) 6V bulbs graph even though it is higher Current and Lux.

    Cheers
    Pete

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-11-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by petrev View Post
    Thanks Guys

    Super work

    One thing can you include the 64633 (nominal 15V) in the 12V bulbs graphs as it fits in very well (15-18V within the 12-23V graph range) even though it is at a higher 11-12A range and higher Lux.

    Similarly the 5761 seems like a logical inclusion in the Std. (Cat2) 6V bulbs graph even though it is higher Current and Lux.

    Cheers
    Pete
    Excellent points.

    I left the suggestions at the altar of the statistical and graphing wizard, and humbly beseeched his kind consideration and forbearance appertaining thereunto.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-11-09)

    Love this stuff. The original http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=179748 thread kept me enthralled for quite awhile and I have to admit I still go back to it a lot. Now this puts a whole new spin on things. You guyz put the "eek" in "geek" and that is a compliment in my book.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    The master sent me the 24V bulbs which I just posted. Half of the graphs have a few other 12 & 15V bulbs included.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Why is it that the 64430 bulb draws almost double the current of the 3854H, but doesn't seem to really be any brighter at the same voltages?
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnir View Post
    Why is it that the 64430 bulb draws almost double the current of the 3854H, but doesn't seem to really be any brighter at the same voltages?
    It is an excellent question, and shows you are thinking and questioning.

    The manufacturer specifications in design are different (keep in mind there are 3 models of 64430--so I'm picking the Tungsram):


    • 64430 - 6V - 35W - 2,000 Hrs Life - More tolerant of voltage overdrive, more durable.



    • 3854H - 6V - 24W - ? Life (Never found out, but much shorter) - Less tolerant of voltage overdrive, more delicate.


    I just took this closeup showing the difference in thickness of filaments. I believe the answer is the combination of specific tungsten alloy(s), thickness, & length of filament & supporting metal structures, and the composition of the compressed gas in bulb envelope.
    Last edited by LuxLuthor; 08-01-2009 at 09:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Looking at the 64430's element design, would this give a better more focused beam than the 3854H bulb?

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by cernobila View Post
    Looking at the 64430's element design, would this give a better more focused beam than the 3854H bulb?
    I know it seems like that should be a simple/obvious answer, and while in general axial filaments like the 64430 look better than transverse ones like the 3854, it also depends on the filament thickness, envelope shape/glass purety, and reflector used. There is even a difference between the three 64430 models.

    I would have to do a side by side with similar reflectors to answer you definitively, because the smaller 3854 filament and envelope shape may help its appearance vs. the larger but axial 64430.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    I believe the answer is the combination of specific tungsten alloy(s), thickness, & length of filament & supporting metal structures, and the composition of the compressed gas in bulb envelope.
    Great discussion. Reminds me of 1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton trucks. The bigger ones are more durable and handle bigger loads but also have worse gas mileage.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    I would think that a bulb with a longer life would draw fewer amps, so less energy is being wasted, which has to be dissipated somewhere. However, this seems to be the opposite.
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnir View Post
    I would think that a bulb with a longer life would draw fewer amps, so less energy is being wasted, which has to be dissipated somewhere. However, this seems to be the opposite.
    Yeah, again a good and logical thought. However the thicker 64430 filament which has more metal & requires more current flowing through it to heat it up to a particular lumen output, has it be durable and tolerant of abuse--like ElectronGuru's 3/4 ton truck example.

    Another example of this is the 30W 6V Philips 5761 bulb which has truly spectacular output at ideal voltage demonstrated in Ictorana's graph here. However, it is also very delicate with a life of only 100 hrs, and a limited overdrive tolerance. With AlanB/JimmyM/wquiles new regulators, this can again become a leading bulb for practical use.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Just want to announce a delay to the progress of my new bespoke hotrater.

    Having had five hard-disk crashes in the last month, I am having a hard time rebuilding my PC, so work has stopped at least until I can install Excel. Install anything, for that matter. Something is badly wrong. But at least all data is backed up and safe, so no work has been lost.

    That said, I assure you the hotrater will be worth the wait.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by lctorana View Post
    Just want to announce a delay to the progress of my new bespoke hotrater.

    Having had five hard-disk crashes in the last month, I am having a hard time rebuilding my PC, so work has stopped at least until I can install Excel. Install anything, for that matter. Something is badly wrong. But at least all data is backed up and safe, so no work has been lost.

    That said, I assure you the hotrater will be worth the wait.
    Five HD crashes in a month? That seems statistically impossible even if they are all the same models, they came off the same assembly line on the same day. Sounds more like a power supply, cable, RAM or mobo issue. Good luck

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    The last time I had multiple crashes like that, it was the HD controller.

    BTW - thanks for all of the interesting work.
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Sorry to go OT, but the HD controller is a motherboard compenent, yes? Has to be - the SATA and IDE sockets are on the MB. Basically, I must need a new motherboard. Groan.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by lctorana View Post
    Sorry to go OT, but the HD controller is a motherboard compenent, yes? Has to be - the SATA and IDE sockets are on the MB. Basically, I must need a new motherboard. Groan.
    Not necessarily...

    $12.99 might fix you up if you have a spare PCI-e slot.

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16815280009
    What are your rights and your life worth to you?

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

    Ictorana has given updated graphs for recently tested bulbs. Many thanks for all his work in this thread. Some feedback would be great if you get a chance.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    Ictorana has given updated graphs for recently tested bulbs. Many thanks for all his work in this thread. Some feedback would be great if you get a chance.
    Thanks indeed for all the hard work by you originally and now Ictorana.

    If we can get the IvsV, LvsV and PvsV versions of 24V graphs replotted to include the 633, 458 and 623 like the others have been, that would be great.

    Overall


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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    updated graphs for recently tested bulbs... Many thanks for all his work in this thread. Some feedback would be great if you get a chance.
    I agree 100% - MANY thanks indeed. This is a great thread. It's already a sticky in the "Threads of Interest" thread, but I'm also now sticking it independently for a while, as I think there are quite a few members who may not yet have seen how valuable it really is.
    Resistance is futile...

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

    Thanks for the great charts graphs and links on this thread. I have this bookmarked and go to it literally 10 times a day to figure out how build ideas will work.

    The graphs done by Ictorana based on your data are excellent.

    You can visually see the strengths and weaknesses and flexibilities ( or lack) of the various bulbs in an intuitive way.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Databyter; 10-10-2009 at 03:48 AM.
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    Thumbs up Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

    Very informative. I keep comming back here.
    Thank you for going to the trouble.
    Billy

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    Quote Originally Posted by ElectronGuru View Post
    Great discussion. Reminds me of 1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton trucks. The bigger ones are more durable and handle bigger loads but also have worse gas mileage.
    I wandered around for several hours this morning, and after registering, I found that I wanted to change stuff. It took me awhile to figure out how to get back to my profile and preferences, and actually meant having to put in my name and password again. I'm also finally figuring out how to use the View New Messages thing. And best of all, we are here!

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 7-16-09)

    has anyone done any testing like this with stock mag bulbs? I'm mainly interested in how much you can over drive the stock bulbs. IE would a 2C bulb handle a freshly charged 18650? or would a 4C handle 2 18650?

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

    Slappo, I almost decided to test all the various stock bulbs, but given that their overdrive output & voltage tolerance is so much more limited, it didn't seem worth the trouble and expense. I don't think anyone else has done it--to answer your question.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Tests - Graphs (Updated 9-20-09)

    Been awhile since a post i see , but this is one interesting and informative thread for sure
    I've seen em!

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