Looking for an oddball; probably custom?

[McGizmo]

Hi guys,

I am looking for a solution that may or may not exist out there but I figure among this collective, you guys would know. I am looking for a small blade, possibly a folder, that is impervious to unfriendly environments, namely the ocean. I need to be able to clip it to my swim trunks without it getting in the way and forget about it. I have no pockets and a strap on dive knife is overkill.


A little background that you can ignore:
A number of us try to police the reef and remove fishing tackle that has broken clear from the rod and reel and left abandoned. I have a number of knives and cutters I can take out there with me but I am looking for something small and unobtrusive that I have on me at all times and something I don't have to worry about maintaining. A couple days ago, I came across about 30 yards of fresh monofiliment that had snagged and broken free in such a manner that it was strung tight like a trip line between two coral heads. I was able to break the inshore end free with some serious tugging but the hook at the other end held fast and I couldn't break the line. A young snorkeler could have dove down and swam along above the reef and possibly got hung up in the line! It was definitely a danger to turtles which is my main concern but this represented a threat to people, IMHO. I wound the line up on one hand as I swam towards the hooked end and when it was time to surface, I had a moments scare when the line on my hand didn't slip off freely! Duh! I needed a knife or some type of clippers and didn't have anything on me.

The solution I presently came up with is a Boker Ti folder that I drilled and tapped and mounted one of my Ti belt clips on. This little knife now with clip is about perfect but I have concerns as to how long it will hold up. It will jump to a magnet in a different county so I anticipate corrosion. The blade is ceramic and sides are Ti which are ideal for the environment and application but there is more to it and the more is where the problem lies.

Probably some type of credit card knife or other small utility blade will serve me well but method of carry and inert components are critical. This blade will not be used often and the edge doesn't need to hold up to constant use nor does it need to cut paper falling across it if you know what I mean.

Any ideas or sugestions?

Thanks!!

[cave dave]

Choose any one of the models in the Spyderco Salt series.

There is a thread over on blade forums where the OP tried as hard as he could to make it rust, bleach, lemon juice salt water you name it.

Maybe not quite super exotic titanium but hence they are quite affordable. I should be getting my first one in about a week, I just ordered the Salt I off ebay for a great price.

Go to the Spyderco home page and search on "SALT" or select by blade material "H-1" to read about them. Then find a good on-line merchant and the price will be about 60% of MSRP.

http://www.spiderco.com/catalog/list...-1&per_page=19

[cave dave]

Here is one of the threads I was thinking about:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=344293

You won't need to add a Ti clip because a while back somebody was able to make the clip rust so Sal at Spyderco switched the clip material to Titanium. The pivots and pins are all rustproof as well.

This is a knife you will want to use often. An interesting property of the H1 is the more you use it and sharpen it the better it holds an edge.

[McGizmo]

Thanks Dave. I have one of the Salt fixed blade knives and it has some surface bloom on it but strictly cosmetic I suspect. I also have an Atlantic Salt but it's much larger than what I had in mind here. I just looked at their site and the Lady Bug looks about like what I was after. I might be able to install a clip on it and if not, I can work with the lanyard hole. The one thing that bothers me though is lack of specific comment on the other metals, beyond the blade itself. All the metal on the Atlantic Salt appears to be magnetic and I doubt it's all H1 but what do I know.

I checked you link on BF. If people want to do a salt corrosion test, submersion in saltwater isn't that revealing. The way to really put something to the test is in salt spray and elevate the temperature if you want to accelerate the effect.

Thanks again!

[jch79]

Don,
I don't know much about knives, but I just did a bit of research, and people speak very highly of Mission Knives (made in California). They make a small (3" blade), called the MPF3-Ti from 100% Titanium (blade, handles, screws, pins, studs, and clip), which happens to be on sale on their website (although it still isn't cheap!). They also make bigger folders and fixed blades too.
I'm surprised you're not making your own!
Please let us know what you settle with!
john

[dom]

I like the idea of a hook knife -if you'll only be using it for lines.

Safe and quicker than any thing else.Plastic and SS -nothing expensive or fancy metals though!

Example
http://www.flyfirebird.com/catalog/p...roducts_id/261

Cheers
Dom

[McGizmo]

jch79,
Thanks. I didn't realize they finally came out with a smaller knife. I have their larger folder and a fixed blade as well. I recall a number of years ago that they said they were working on a smaller folder but I lost track of following up. Cool. I have been meaning to get another of their folders and this smaller one looks like a good call. The blade may not compete with other knives but these knives definitely hold up well in the environment and neglect I subject them to! It's still significantly larger than what I have in mind here but it would certainly do the job. Too bad they don't do a baby version!

Dom,

I was thinking somewhat along those lines with an idea of using a carbide insert in a custom rig that had a similar inlet for the line with the carbide at the root of the channel. I figured I could grind the carbide insert to an edge sharp enough to cut the line and it would be protected from accidental contact. I would guess that the stainless steel blades in that device would ultimately succumb to the salt exposure but maybe not. For strictly cutting fishing line, I agree, that device would be hard to beat!! Thanks.

[McGizmo]

A sign of my ignorance of knives and their discussion on CPF is evident in what I just realized as my placing this thread in probably the wrong forum.

Well at any rate the good suggestions you guys are offering make me think I should have placed this in the knife forum.

[Torpedo Vegas]

I like the idea of a hook knife -if you'll only be using it for lines.

Safe and quicker than any thing else.Plastic and SS -nothing expensive or fancy metals though!

Dom

Benchmade also makes one. It looks to have a bigger opening then the example you posted and is also a one piece construction to prevent failure.

http://www.benchmade.com/products/pr...l.aspx?model=7

Make sure you get the H2O model though. It is made of SS called X15-T.N and here is the description from their site

X15 T.N: This French steel was developed for the aircraft industry for jet ball bearings, as well as the medical industry for scalpels. It has the ability to resist rust in the worst of conditions while maintaining ample edge retention. The capability behind this steel is in the way it is manufactured, resulting in the finest steel for use in harsh environments such as salt water. The edge on an X15 T.N blade is easier to maintain.

[McGizmo]

Torpedo Vegas,

That does look like an excellent tool! Thank you.

[Dizos]

Check out Boye Knives. The dendritic cobalt blades do not corrode.

Boye Knives

[McGizmo]

Thanks. The Boye have been suggested to me before and I have no doubt the blade will hold up and I like the Ti marlin spike too. But the component breakdown shows some key components being of 304 stainless which many don't believe should be taken to sea and for reasons I have come to agree with. IMHO, 304 is great in fresh water and the kitchen. It needs to be baby sat at the beach or out on the ocean. I am lazy and neglectful but I am willing to pay the price for this if given options.

[chipwillis]

Tom Mayo makes custom knives from Titanium and Stellite. He's from you neck of the woods.

http://mayoknives.com/

[HoopleHead]

Emerson Titanium LaGriffe

Spderco Ladybug Salt - Was the first thing that sprang to mind. Great cutter and cheap enough to buy a few and keep as backups.

Warren Thomas makes some carbon fiber or G-10 handled knives with Ti blades and carbide edges.

May some kind of pen knife that has a waterproof cap?

I bet someone at BF or USN could whip something up for you in trade

[TKC]

Don, I would suggest getting a Tom Mayo Covert. It will not rust. I swim with mine. It is my beach knife!! Get a Mayo if you can!! I HIGHLY recommend this knife! If you want to go the production route, then I would suggest something from the Spyderco Salt Series, or a Boye Boat Knife.

[carrot]

The Spyderco Salt 1 should be an excellent choice. It is smaller than the Salt you have, 100% impervious to rust, and comes in a lovely yellow color. Serrations too, if you prefer them. It is bigger than the Ladybug which is positively miniscule.

[McGizmo]

Thanks everybody!! Since starting this thread, I have continued to carry the tiny Boker that I mounted a clip on and have used it once to cut away some fishing line. It served well.

I have purchased one of the Benchmade "7 Hooks" suggested by Torpedo Vegas as I can see where it would be the ideal tool in a number of possible situations I have encountered in the past. Twice now I have gone out with the intention of cutting some fishing line free from turtles and the 7 Hook would be unlikely to harm the turtle should it move at a bad time and I would be comfortable getting the tool in close to the target without fear of possibly stabbing or cutting the turtle! I can also invision it being a tool one would be willing to use on oneself whould the get tangled in up in tethers or gear in a bad situation.

I also purchased one of the Mission MPF3-Ti folders because I am more than happy with the MPF1-Ti I have but it is larger than I need and bulky. This is a knife I know from first hand experience that can be neglected and just placed anywhere for possible future use.

I do think the Spyderco LadyBug Salt would serve well also and if the Boker goes south on me, I will get one of them. Who am I kidding? I'll probably get one or two anyway! I have friends who also patrol the reef and are in need of decent tools....

My next step is to see if I can figure out a reasonably clean method of fastening one of these cutting tools to one of my swim fins. That way it wouldn't be poking me in the waist and it would be there if I needed it. As an aside, it would be cool to design gear that served as host to typically needed tools in addition to its primary function. I suspect that somebody will approach equipment in such a fashion one of these days and it will open a whole new vista in terms of utility and convenience.

[HoopleHead]

From another thread on USN:

"Boye Dendritic Cobalt is a super-performing, non-rusting cobalt-based alloy that excels on tough fibers such as hi-tech rigging line, deck line, and net. Not a steel, it is a mixture of cobalt, chrome, nickel, tungsten, silicon, iron, and carbon. It cuts aggressively and keeps cutting. It is completely impervious to seawater corrosion, and is non-magnetizable. Each Boye blade is permeated by a dense, branching, "dendritic" network of hard carbide crystals (see photo at right). At the cutting edge, these carbide crystals produce micro-serrations, which can be felt with the fingertip and heard when the knife slices through rope. The crystals help the edge keep its shape and integrity over time (i.e. exceptional edge-holding) and enhance its penetrating power, for deep cutting action. Each sharpening exposes a fresh set of hard carbide micro-teeth."

[cave dave]

The Ladybug is pretty darn tiny. I don't have one but I do have the larger dragonfly and the Dragonfly is considerably harder to open one handed than the mid-size models like the Salt 1 or Saver Salt.

Something to consider if you are underwater holding your breath and trying to cut yourself free.

[RyanA]

+1 on the H-1. I have a Salt 1. It's a great knife, low maintenance. I just saw the H-1 ladybug on the Spyderco site. Looks pretty nice. I think H-1 is just about as good as it gets right now for edge retention and corrosion resistance. Although I've never gotten around to the ceramic and dendritic cobalt knives.

I was going to mention I saw adds for a new program, I think on animal planet. I can't remember the name but in the adds there was some good video of a Triton in action. I remember we spoke about this a while ago but I could never find decent quality video of the Triton doing the deed. I thought you might be interested. I was going to post in the photo thread, but since I'm already here. Anyways, good luck Don!

[McGizmo]

Thanks again guys! There definitely seems to be some great metals now coming out for both holding an edge as well as being impervious to corrosive environments! I really like the simplicity and safety of the Benchmade 7 hook and I came up with a funky but serviceable means of having one with me out there at all times.





I stitched some webbing directly to the fin and then fastened a custom delirin bobbin/ snap in such a position that the hook's loop is retained by the overlap of the bobbin that flares at the top. The webbing snaps down over the bobbin for added security. No doubt the water flow is disturbed by this addition but not that I can sense or feel when kicking. I also shoved a short NITINOL probe that has a Ti Ball on one end in the scabbard.

I mentioned that I also purchased a Mission MPF-3 knife because I know from experience that they require absoluty zero maintenance and they are made from a metal that is near and dear to me!

On the invoice, I was charged for the UPS freight which corresponded with my web order but the package was actually shipped via USPS which is much better, price wise. I contacted Mission regarding the good news/ bad news (good that they went with a much more reasonable shipping service but bad that my invoice wasn't updated accordingly).

I received a very nice e-mail from them and they offered to send me a sharpener to compensate for the disparity. They also requested any pictures I might be able to provide them of me using the knife. Well self portrait while using a knife, especially in the environment I would likely use it isn't a trivial or staged proposition! I figured I'd take some UW shots of the knife and maybe that would be something different at least. At home in a hostile environment...



When I am swimming with the big camera, the added drag of a knife and light on my waist is negligible. Today I took the knife out again and I came across one of the Hawksbill turtles, "Rocket Girl" and she was feeding on a weed/ plant that I had never seen them eat before. The stem or trunk on these plants is really stiff and sturdy. I actually had call to use the knife as I wanted to see how the turtle would respond to an offering of its present food choice.





I think she recognized what I was holding in my hand but she made no direct or quick move for it. She may have been processing the situation but I can't hold my breath like she can so I dropped it down in front of her and went to the surface. She did go for it and ate it.



I ended up serving her a couple of the plants.

The 7 hook might have worked for cutting this plant but I was actually glad I had the knife at the time. Any tool even remotely suited for the task is better than no tool at all. I go out there often completely unarmed and now at least I will have the 7 hook and probably carry a knife as well.

RyanA, I have seen some good footage of a Triton nailing a Crown of Thorns. I have not come across another Triton out here and doubt I will. I do see a COT rather often but only one when I do see them so nothing to be concerned about.

Cave Dave,

Good point about the merits of a larger and easier to grasp knife in an emergency. In the case of line or tether fouling though, I think the 7 hook would be much safer and easier to work with. A ladybug or the little Boker Ceramic folder would be infinitely better than nothing though!!

[cave dave]

Hey Don,

I think when they said they wanted action pics of the knife they meant attached to those bikini clad girls you sometimes take pics of your lights with.

[McGizmo]

Dave,
I won't go there but I'll send you off in another direction. Do you realize the trouble one could cause with one of those model 7 hooks from benchmade on a beach populated with string bikini clad gals!

[ErickThakrar]

Hmm. You've inspired me to design something, McGizmo. I'll have to try a few things.

[McGizmo]

Hi guys,
A bit of an update. I have been wearing he Mission MPF-3 on my waist and the hook7 is stored on my fin. I have been getting in the ocean almost daily.

I tried the hook7 on a piece of 1/8" spectra to confirm that it could cut it when I first got the tool and that is all it has been used on; one piece of line.

I took the hook out of the integrated fin sheath today and was surprised at what I think I am seeing:





I suppose I should take it out and look at it under the microscope and remove the discoloration. These two shots were taken underwater which explains the strange lighting.

The Mission Ti knife has been used to cut some algae which has been no real test for it but it looks the same now as it did the first day I got it and I know I can count on it not changing or corroding....

[moeman]

WOW, i am really dissapointed in seeing that happen.

Hey, Don if i sent you one of my Spyderco Salt knives to EDC would you? I am curious to see how it would hold up.

[McGizmo]

Hi Moeman,
Thanks for the offer but I have a couple of the Salt knives already. One is mounted on one of my SurfSkis (sit on top kayak). It has been attached, in its plastic scabbard, to a deck bag now for over a year and possibly two years. Please understand that I don't do anything about cleaning it or rinsing it beyond rain that hits it.







I recall looking at it a while back and seeing some surface bloom but I just took it out to look at and possibly photograph a few minutes ago and I felt it was worthy of photographing as opposed to just commenting on.

I have no doubt it is a good knife and with any reasonable care and maintenance, it probably wouldn't look like it does. I haven't tried to clean it off or look at it under a scope to see what damage it may have suffered. I think at this point, there is evidence of some corrosion that goes beyond just the surface.

If someone accused me of not taking proper care of this knife, I would plead no contest. On the other hand, claims of no corrosion need to be qualified to some extent I would think?!? I have some Ti tools that have been left to the elements for much longer than this knife and they have not corroded at all.

In fairness, I am going to take a quick break and see what some scotch brite will do to this knife....

OK, most of the bloom came off but it looks like there are some pits which actually were evident as dark spots prior to a scrub. The edge seems to be in good shape and most of the areas showing corrosion are in the blank surfaces where there has been no grinding. Considering the neglect, I think the knife has held up well. I wonder if scuffing it with the 3M abrasive will have any effect on future corrosion resistance. I don't recall ever using this knife, unlike the 7hook which shows bloom where I made the single cut through some spectra.

It is going back on the surfski.

[greenLED]

Remind me not to let Don borrow my knives...

[moeman]

That is incredible. I am going to have to stop saying they are rust proof...



thanks for the pictures Don.

[BugOutGear_USA]

Maybe they mean the handles are rust proof...