Surefire G2 & 12 Gauge Recoil

I have been searching, and there is a lot of speculation on the subject, but not a lot of actual experience.

Obviously, an LED is more solid. But I have mounted a G2 on one of the Mossbergs, and wonder how the G2 with the stock P60 will hold up.

I find it an interesting subject, as I think about the recoil. Though a 3" shell with 00 buck in a light Mossberg is indeed impressive, it sure isn't as sharp as a 300 Ultra (the worst recoiling round I ever shot). It is more of a push, and my unscientific thoughts lead me to believe that a drop from 6 feet on concrete would be more shock on the P60 filament, then the push of a 12 gauge.

Has anyone put some 12G rounds on a G2?

For a closet gun, the G2 has great light. I don't want to spend money for nothing.

For an upgrade, a G3 with a P91 would be even better. Any experience with that?

If this is a defense shotgun, there's no way I would feel good about a non-shock isolated incandescent anything--especially when mounted on a 12 gauge. Get the M2 shock isolated bezel if you must have an incandescent lamp.

Otherwise, I suggest a Malkoff M60WL (warm-low). The L or LL variants are designed for use in the all-plastic lights. Besides, this probably would be cheaper than a new bezel (not to mention the upgrade in light output).

Yeah...although it can't be to fail-proof, as SF still sales the scout light with a non shock isolated incan bezel (M600B, i believe), but then again, this is for a carbine, and not a scattergun...I believe there was an older thread on the same subject, and the OP stated his P60 held up for awhile, but eventually went ... which they can do regardless, so an LED would be your best best, IMHO. If this is all you currently have, consider the "Tactical Loads", with alot less recoil. I second the malkoff, until you can afford a dedicated forend...

I have had P60 bulbs die as soon as 3 rounds of birdshot after mounting on shotgun without a shock isolated bezel.

Just stick a LED in there if you really want to use a G2.

Dennis.

Thanks for all the replies. Real life experience indicates that it is a bad idea.

If 3 rounds of birdshot took one out, I have no doubt that a 3" shell could do the job on a P60 with one round. In that calling ceasefire to change the bulb isn't practical, I will look into something else.

It seems a Malkoff low flood would be nice for this application.

I would also consider using a single, unprotected Li-ion to run the LED module. This avoids multiple potential problems due to recoil -- failure of a Li-ion protection circuit, cell-cell impact resulting in a dented top button contact, and momentary cell-cell separation resulting in the light cutting out. You also don't have to worry about cell balancing.

I agree that it's generally a bad idea. It wouldn't be if you weren't relying on it for defense purposes since sometimes they survive. I had a 6P survive quite a while on a 870 but then didn't last long at all on a recoil operated Super 90??? Perhaps the two way recoil impulse had an effect there. Although the shock isolation seems to be very effective, I've become quite the LED enthusiast for use in weaponlights, especially when it's easy, as in the case of the P60 platform.

New guy here reviving another old thread. I have a Mossberg 500A that I'm trying to get squared away with a light. For a long time I had a Surefire forend on it. I bought it way back when they still came with incandescent heads on them. I even upgraded it not long ago to an LED head. While the quality and light output are definitely there, I just don't like shooting the gun with this forend installed. If I'm shooting heavy buckshot or slugs I always end up with my left hand bruised and sore for several days afterward. The forend strikes my hand right on the bone where my index finger meets the back of my hand under recoil. So I took off the Surefire and put on a Magpul forend. I have a couple of old incandescent G2's laying around and I've even ordered McClicky tailcaps for a couple of them. I was going to mount one of them on my shotgun, but this thread is causing me to have second thoughts. I know I can install a Malkoff LED module and that it would be a significant upgrade for the light (although I'm still not sure exactly which one I would need). However, when I look at the cost of a Malkoff module I wonder if I wouldn't be just as well off ordering a Polytac LED from Amazon for less than $40. I have a couple of these already for other purposes, and they've never let me down, but are they up to the task of riding on a 12 gauge shotgun? From what I understand the Polytac wouldn't be as bright as the G2 with Malkoff module, but I'm not after the utmost in light output. I'm just looking for decent light for use indoors or short range outdoors. This shotgun is not a first line defensive weapon. I would go for a pistol or AR first, but I'd still like it to be up to the task. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I don't believe the positive end of the Polytac LED has a spring, which means the batteries would not be isolated. This means the LED could fail due to the batteries hitting against the circuit board during recoil.

I think it's a long shot, but were I you, I would get an aluminum bezel for the G2 you have, and run it with whatever LED drop in you wish.

angelofwar said:

Yeah...although it can't be to fail-proof, as SF still sales the scout light with a non shock isolated incan bezel (M600B, i believe), but then again, this is for a carbine, and not a scattergun...I believe there was an older thread on the same subject, and the OP stated his P60 held up for awhile, but eventually went ... which they can do regardless, so an LED would be your best best, IMHO. If this is all you currently have, consider the "Tactical Loads", with alot less recoil. I second the malkoff, until you can afford a dedicated forend...

Click to expand...

Dam thats a nice setup!

Off topic, what are the loads between the read shells?

cland72 said:

I don't believe the positive end of the Polytac LED has a spring, which means the batteries would not be isolated. This means the LED could fail due to the batteries hitting against the circuit board during recoil.

I think it's a long shot, but were I you, I would get an aluminum bezel for the G2 you have, and run it with whatever LED drop in you wish.

Click to expand...

Thanks for responding. I just checked a Polytac LED that I have and you are correct that the positive end has no spring. This is something I would have never thought to check. Spending the last 30 minutes or so on this forum has made me realize I know absolutely NOTHING about flashlights.

I found a thread listing a lot of drop-in LED replacements for the 6P lamps and it seems most of those do have a spring. I keep looking at the single mode Cree drop-ins. They get a lot of good reviews across several sites for brightness and beam, but occasionally people report they get too hot. I don't want to waste money on something that's just going to burn up. I don't know if it matters but I'm looking for something that puts out between 200-300 lumens.

When you suggest getting the aluminum bezel (where would I get this by the way?), would overheating be an issue? And why do you say it's a long shot?

The bezel to which Chris is referring is a Z44. They are a common item that can be purchased on eBay, from Oveready, and even right now in the CPF Marketplace. Sofarforce also offers a cheap compatible bezel, but you won't see me putting one on a Surefire body.

If your G2 has a Nitrolon head, then there's no suitable path for the heat to follow to get from the LED assembly to outside air. It will be trapped inside the body of the light, which is bad for LEDs and batteries. As long as the drop-in pulls less than 350 milliamps from 2 CR123s, it should be fine with a Nitrolon head.

If there's any chance to use this in a self defense situation, I suggest going with a Malkoff, Nailbender, or Vinh drop-in. These are fully potted for shock resistance and have been proven to work on shottys. A Nailbender or Vinh will need to be custom ordered to get the low output you need. Standard product is geared towards max output.

I received a G2 body just this week and did some testing with a Malkoff M61L driven by two RCR123s for near maximum output. With a Z44 installed, after 15 minutes, the bezel had risen less than ten degrees from the pre-test temperature. The only direct contact between drop-in and bezel is at the front edge.

SteveL408 said:

When you suggest getting the aluminum bezel (where would I get this by the way?), would overheating be an issue? And why do you say it's a long shot?

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Sorry, the "long shot" portion of my post wasn't worded very well. I meant it's a long shot that the Polytac LED would fail during shotgun-mounted use, but it is possible.

The reason I recommended the Z44 aluminum bezel on the G2 is, exactly as Grizzman pointed out, for heat dissipation in some of the higher output LED drop ins.

With a G2, Z44, and Malkoff M61L, you'd be looking at a bulletproof setup, 5 hours of regulated run time on a pair of CR123's, and about 175 lumens. Can't get much better than that for the price.

A shotgun P60 LED drop in commonly used is a XML LED in a smooth reflector. It offers the best combo of spill and throw. I have one on my Mossy 500 and is plenty bright even out to 25-30 yards. You could use a XPG but its really better suited in a M951/M952 rifle light. As stated before, you can use either the XML or XPG P60 in your G2 provided you keep the amperage down. I like to use the 3 to 18 volt drivers from FastTech for my builds and always get a consistent 700 mah at the tailcap. I've tested mine in a G2 with the stock Nitrolon head, the P60 wrapped in copper tape. The heat is not bad at all. It's no problem running 20 or 30 minutes straight. You can buy a SolarForce alum head on Fleabay for $7 delivered if needed.

I'm responding to your first post where you seem to be beaten up by your shot gun which also allows your shot gun to have excessive recoil, which might even affect wear and tear on a mounted flashlight. My adivse, have your shot gun stock modified for you. Go to a decent gun smith and have your, or another stock, fitted to you. Just two cents from a shooter.

Bill

cland72 said:

Sorry, the "long shot" portion of my post wasn't worded very well. I meant it's a long shot that the Polytac LED would fail during shotgun-mounted use, but it is possible.

The reason I recommended the Z44 aluminum bezel on the G2 is, exactly as Grizzman pointed out, for heat dissipation in some of the higher output LED drop ins.

With a G2, Z44, and Malkoff M61L, you'd be looking at a bulletproof setup, 5 hours of regulated run time on a pair of CR123's, and about 175 lumens. Can't get much better than that for the price.

Click to expand...

m4a1usr said:

A shotgun P60 LED drop in commonly used is a XML LED in a smooth reflector. It offers the best combo of spill and throw. I have one on my Mossy 500 and is plenty bright even out to 25-30 yards. You could use a XPG but its really better suited in a M951/M952 rifle light. As stated before, you can use either the XML or XPG P60 in your G2 provided you keep the amperage down. I like to use the 3 to 18 volt drivers from FastTech for my builds and always get a consistent 700 mah at the tailcap. I've tested mine in a G2 with the stock Nitrolon head, the P60 wrapped in copper tape. The heat is not bad at all. It's no problem running 20 or 30 minutes straight. You can buy a SolarForce alum head on Fleabay for $7 delivered if needed.

Click to expand...

Thank you both for helping me out here. This whole concept of building my own flashlight is new for me. I had no idea so many people did this on a regular basis or that the parts for doing so were so readily available. Clearly I have a lot more reading to do. I will also look into all of your suggestions. Ultimately I think this will cost me a little more than I had originally planned to spend. I was going to use the G2 because I already had it and thought it would be a good way to save a few bucks. It's not the end of the world though. I'm sure when I get it set up in a way that I like I'll be able to sell the Surefire forend without much problem and make up for it.

ETA: For what I've already spent on the switch upgrade, and looking at the cost of a Malkoff plus aluminum bezel I wonder wouldn't it just be easier and comparable in price to buy a whole new light that's up to the task? Or am I missing something here? Would I still be better off in regards to light output to upgrade the G2?

Bullzeyebill said:

I'm responding to your first post where you seem to be beaten up by your shot gun which also allows your shot gun to have excessive recoil, which might even affect wear and tear on a mounted flashlight. My adivse, have your shot gun stock modified for you. Go to a decent gun smith and have your, or another stock, fitted to you. Just two cents from a shooter.

Bill

Click to expand...

Thank you for responding. This is a pic of the shotgun in question, in case it's helpful at all.



It currently has Magpul's new stock on it and I'm rather happy with it, although I'm still experimenting with how many spacers are best for me. Currently I'm running two, and thinking about adding one more before shooting again. Anyway, this stock is a big improvement over the OEM stock and the recoil pad is much better as well. My issue with the forend has to do with how short the grip area is. Because of the way the flashlight is integrated into the unit it just doesn't leave much to hold on to. I don't mean my hand doesn't fit in the space but the front of my hand rides right up against the back of the the light like in the pic below. It's starts to get painful after only a couple of rounds. It's fine for everything but heavy buckshot loads and slugs, but these are the loads that I would be running if I ever actually needed this shotgun for any serious use.

WOW. Very nice! You already have the best fore end for a shotgun IMO. I have the previous generation. The LM2 head on yours is perfect for the application. Since your main issue is fitment you might consider adding a modified rear grip extension? Just something simple that would slide into the rear cuts behind the hand hold? Black delrin comes to mind. Like a collar so to speak.

Thanks! I've always been happy with the Surefire forend with regards to light output and quality. But as I type this my hand is still sore from shooting 25 2.75" slugs through it over a week ago. Maybe I'll give it another go and see if I can't find a way to grip it solidly without beating my hand to death. The interesting thing to me is that I don't have huge hands. I'm kind of in between a medium and large in Mechanix Gloves. Maybe newer renditions of this forend are slightly longer?

The forend itself is a Surefure 623FA (I just checked the box) and the LM2 head is the second head I've had on it. Way back when it bought it it came with an incandescent head on it and it sat in my safe relatively unused for several years. It's only been here lately that I decided to put some time and money into it. I bought the LM2 head to replace the original, had the gun cerakoted, put the Magpul stock on, and had Mossberg ghost ring sights installed. Here'a picture of the original head next to the LM2. IIRC light output is about tripled and battery life is more than doubled.

That older SF L60 (battery/lamp holder) will fit your G2. And it's a shock absorbing head. I have that same head in my SF fore end with one of my modified P60 LED's.