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Thread: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

  1. #1

    Default Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Hi folks,

    I've been playing around with my c9000 for awhile, using Break-In,Discharge & Charge modes. I currently have some underutilized 'Impact 2900' batteries [doubtful of that label], that had quite low values ~1700-1900 after a Break-in. I've read the instruction manual and apparently should be performing 3 R&A's, followed by another Break-in. That's fine; I'm currently performing 1st run of R&A. Charge rate: ~0.5C = 1400, Disharge rate: ~0.2C = 600.

    R&A will take about 12 hrs [including rest]x3 = 36 hrs total, based on my charge/discharge rates. This time estimate doesn't include the manual Discharge after each R&A.

    Would I be better off just performing 3 Cycles, to not worry about manually Discharging after each R&A, let alone babysitting to perform the 2nd and 3rd R&A?
    I would use Charge at the end of the final Cycle.

    I suppose I'm not very clear on the differences between R&A versus Cycle aside from Cycle ending in a discharged state and being able to perform multiple runs.
    Would running 3 Cycles have about the same effect as 3 R&A's?

    thanks,
    Marc

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Maybe it's just me being cynical, but any battery claiming to be 2900 mAh isn't going to be truthful/accurate anyway, so perhaps you shouldn't be too surprised by an actual result of 1900 mAh.

    To answer your question, I think I would just cycle them. You want to perform multiple runs without too much hassle.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    I'm with TorchBoy. Think about it this way; the best performing, non-LSD, cells are PowerEx 2700, and even those don't test out to the rated capacity. I would take what the break-in gave you, in mAh, and use that as a baseline for the R&A or cycle. Break-in, after-all, is the most truthful method.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Thanks guys, apparently working with these 'Impact 2900' AA cells was fruitless. It was more an exercise in playing around with the c9000.

    I ran a Break-in on 4 cells: 1700-1900
    1 R&A: 1750-1940
    Discharge: ~ same as R&A
    3 Cycles: 1760-1950. I noticed the first 2 cycles [cycle history], were available for review, but not the 3rd. Good to know.

    So, I'm not seeing a 10% increase after this procedure. I think it's time to part with these cells and get back to my powerex 2700s and eneloops. The good news is, I watched the charger terminate each slot @ 1.47 volts, so at least I know that works.

    I'll refer to previous posts regarding watching voltage at the 1/2 way discharge point, to be on the lookout for funky cells.

    I'm noticing a large variation in charge/discharge rates from people in this forum. From absolute values for all cells regardless of capacity, to % of cell capacity. I've been using a 50% charge rate [0.5C-1.0C] and 20% discharge rate [0.2C] guideline.

    Would I notice much difference in discharged amount, if I jacked up the discharge rate to 0.5C? I suppose I can try it out for fun and note the difference.

    Marc

  5. #5
    Flashaholic* TakeTheActive's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...I've read the instruction manual and apparently should be performing 3 R&A's, followed by another Break-in. That's fine; I'm currently performing 1st run of R&A. Charge rate: ~0.5C = 1400, Disharge rate: ~0.2C = 600...

    ...Would I be better off just performing 3 Cycles, to not worry about manually Discharging after each R&A, let alone babysitting to perform the 2nd and 3rd R&A?
    If your intention is to run 3 R&As regardless, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...I would use Charge at the end of the final Cycle...
    Unnecessary. Every function except DISCHARGE ends with a Charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...I suppose I'm not very clear on the differences between R&A versus Cycle aside from Cycle ending in a discharged state and being able to perform multiple runs...
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...Would running 3 Cycles have about the same effect as 3 R&A's?
    Not if you add the manual DISCHARGE between each REFRESH. That would increase the effective cycle (i.e. Charge/Discharge pairs) count to 5 (2 times total R&As minus 1).

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* TakeTheActive's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...apparently working with these 'Impact 2900' AA cells was fruitless. It was more an exercise in playing around with the c9000...
    View it as a "Learning Exercise" - nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...So, I'm not seeing a 10% increase after this procedure. I think it's time to part with these cells and get back to my powerex 2700s and eneloops...
    Don't TOSS / recycle them - USE / recycle them in clocks, remotes, thermometers, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...I'm noticing a large variation in charge/discharge rates from people in this forum. From absolute values for all cells regardless of capacity, to % of cell capacity. I've been using a 50% charge rate [0.5C-1.0C] and 20% discharge rate [0.2C] guideline.

    Would I notice much difference in discharged amount, if I jacked up the discharge rate to 0.5C? I suppose I can try it out for fun and note the difference.
    I attempt to Charge at the higher end of 0.5-1.0C until excessive heat (from rising Internal Resistance) interferes. And, while I Discharge at rates other than 0.2C (i.e. 100mA to cycle all of the chemicals, break up any large crystals, etc...), I use 0.2C for comparisons.

    IME, higher Discharge Rates result in lower Capacity readings, especially in older and/or lower quality cells. I believe that this is due to increased Internal Resistance.

    Why don't you do a few experiments yourself and see?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    TakeTheActive, I wanted to attempt a revival of some powerex 2700s [dated 07-08], that have been more or less storage box queens. I've done a couple of break-ins giving results ranging from 2100-2350.

    Since then, I tried your suggestion of charging at 2A and discharging at 100 mah to try and break up those crystals. So I set 5 Cycles on these 4 batteries. This was started last Sunday. The 5 Cycles are complete with results as follows:

    Battery 1: 2239, 2160, 2125, 2109
    Battery 2: 2168, 2022, 1960, 1917
    Battery 3: 2153, 2103, 2061, 2080
    Battery 4: 2351, 2316, 2298, 2281

    I didn't get the results from Cycle 5, as it doesn't appear to be stored on the mh-c9000 [OHO].
    I see a declining capacity with each cycle; what do these results indicate to you? I'd been using eneloops on a regular basis, so I neglected the maha cells for quite awhile.

    Anything further I could do to these cells, or is this typical for neglected batts?

    thanks,
    Marc

  8. #8
    Flashaholic* 45/70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Marc999, when I have cells that I've tried to revitalize, and they show what you're getting, I attribute it to separator degradation. The high capacity NiMH's have a proportionately thin separator compared to standard NiMH's, and are more easily damaged from non use, abuse, etc.

    Most cells that I've tried to restore, that have been idle for long periods, end up with this diagnosis. It's pretty much "use 'em or loose 'em" with NiMH's, particularly the high caps.

    Dave

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    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    I didn't get the results from Cycle 5, as it doesn't appear to be stored on the mh-c9000
    Wouldn't those be the figures that appear before pushing the up and down arrows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    [OHO].
    YDS.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    OK ... please give my slow processing power a clue. What's R&A? In my case it might stand for recharge and abuse!
    I'm absolutely certain that I need another flashlight.

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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by jayflash View Post
    OK ... please give my slow processing power a clue. What's R&A? In my case it might stand for recharge and abuse!
    Refresh and Analyze

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* 45/70's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by bcwang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jayflash View Post
    OK ... please give my slow processing power a clue. What's R&A? In my case it might stand for recharge and abuse!
    Refresh and Analyze
    Oh, I dunno bc, the way some of us here can attribute more discharges of our cells "analyzing" them than they get in actual use, I kinda like "recharge and abuse"!

    Dave

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by 45/70 View Post
    Oh, I dunno bc, the way some of us here can attribute more discharges of our cells "analyzing" them than they get in actual use, I kinda like "recharge and abuse"!

    Dave
    I fit in that category too. I have so many cells that I don't get to use most of them. So they end up spending more cycles "refreshing" than actually powering something. I still have cells that have only been cycled since bought years ago but never gone in a device, sigh..... I gotta stop buying new batteries but everytime they release something new.....

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    You guys crack me up...

    Who would buy cells and wear them out testing rather than using them in devices...

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  15. #15

    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    You guys crack me up...

    Who would buy cells and wear them out testing rather than using them in devices...

    Tom
    bcwang, apparently

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Glad I'm not the only one with a few extra cells of various flavors. They're for "emergencies", but I'll bet you knew that.
    I'm absolutely certain that I need another flashlight.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Well, good news. After the 5 Cycles @ 2000 charge, 100 discharge, I ran a break-in. Cell 1: 2445, Cell 2: 2415, Cell 3: 2342, Cell 4: 2204

    Seems like that high charge, low discharge helped breakup some crystals. I can't say the week long Cycling was worth the time, but at least I'll be more adamant about cycling rarely used cells more often. It was a good learning experience anyway to see what happens to back seat betty batteries.

    Marc.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by Face View Post
    bcwang, apparently
    Yup, I'm guilty. Anytime I see some new brand of cell at a reasonable price, I pick up a 4 pack. The biggest problem is ordering stuff online and trying to spread out the shipping I just try packs of batteries I never used before. Many times after doing some testing they turn out to be quite poor and then they just sit on the shelf until I decide to test it again to see if they are still ok or not. Many of the cells have aged to a capacity that is considered junk cells already.

    I've been able to hold off that habit for a while now, seeing as I have too many cells. I don't have much of the latest batteries and I hope not to buy any unless I someday run out of cells. But this really sounds unlikely....sigh.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* TakeTheActive's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    Well, good news...

    ...Seems like that high charge, low discharge helped breakup some crystals. I can't say the week long Cycling was worth the time, but at least I'll be more adamant about cycling rarely used cells more often. It was a good learning experience anyway to see what happens to back seat betty batteries
    .


    Code:
    Powerex 2700mAh AA [dated 07-08] |   #1    #2    #3    #4
    ---------------------------------+---------------------------
    08/25/09 C9000 Break-In          | 2445  2415  2342  2204 mAh
    08/21/09 C9000 Cycle5:  2000/ 100|    ?     ?     ?     ? mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Cycle4:  2000/ 100| 2109  1917  2080  2281 mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Cycle3:  2000/ 100| 2125  1960  2061  2298 mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Cycle2:  2000/ 100| 2160  2022  2103  2316 mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Cycle1:  2000/ 100| 2239  2168  2153  2351 mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Break-In          |    ?     ?     ?     ? mAh
    Last edited by TakeTheActive; 08-28-2009 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Added table of YOUR data that I originally created for another thread's reply.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Mh-C9000: R&A vs. Cycle

    Quote Originally Posted by TakeTheActive View Post


    Code:
    Powerex 2700mAh AA [dated 07-08] |   #1    #2    #3    #4
    ---------------------------------+---------------------------
    08/25/09 C9000 Break-In          | 2445  2415  2342  2204 mAh
    08/21/09 C9000 Cycle5:  2000/ 100|    ?     ?     ?     ? mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Cycle4:  2000/ 100| 2109  1917  2080  2281 mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Cycle3:  2000/ 100| 2125  1960  2061  2298 mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Cycle2:  2000/ 100| 2160  2022  2103  2316 mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Cycle1:  2000/ 100| 2239  2168  2153  2351 mAh
    08/xx/09 C9000 Break-In          |    ?     ?     ?     ? mAh

    Well, it looks like Cell #3 and #4 have problems. I'm going away on a fishing trip tomorrow so I decided to discharge and charge up the powerex batteries. I Discharged the 4 last night @ default rates; 2 of the 4 banks showed 0 mah upon completion. I'd never seen this before so set them on Charge at default rates this morning. The same 2 banks showed up HIGH. Strange considering the results above, less than a month ago. I let the 2 batteries rest, then tried charging them in the maha-c204w. Same result, red flashing light...won't charge.
    The good news is, I've got a dozen eneloops to power my gps, flash light and camera so I'm good to go.

    Marc

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* TakeTheActive's Avatar
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    Thinking C9000 Impedance Check Voltage on *CRAP* Cells...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    Well, it looks like Cell #3 and #4 have problems... ...I Discharged the 4 last night @ default rates; 2 of the 4 banks showed 0 mah upon completion. I'd never seen this before so set them on Charge at default rates this morning. The same 2 banks showed up HIGH. Strange considering the results above, less than a month ago. I let the 2 batteries rest, then tried charging them in the maha-c204w. Same result, red flashing light...won't charge...
    Welcome to the 'Rechargeable Cells w/High Internal Resistance' Club!

    What is the C9000 Impedance Check Voltage on these *crap* cells?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...Strange considering the results above, less than a month ago. I let the 2 batteries rest, then tried charging them in the maha-c204w. Same result, red flashing light...won't charge...
    Quote Originally Posted by Marc999 View Post
    ...I wanted to attempt a revival of some powerex 2700s [dated 07-08], that have been more or less storage box queens. I've done a couple of break-ins giving results ranging from 2100-2350...
    Quote Originally Posted by bcwang View Post
    ...I have so many cells that I don't get to use most of them. So they end up spending more cycles "refreshing" than actually powering something. I still have cells that have only been cycled since bought years ago but never gone in a device, sigh...
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    You guys crack me up...

    Who would buy cells and wear them out testing rather than using them in devices...
    Several weeks ago, 45/70 posted a method that he used to use, IIRC, to attempt to dissolve crystals. It's tedious and time consuming (Discharge @ 100mA to 0.9VDC; Charge @ 0.5C for ~5min; REPEAT), but, it sounded viable so I tried it:

    Code:
    Rayovac I-C3 2000mAh AA      [B] |   #5    #6    #7    #8
    ---------------------------------+---------------------------
    
    09/xx/09 C9000 Break-In: 1600    |  n/a     x   n/a     x mAh
    
    09/xx/09 Sears Solar LED Lamp    |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh
    09/xx/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |  n/a     x   n/a     x mAh
    09/20/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1549   n/a  1638 mAh
    
    09/20/09 C9000 Break-In: 1800    |  n/a  HIGH   n/a  OPEN mAh
    09/19/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |  n/a    15   n/a     0 mAh
    09/19/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1617   n/a  1676 mAh
    09/20/09 C9000 Break-In: 2000    | 1639  HIGH  1655  MODE mAh
    09/18/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |    0   125     4    10 mAh
    09/18/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   | 1556  1470  1498   960 mAh
    09/11/09 SAKAR Charge:  150      |  n/a   ~24   n/a   ~24tHrs
    09/10/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  |  n/a  1.62   n/a  1.64 VDC
    09/10/09 Sears Solar LED Lamp    |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh
    
    08/23/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh
    08/23/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh
    08/23/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1529   n/a  1706 mAh
    08/23/09 C9000 Break-In          |  n/a  HIGH   n/a   n/a mAh#
    
    08/21/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |  n/a   ---   n/a   --- mAh 
    08/21/09 C9000 Discharge: 1000   |  n/a  1396   n/a  1649 mAh
    08/21/09 BC900 Charge: 1800      |  n/a +1781t  n/a   --- mAh
    
    08/20/09 C9000 Break-In          | 1687   n/a  1698   n/a mAh#
    08/19/09 C9000 Discharge: 1000   | 1664   n/a  1617   n/a mAh
    
    08/18/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |  n/a    74   n/a    38 mAh
    08/18/09 C9000 Discharge:  400   |  n/a  1575   n/a  1663 mAh
    08/18/09 C9000 Break-In          | 1729  HIGH  1781     3 mAh#
    
    08/16/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.59  1.68  1.59  1.66 VDC
    08/16/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |   ~3    ~2    ~3    ~1 Min
    08/16/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   21    28     8    77 mAh
    08/16/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   77    54    91    28 mAh
    08/16/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:3m   |  101   101   102   100 mAh
    
    08/16/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.71  1.59  1.66 VDC
    08/16/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |   ~1    ~2    ~1    ~4 Min
    08/16/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   22    26     8    41 mAh
    08/16/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   35     9    47     2 mAh
    08/16/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:2m   |   52    53    53    52 mAh
    
    08/16/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.69  1.59  1.64 VDC
    08/16/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |   ~2   ~10    ~1    ~2 Min
    08/16/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   23    28     8    46 mAh 
    08/16/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   47    19    66     9 mAh
    08/16/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:2m   |   53    54    54    53 mAh
    
    08/15/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.67  1.59  1.59 VDC
    08/15/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |   ~2   ~30    ~7    ~6 Min
    08/15/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   22     7    11    41 mAh
    08/15/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   30     2    52     2 mAh
    08/15/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:2m   |   53    56    56    54 mAh
    
    08/15/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.70  1.60  1.79 VDC
    08/15/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   33   RST    16   RST mAh
    08/15/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |  152   125   193    99 mAh
    08/15/09 C9000 Charge: 2000:5m   |  200   201   203   201 mAh
    
    08/13/09 Superman 1AA Flashlight |    2    15     2     2 Min
    08/13/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.69  1.60  1.80 VDC
    08/13/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   19    79    37   106 mAh
    08/13/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   80    13    96    25 mAh
    08/13/09 C9000 Charge: 1000:6m   |  100   100   100   100 mAh
    
    08/13/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.60  1.68  1.60  1.80 VDC
    08/13/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   18    93    27    99 mAh
    08/13/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   54    25    98    16 mAh
    08/13/09 C9000 Charge: 1000:6m   |  100   101   100   100 mAh
    
    08/12/09 C9000 Impedance Check:  | 1.62  1.70  1.61  1.80 VDC
    08/12/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |   10   116    37   102 mAh
    08/12/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |   35    20    82     7 mAh
    08/12/09 C9000 Charge: 1000:6m   |   90   101   110   100 mAh
    08/12/09 BC900 Discharge:  100   |    0   118    41   100 mAh
    08/12/09 C9000 Discharge:  100   |    0   167    19     0 mAh
    [Bought: mm/dd/yy - HP Camera, GPS, RS Thermometer]
     --- Results not recorded
     n/a Cell not included
     RST BC-900 reset itself when programming new channel
     't' Cell's internal (pressure) switch TRIPPED
    Note the eventual drop of C9000 Impedance Check Voltage on Cell #8. Also take note of how much more the BC-900 DISCHARGE @ 100mA (500mA @ 20% Duty Cycle) can get out of the cell compared to the C9000 DISCHARGE @ 100mA (1000mA @ 10% Duty Cycle). Then, look at how long the '*FREE* Duracell Superman 1AA Incandescent Flashlight' DISCHARGE runs (until the bulb is COMPLETELY extinguished, AFAICT) after the BC-900 is done.

    I interpret the drops in BC-900 and Superman Flashlight numbers as the dissolving of the large crystals and thus the reduction of the cell's Internal Resistance, resulting in an increase in the cell's Capacity @ 0.2C.

    Granted, the average (sensible) rechargeable cell user would just RECYCLE *crap* cells and move on (the ROI vs Time-Invested ratio STINKS! ). But, for those of us with the TIME, and the CURIOSITY, IMHO experiments like these increase our knowledge.

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