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Thread: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

  1. #1
    Flashaholic
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    Default PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    can a standard AAA-AA charger be used for these 1.6v cell or would i need to buy yet another charger

  2. #2
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    You'll need their kind of charger.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Thanks to your post I ended up ordering a kit! I never heard of this before I read this post, but doing some research it looks like something that could be interesting with the higher voltage and lower internal resistance.

    I'm thinking in something like the Nikon SB800 flash, you could get much faster recycling times with 4 of these cells and even beat 5 Nimh cells. (4x1.6 > 5x1.2)

    I'm also hoping it can power 1AA flashlights like the L1D and Quark AA with a higher turbo mode close to the 2AA versions in brightness.

    I guess I need more info on or will soon try and figure out:
    -what devices are known to be safe with this (worried about over-voltage) I think these are 1.6v nominal but 1.9v hot off the charger. How high are AA lithiums?
    -what is the self discharge rate
    -what is the correct safe discharge cut-off voltage
    -what kind of voltage drop under load
    -what is the max amps I can safely draw

    There doesn't seem to be much information about these cells so far which is surprising considering how much people on this forum are into batteries.

  4. #4

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    You definitely need a charger designed for NiZn. The charging properties are too different from NiMH or NiCd.

    The main reason I haven't pursued NiZn myself is because I'm already all set up with and satisfied with my LSD NiMHs. I'm interested in and have been keeping an eye on the chemistry, though.

    AA Lithiums start at 1.7V. NiZn isn't a very widespread chemistry yet, so those 1.9 volts could very well some devices until the electronics industry accounts for them.

    I haven't yet found satisfactory information regarding self-discharge. Nor the discharge characteristics, though it should be pretty impressive. The chemistry looks to be hardy.

    You're actually supposed to charge these batteries fast, no slower than 0.5C and ideally at 1C. They don't like long charges at all. The suggested charge cycle is a 1.9V CC/CV algorithm, with a hard time limit.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Ran one on a CBA-II, didn't meet capacity figures. Maybe it'll improve with cycles or under less load. The good thing is it seems to stay cool during charge and during discharge. They also feel lighter than nimh batteries. I'm still trying to figure out the charger. I'm too chicken to use this anywhere so far other than my Quark. I've heard of burned out flashes and broken cameras using this type of battery, so I'm checking out voltage range specs for each device before I try it.

    Cell Rating 1500mah typical, 1350mah minimum

    My Test
    Discharge Rate: 1.5 amps
    End of discharge: 1197 mah

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* Chrontius's Avatar
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Malkoffs will regulate on anything, so when are we going to see something sized for using in a 6r?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    I've heard of people blowing their flashed on these batteries.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcwang View Post
    Thanks to your post I ended up ordering a kit! I never heard of this before I read this post, but doing some research it looks like something that could be interesting with the higher voltage and lower internal resistance.

    I'm thinking in something like the Nikon SB800 flash, you could get much faster recycling times with 4 of these cells and even beat 5 Nimh cells. (4x1.6 > 5x1.2)

    I'm also hoping it can power 1AA flashlights like the L1D and Quark AA with a higher turbo mode close to the 2AA versions in brightness.

    I guess I need more info on or will soon try and figure out:
    -what devices are known to be safe with this (worried about over-voltage) I think these are 1.6v nominal but 1.9v hot off the charger. How high are AA lithiums?
    -what is the self discharge rate
    -what is the correct safe discharge cut-off voltage
    -what kind of voltage drop under load
    -what is the max amps I can safely draw

    There doesn't seem to be much information about these cells so far which is surprising considering how much people on this forum are into batteries.

  8. #8

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by bcwang View Post
    My Test
    Discharge Rate: 1.5 amps
    End of discharge: 1197 mah
    The voltage sag seems a little steep. Did they come off the charger at 1.9V open circuit?

    It could be that these need a forming charge or a few cycles to break in, so the numbers may change after some use.

    IIRC, the capacity rating for NiZn is done at 1C discharge so your test should be label accurate.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    tebore,
    Yes, I've heard of people blowing their flashes with these batteries too. The Nikon sb-600 seems to be the one I keep reading about that won't work. Though I also read the sb-800 and sb-900 work great with these batteries. I'm still too chicken to try them in anything without asking about operating voltage first. I don't want to blow my canon flashes or any of my other electronics.

    xenonk,
    I don't remember what voltage it comes off the charger exactly, but 3 days of resting, the battery is 1.79v. Pulling half an amp, it showed 1.75v.

    If their testing is done at 1c, I should be getting higher mah figures. I guess I'll try it again after a few cycles. Maybe it just needs a few cycles to get going just like nimh.

    It seems the discharge curve is not as flat as nimh. Dropping more gradually overall, but not holding a flat voltage for any large range. I guess voltage sensitive devices will have more varying performance throughout the discharge of the batteries.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    ok, I did a bit of discharge testing to determine internal resistance. I discharged until it looked like the voltage stabilized. The cell was charged 1 week ago.

    0.2 amp = 1.7v
    1 amp = 1.65v
    5 amp = 1.52v
    10 amp = 1.37v

    20 amp was bad, it initially looked like it held around 1.13v, but then it kept dropping to 1v so I stopped the test. The cell felt quite hot. So I stopped testing completely and left it as I started analyzing the numbers. 5 minutes later when I went to take it out of the CBA II it was burning hot! Hopefully it's not an internal short but that it simply got hot from the 20amp test and it is just taking time for the heat to transfer out. After it cools down I'm going to test it to see if it's still working fine.

    Anyhow, from the looks of the numbers it seems the internal resistance is around 30 milliohm. This is better than the 40-60 milliohm I've measured from my better nimh cells.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    ohh Thank you Bcwang for doing the test, glad i saw this
    Discharge Rate: 1.5 amps
    End of discharge: 1197 mah <--- that SUCKS (closest thing to a raspberry icon)
    if there wasnt an almost .5v higher voltage potential under load i would say that really sucks , but it just sucks :-)
    Last edited by VidPro; 08-26-2009 at 02:16 AM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by VidPro View Post
    ohh Thank you Bcwang for doing the test, glad i saw this
    Discharge Rate: 1.5 amps
    End of discharge: 1197 mah <--- that SUCKS (closest thing to a raspberry icon)
    if there wasnt an almost .5v higher voltage potential under load i would say that really sucks , but it just sucks :-)
    Don't forget, that was only after the very first charge. I have no idea if it will get better as I haven't had a chance to put any cycles on them yet.

    Update to my load and testing. I did kill the cell. It only gives 200 mah after a full charge and discharged at 1.35 amp. Even lowering the current to 200ma at that point it gives an additional 60 mah.

    I'm waiting to hear from powergenix on what the max continuous current of the cell is. Obviously 20 amp is unacceptable.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    great, you fried it, more wonderfull data.
    mabey you should put that right under the graph :-) or make a "schwoop" graph for 20amps
    Last edited by VidPro; 08-26-2009 at 05:20 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    what would happen if you put these batteries in a nimh charger??

  15. #15
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by MarioJP View Post
    what would happen if you put these batteries in a nimh charger??
    the results would be unpredictable, because you didnt say WHICH charger. many of them just wouldnt charge it fully, some would GASS the cell out, ruining it, some might show a high signal and not charge , Not because it was high resistance but because the tests punches in some amps and tests the voltage.
    at any rate the cell wants a CC/CV type of charge, not the usual Ni-Mh type of charging. CC/CV can potentially be easily done with a power supply, or simple voltage control, and the precise parameters. (if ya trying to be cheap)

  16. #16

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by VidPro View Post
    the results would be unpredictable, because you didnt say WHICH charger. many of them just wouldnt charge it fully, some would GASS the cell out, ruining it, some might show a high signal and not charge , Not because it was high resistance but because the tests punches in some amps and tests the voltage.
    at any rate the cell wants a CC/CV type of charge, not the usual Ni-Mh type of charging. CC/CV can potentially be easily done with a power supply, or simple voltage control, and the precise parameters. (if ya trying to be cheap)
    What if the NiZn is used in a charger like the La crosse BC-9009?. I know this charger will charge any battery that you put in it. I wanted to get familiar what this charger is capable of. It actually started to charge alkaline battery, but I immediately pull the plug.

    Wow talk about a charger that charges lol.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Erm, no. You can only change the NiZn batteries in the correct charger as what was said earlier. The LaCrosse will probably ruin them.

  18. #18

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    I was reading on the technical datasheet. It says that these batteries must be recharged after 30 days????. Is this true.

    So much of eliminating the problem of self discharge eh?.

  19. #19

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    supposedly this is the next gen AA that can potentially replace NiMh, but the chart says "recharge after 30 days"????.

    Wow this does not solve the self discharge problem in fact it worsens.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by MarioJP View Post
    supposedly this is the next gen AA that can potentially replace NiMh, but the chart says "recharge after 30 days"????.

    Wow this does not solve the self discharge problem in fact it worsens.
    I just did a test on a cell that was sitting for 2 months after a charge

    Test parameters - discharge at 1350mah down to 1.3v
    Capacity tested right after charge - 1175mah
    Capacity tested 2 months after charge - 1121mah

    That's pretty damn good charge retention right there. I should mention the voltage throughout the discharge curve was about 0.05v less than when tested freshly charged. Though it is still putting out far more voltage than a nimh in any state.

    Powergenix replaced my damaged cell with a set of newer and supposedly improved ones. I'll be putting those to test soon.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by bcwang View Post
    I just did a test on a cell that was sitting for 2 months after a charge

    Test parameters - discharge at 1350mah down to 1.3v
    Capacity tested right after charge - 1175mah
    Capacity tested 2 months after charge - 1121mah

    That's pretty damn good charge retention right there. I should mention the voltage throughout the discharge curve was about 0.05v less than when tested freshly charged. Though it is still putting out far more voltage than a nimh in any state.

    Powergenix replaced my damaged cell with a set of newer and supposedly improved ones. I'll be putting those to test soon.
    95% of capacity retention after 2 months... thats great!!!!

    when you do a discharge test consider the power, not the current, cause the voltage is different. when you drain 1A from a ni-mh battery you get around 1.2W of power, for take the same power from a ni-zn you must drain around 750mA of current

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* Paul_in_Maryland's Avatar
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    The manufacturer's English spec sheet can be found here in PDF, with discharge curves plotted at four rates.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    The next generation will come in 2011, featuring several improvements, according to this post on another forum.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  24. #24

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    I am tempted to get these cells. What happens if these cells are discharged below 1.3 Volts??.

  25. #25

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Any more info on these? I'm tempted to try 2 in a Javelin. 4 with a dedicated charger for under $30 is cheaper than the L91 primaries I'm using.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    Any more info on these? I'm tempted to try 2 in a Javelin. 4 with a dedicated charger for under $30 is cheaper than the L91 primaries I'm using.
    I consulted Eagletac if it was safe to use them in P20A2 and they gave me the thumbs up. Haven't done it yet cause I use them for my DSLR's.
    Fenix TA21 | Olight M20 Warrior | Eagletac P20A2 | Solarforce L2 | ITP A3 EOS Ti | Lumapower Vantage | LED Lenser Police Focus |

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* Paul_in_Maryland's Avatar
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    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    Any more info on these? I'm tempted to try 2 in a Javelin. 4 with a dedicated charger for under $30 is cheaper than the L91 primaries I'm using.
    I tried my Dereelight XPG R5 with a pair of these NiZn cells. It was quite bright...but three NiMH Eneloops were even brighter, and the Dereelight can't safely use three NiZn cells.

    I also tried using three NiZN cells to power my Malkoff M30WF. The Malkoff is specified to safely accept up to 5.0V. After 10 minutes, the Malkoff began strobing to keep cool. I'm surprised, for I've tested my dozen NiZn AA cells at 1A discharge, and 10 of them deliver a "modest" 1.6V after just 1 minute. Still, the Malkoff is so well-regulated, there's no shame in using just two NiZn cells in the 2AA host of your choice: Dereelight Javelin, Solarforce L2R, FiveMega 2AA--am I leaving anyone out?

    Where NiZn may shine is with incan lamps nominally rated at 6V but designed to run at 4.8V. This weekend I'll test two such lamps--the Lumens Factory HO-6 and EO-6--with three NiZn cells and four NiMH cells. I'll report the results in a thread I began in the Incandescent Flashlights forum.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  28. #28

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Conan View Post
    I consulted Eagletac if it was safe to use them in P20A2 and they gave me the thumbs up. Haven't done it yet cause I use them for my DSLR's.
    .
    ---------------------------------------------

    I just order 1Hr charger and 4 NiZn from Amazon.com.
    I'll test 2 NiZn on my Jetbeam Jet I PRO EX V3 and ET P-20 A2.

    Paul_in_Maryland ! I hope you're right, otherwise, my flashlights will .....




  29. #29
    Flashaholic* Paul_in_Maryland's Avatar
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    Default View the instructions for the PowerGenix NiZn fast charger

    I've posted my results in the incan forum. The HO-6 hot-flashed; the HO-4 shorted out. The EO-6 and EO-4 worked (on 3 NiZns and three NiMHs, respectively) but their output was underwhelming.

    I've posted, in English and Spanish, a scan of the instructions that came with the PowerGenenix fast charger. I'd embed the images here, but the text is too small to remain readable in a CPF-compliant image width of 800 pixels.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  30. #30

    Default Re: PowerGenix NiZn batteries

    The only downside about these cells is they can fail prematurely if they get shorted. They will fail almost instantly too. I lost 2 of these cells because of this. Otherwise these are the next gen AA cells to hit the market

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