C9000 Resets As Soon As It Gets a Cell Reading

aef03 · Aug 27, 2009

Recently purchased the MH-C9000 and have been using it successfully in break-in mode and refresh-analyze on new 2100 mAh Immedions and older, low use 2700 mAh PowerEx Cells (Camera flash).

I have also "successfully" gotten the "HIGH" reading from some old Lenmar cells.

I have some well used 2100 mAh PowerEx cells that have been charged in the Maha MH-C401FS (individual cell charging) for a couple years. They still seem to take a charge in that charger. In the MH-C9000, 3 out of 4 of them behave oddly.

When I insert one cell at a time in any slot of the C9000 it resets shortly after getting a cell reading. It does not matter whether I've selected a mode or just leave it sitting on the mode selection - as soon as it reads 0 mAh, it resets (entire display goes blank, backlight goes off and then starts up again).

Sometimes if I leave the cell in for over 20 or so resets, the display finally reads "HIGH"

If a cell in the charger is successfully charging, then when one of these cells cycles around, it acts like I haven't set the charge mode yet.

I searched the manual and online to try to understand if this is a known or expected behavior - but can't find anything.

My questions are:
*) Has anyone else seen this behavior?
*) If so, is it a designed-in behavior since the "HIGH" eventually registers?
*) Or is my unit defective?

*) Why do these batteries appear to take a charge on the C401FS? Maybe because I don't get cell stats back from that charger, I don't notice because good and bad batteries get mixed?

Thanks much,
D.

PEU · Aug 27, 2009

I posted a similar problem here: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3063892&postcount=480

Pablo

aef03 · Aug 27, 2009

I think my situation may be different because with the same set of cells it does it in any slot and ONLY when there are no other cells in the charger.

Seems like it *might* be designed behavior.

D.

aef03 · Aug 27, 2009

I just called Maha and the tech said that the charger had a problem with the cell and that he "thinks" it is designed behavior. He sounded uncertain in that "get this person off the phone" kind of way. I can't find anything in the manual or in online searches about the behavior being expected.

The Maha faq says that if the charger resets upon insertion of a cell, to give them a call.

The FAQ also said that cells that the C9000 rejects may charge on another charger because it doesn't have these protection circuits.

If I am optimistic I could guess that the cell is in a condition where the charger logic of the HIGH impedance detection is off and that nothing else is wrong.

Still unusual how they take a reasonable charge on the older Maha charger.

TakeTheActive · Aug 27, 2009

aef03 said:
...If I am optimistic I could guess that the cell is in a condition where the charger logic of the HIGH impedance detection is off and that nothing else is wrong...

IME, you have a *CRAP* cell with EXTREMELY high Internal Resistance.

Going by memory, without checking *ALL* of my records, IMO, there are (at least) 3 levels of Internal Resistance detected by the MH-C9000 during the 'Impedance Check' stage (i.e. first few seconds before attempting to charge):

LT ~2.10VDC: Will be accepted and charged.
- Within that group, I personally have 3 more classifications:
- ~1.60VDC: Healthy, vibrant, probably new;
  provides GT 90% Capacity
- ~1.80VDC: Healthy, semi-vibrant, older - probably @ mid-life;
  provides ~80-90% Capacity
- ~2.00VDC: 'Past Their Prime', old, probably @ end-of-life;
  provides ~60-80% Capacity
.
GT ~2.10VDC and LT ~2.98VDC: Will not be accepted and charged.
Initially displays 'HIGH' but usually gives a voltage reading after repeated attempts.
.
GT ~2.98VDC: Will not be accepted and charged.
Consistantly 'blinks' and returns to 'Mode Selection';
Never displays 'HIGH';
Never gives a voltage reading.

aef03 said:
...Still unusual how they take a reasonable charge on the older Maha charger.

After Charging them on the MH-C401FS, Discharge them on the MH-C9000 @:

1.0C
100mA

...and report back with the results.

While these tests are running, click on my Sig Line LINK and read the articles on Theory. They will give you a better understanding at to what is actually going on.

For any new to mid-life cells in the 1b and 1c categories above, read the articles about Storage Box Queens and try the 'fixes'. Sometimes you get lucky.

Have fun!

UPDATE (09/26/10): An old RadioShack 1300mAh non-LSD *CRAP* cell just registered 2.98VDC on my MH-C9000 (0H0AA).

UPDATE (09/20/09): An old Rayovac 1600mAh non-LSD *CRAP* cell just registered 2.88VDC on my MH-C9000 (0H0AA).

Mr Happy · Aug 27, 2009

aef03 said:
I think my situation may be different because with the same set of cells it does it in any slot and ONLY when there are no other cells in the charger.

Seems like it *might* be designed behavior.

I think you might be right about this. I don't have my C9000 in front of me right now, but I recall it might do the same thing if you put an alkaline cell in it for charging. Do you have an empty alkaline cell handy? If so, you could do a test with that and see if you get the same behavior. I will do the same myself when I get home to see what my sample of the C9000 does.

TakeTheActive · Aug 27, 2009

Mr Happy said:
...but I recall it might do the same thing if you put an alkaline cell in it for charging. Do you have an empty alkaline cell handy? If so, you could do a test with that and see if you get the same behavior...

Or a VERY high Internal Resistance *CRAP* cell.

Code:

NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 - 'HIGH'  (Impedance Check C9000) ONN-Y !TRASH!
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 - 2.11VDC (Impedance Check C9000) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 -  *WARM* (Charge    PS-3    500) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 - 'HIGH'  (Impedance Check C9000) ONN-Y ?TRASH?
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 - 2.39VDC (Impedance Check C9000) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 02/18/09 - 1102mAh (Refresh2   BC-900  200) ONN-Y ?Recycle?
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 02/xx/09 -  871mAh (Refresh1   BC-900  200) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 01/28/09 - 1171mAh (Refresh   BC-900  500) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 01/22/09 - 1088mAh (Refresh   BC-900  700) ONN-Y

NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 04/10/09 - 'HIGH'  (Impedance Check C9000) None !TRASH!
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 04/10/09 - 2.43VDC (Impedance Check C9000) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 04/10/09 -  *WARM* (Charge    PS-3    500) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 04/10/09 - 'MODE'  (Impedance Check C9000) None ?TRASH?
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 02/17/09 - 'HIGH'  (Break-In       C-9000) None ?Recycle?
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 02/17/09 - 1191mAh (Refresh3   BC-900  200) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 02/xx/09 - 1175mAh (Refresh2   BC-900  200) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 02/xx/09 - 1158mAh (Refresh1   BC-900  200) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 02/12/09 -  ---mAh (Charge RadioShk140/13) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 02/12/09 -  ---mAh (Discharge Superman) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 02/11/09 -    0mAh (Discharge C-9000  100) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 02/11/09 - 'HIGH'  (Charge    C-9000  800) None
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma A2: 01/20/09 - 1265mAh (Refresh   BC-900  700) None

NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 - 'HIGH'  (Impedance Check C9000) ONV-Y !TRASH!
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 - 2.45VDC (Impedance Check C9000) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 -  *WARM* (Charge    PS-3    500) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 04/10/09 - 'MODE'  (Impedance Check C9000) ONV-Y ?TRASH?
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 02/13/09 - 1085mAh (Refresh2   BC-900  200) ONV-Y ?Recycle?
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 02/12/09 -  585mAh (Refresh1   BC-900  200) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 01/20/09 -  858mAh (Refresh   BC-900 1000) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 01/20/09 - ----mAh (Charge    BC-900 1500) ONV-Y 
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  1: 01/18/09 -  648mAh (Refresh   BC-900 1000) ONV-Y

NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  3: 04/10/09 - 'HIGH'  (Impedance Check C9000) ONV-Y !TRASH!
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  3: 04/10/09 - 2.40VDC (Impedance Check C9000) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  3: 04/10/09 -  *WARM* (Charge    PS-3    500) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  3: 04/10/09 - 'MODE'  (Impedance Check C9000) ONV-Y ?TRASH?
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  3: 02/11/09 - 1065mAh (Refresh   BC-900  200) ONV-Y ?Recycle?
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  3: 02/07/09 -  661mAh (Refresh   BC-900  700) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  3: 02/06/09 -  396mAh (Charge    BC-900 1000) ONV-Y

NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  5: 02/16/09 -  'MODE' (Charge    C-9000  800) LNH-Y !TRASH!
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  5: 02/13/09 -  820mAh (Refresh   BC-900  200) LNH-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  5: 02/13/09 -  ---mAh (Charge RadioShk140/13) LNH-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  5: 02/12/09 -  485mAh (Refresh   BC-900  200) LNH-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  5: 01/24/09 -  966mAh (Refresh   BC-900  700) LNH-Y

NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/16/09 -  'MODE' (Charge    C-9000  800) ONV-Y !TRASH!
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/14/09 -    0mAh (Discharge C-9000  100) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/14/09 -  ---mAh (Charge RadioShk140/13) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/12/09 -  ---mAh (Discharge Superman) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/12/09 -    0mAh (Discharge C-9000  100) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/12/09 -  ---mAh (Charge   Sakar 150/16) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 01/22/09 -  639mAh (Discharge BC-900  100) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 01/21/09 - ----mAh (Charge    BC-900  700) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 01/21/09 -  900mAh (Discharge BC-900  100) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 01/20/09 - ----mAh (Charge   Sakar 150/16) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 01/19/09 - ----mAh (Charge    BC-900 1500) ONV-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 01/19/09 -  749mAh (Refresh   BC-900  500) ONV-Y

NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/16/09 -  'MODE' (Charge    C-9000  800) ONN-Y !TRASH!
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/14/09 -    0mAh (Discharge C-9000  100) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/14/09 -  ---mAh (Charge RadioShk140/13) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/12/09 -  ---mAh (Discharge Superman) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/12/09 -    0mAh (Discharge C-9000  100) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/12/09 -  ---mAh (Charge   Sakar 150/16) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 02/07/09 -  578mAh (Discharge BC-900  100) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 01/20/09 -  705mAh (Refresh   BC-900  700) ONN-Y
NiMh Rayovac     AA 1600ma  2: 01/20/09 - ----mAh (Charge    BC-900 1800) ONN-Y

aef03 said:
...Seems like it *might* be designed behavior...

+1 :thumbsup:

Mr Happy · Aug 28, 2009

aef03 said:
When I insert one cell at a time in any slot of the C9000 it resets shortly after getting a cell reading. It does not matter whether I've selected a mode or just leave it sitting on the mode selection - as soon as it reads 0 mAh, it resets (entire display goes blank, backlight goes off and then starts up again).

Sometimes if I leave the cell in for over 20 or so resets, the display finally reads "HIGH"

If a cell in the charger is successfully charging, then when one of these cells cycles around, it acts like I haven't set the charge mode yet.

I searched the manual and online to try to understand if this is a known or expected behavior - but can't find anything.

My questions are:
*) Has anyone else seen this behavior?
*) If so, is it a designed-in behavior since the "HIGH" eventually registers?
*) Or is my unit defective?

*) Why do these batteries appear to take a charge on the C401FS? Maybe because I don't get cell stats back from that charger, I don't notice because good and bad batteries get mixed?

OK, I have just tested on my own C9000 (0G0D01) and I think what you are seeing is happening by design. Here are the results:

Cell #1 (alkaline): Slot reads 2.55 V then shows "HIGH" and won't charge.

Cell #2 (heavy duty): Slot reads 2.68 V then shows "HIGH" and won't charge.

Cell #3 (alkaline): If no other slots are in use the display goes out, then lights up again as if a cell has been freshly inserted. If another slot is already in use, it just goes straight back to the program request as if the charge request has not already been entered.

The last cell is doing what you describe. I think this means that your cells have such a high internal resistance they are outside the charger's test parameters. As others have indicated you would have to conclude your cells are in such bad shape they should be disposed of in the recycle bin and replaced with new ones.

Ken2step · Nov 24, 2009

TakeTheActive said:
IME, you have a *CRAP* cell with EXTREMELY high Internal Resistance.

Going by memory, without checking *ALL* of my records, IMO, there are (at least) 3 levels of Internal Resistance detected by the MH-C9000 during the 'Impedance Check' stage (i.e. first few seconds before attempting to charge):

LT ~2.10VDC: Will be accepted and charged.
- Within that group, I personally have 3 more classifications:

~1.60VDC: Healthy, vibrant, probably new;
provides GT 90% Capacity

~1.80VDC: Healthy, semi-vibrant, older - probably @ mid-life;
provides ~80-90% Capacity

~2.00VDC: 'Past Their Prime', old, probably @ end-of-life;
provides ~60-80% Capacity

.

GT ~2.10VDC and LT ~2.88VDC: Will not be accepted and charged.
Initially displays 'HIGH' but usually gives a voltage reading after repeated attempts.
.

GT ~2.88VDC: Will not be accepted and charged.
Consistantly 'blinks' and returns to 'Mode Selection';
Never displays 'HIGH';
Never gives a voltage reading.

After Charging them on the MH-C401FS, Discharge them on the MH-C9000 @:

1.0C

100mA

...and report back with the results.

While these tests are running, click on my Sig Line LINK and read the articles on Theory. They will give you a better understanding at to what is actually going on.

For any new to mid-life cells in the 1b and 1c categories above, read the articles about Storage Box Queens and try the 'fixes'. Sometimes you get lucky.

Have fun!

UPDATE (09/20/09): An old Rayovac 1600mAh non-LSD *CRAP* cell just registered 2.88VDC on my MH-C9000 (0H0AA).

Yea you got to really watch saying "never" as it seems to always bite you in the a**.....lol...thanks for the update!
Ken

Marc999 · Nov 7, 2011

TakeTheActive said:
IME, you have a *CRAP* cell with EXTREMELY high Internal Resistance.

Going by memory, without checking *ALL* of my records, IMO, there are (at least) 3 levels of Internal Resistance detected by the MH-C9000 during the 'Impedance Check' stage (i.e. first few seconds before attempting to charge):

LT ~2.10VDC: Will be accepted and charged.
- Within that group, I personally have 3 more classifications:

~1.60VDC: Healthy, vibrant, probably new;
provides GT 90% Capacity

~1.80VDC: Healthy, semi-vibrant, older - probably @ mid-life;
provides ~80-90% Capacity

~2.00VDC: 'Past Their Prime', old, probably @ end-of-life;
provides ~60-80% Capacity

.

GT ~2.10VDC and LT ~2.98VDC: Will not be accepted and charged.
Initially displays 'HIGH' but usually gives a voltage reading after repeated attempts.
.

GT ~2.98VDC: Will not be accepted and charged.
Consistantly 'blinks' and returns to 'Mode Selection';
Never displays 'HIGH';
Never gives a voltage reading.

Hello TTA, this is an old thread I found, recently googled to review the MH-C9000 impedance check voltage.
Early last night I put 4 Rayovac Hybrid AAAs in the charger for a Refresh/Analyze @ 400 charge / 200 discharge. In the morning I noticed 2 of the batteries said 'Done' and the other 2 were in 'Rest' mode. I figured something was amiss, so I pulled out all the batteries and an hour later put the 2 that had been 'Resting' back on the charger, in charge mode @ 500 ma. I went to rake leaves and 2.5 hours later came back to see what's up. One of the batteries said 'Done', the other was apparently struggling, sitting at 1.41 volts @ 155 minutes, overly warm to the touch.

I pulled both batteries, then did an impedance voltage check an hour later on the C9000, the really warm one was 1.82. The rest were 1.73, 1.71 and 1.70.

Safe to assume it's time to recycle, even though I'm below ~ 2.00v? The one battery especially seemed to be baking quite nicely on the charger lol, but not done.

Marc

TakeTheActive · Nov 7, 2011

Marc999 said:
Hello TTA, this is an old thread I found, recently googled to review the MH-C9000 impedance check voltage....

...I pulled both batteries, then did an impedance voltage check an hour later on the C9000, the really warm one was 1.82. The rest were 1.73, 1.71 and 1.70.

Safe to assume it's time to recycle, even though I'm below ~ 2.00v?

Because of their size, AAAs either start off ~0.1VDC higher than AAs with ICV, or get there very quickly (WRT my "MH-C9000 ICV Chart of 2009"). There is another member of CPF who *REALLY* attempts to give his AAAs TLC but laments that their ICV *STILL* climbs quicker than his AAs.

[I can't recall his UserID, but maybe he'll reply...]

As for your 4 Rayovacs, run a DISCHARGE @ 100mA and post the results. If it's ~700mAh, follow that with a 700mAh BREAK-IN and post those results. If it's lower than ~700mAh, use an appropriate lower BREAK-IN Capacity setting. You may have to repeat this for the ROV 'stuck' @ 1.41VDC during CHARGE. You may also want to LABEL your cells, so we can refer to ROV #1 for the 1.70VDC ICV, ..., and ROV #4 for the 1.82VDC ICV and 1.41VDC 'Stuck' during CHARGE episode.

The ICV=1.82VDC could be on it's last legs, OR a BREAK-IN could 'stir up' the chemicals a bit.

How often do you CYCLE these cells?
What is the mA draw of the device that you use them in?
Do you customarily run them down to ~0.9VDC 'Under Load', or do you 'Top Them Off'?
Do you always run 400/200mA R&As?
How old are the cells?
When did you run the last BREAK-IN?
What was their capacity on the last:
- R&A?
- BREAK-IN?

There are LOTS of variables involved before making the decision to RECYCLE them!

Marc999 · Nov 9, 2011

TakeTheActive said:
The ICV=1.82VDC could be on it's last legs, OR a BREAK-IN could 'stir up' the chemicals a bit.

How often do you CYCLE these cells?About next to never! They have been sitting in the Zts multi-mbt for ~ 1 year. I 'charged' them twice over that period. Prior to that they were used in battery operated single cell digital clocks for about 3 years. Occasional R&A over that time, once/year.

What is the mA draw of the device that you use them in? Not sure, quite low I imagine.

Do you customarily run them down to ~0.9VDC 'Under Load', or do you 'Top Them Off'? More than likely just that infrequent top off.

Do you always run 400/200mA R&As? For AAA's yes, it's the closest I can get to that .5C /.2C charge/discharge rate, rule of thumb. I tried out 500 ma the 2nd time just to see if that helped kick the batteries in the pants.

How old are the cells? Best guess is ~ 4 years.

When did you run the last BREAK-IN? Lol, this could be the deal breaker: ~ 4 years when first purchased.

What was their capacity on the last:

R&A? Hmm, that excel speadsheet is somewhere around I'm sure! I stopped recording cells a few years ago. Bad I know.

BREAK-IN? If memory serves me and I doubt it will in this case, ~ 710 - 740 mah newly purchased.

There are LOTS of variables involved before making the decision to RECYCLE them!

Thanks for the details and suggestions. I just tested out the impedance check voltage again this morning: 2 were sitting @ 1.67 and the other 2 were sitting @ 1.75. Odd, perhaps I didn't wait long enough after the charge, before I originally checked the imped. check voltages.

I've put them back on the charger, discharging @ 100 ma. Will post interim results, then Break-In results upon completion.

UPDATE: Nov.10/2011
Discharge on 4 Rayovac Hybrid AAA @ 100 ma: [~ 4 year old vintage].
(1) 652
(2) 650
(3) 648
(4) 702

Should I round all to 700 mah for the Break-In?
I'm going away for a couple days, so Break-In will have to wait, don't want to leave machine unattended for that long, but will post when I have results.

apagogeas · Nov 9, 2011

Regarding the IRC displayed by Maha, I may add another category in the range ~1.40-1.60, maybe call it "ultra vibrant low resistance cells":huh:. All of my newest AA batteries (eneloop, Energizer) which are now 1 year old fall in the range 1.40-1.50 (all started at 1.50 and after a few cycles dropped to 1.40-1.44). Any older battery I had which showed 1.80 and above, soon after (within a few months at most) turned to high and rejected by Maha, so for me this is a good indication that my battery will give up soon. Possibly the 0.5C charge rate was tough on them. However I've never seen any IRC value below 1.40. AAA batteries start from a higher IRC around +0.1 to 0.2 compared to AA.
One bit that needs clarification is when to measure that IRC. I have never found any clear statement to that. Based on my experience it makes a big difference if the battery is charged or discharged and if it is still warm during the IRC test. I only measure when the battery has been completely discharged to 0.9V@100mAh and rest for 30-60 minutes so I have the same starting point to compare all my cells IRC-wise. If the battery is warm/hot it will show a lower IRC, so not useful for any valid comparisons or life estimation.

To the initial post, you experience the case of a cell having IRC > 2.98 which produces this designed behaviour. Perfectly normal.

Sometimes if I leave the cell in for over 20 or so resets, the display finally reads "HIGH"

That's because at every restart the charger puts some current which in turn makes the cell get warm. A warm cell has a somehow reduced IRC. In your case it reached the limit 2.98 where high shows up. Once I had a cell with IRC 2.80. I made a bizzare (for my Maha) experiment: I inserted the cell and when High displayed, quickly removed it and reinserted to the charger. Believe it or not, the IRC got down to 2.05 (after 50-60 remove-insert) and finally the charger accepted the cell which was by that time quite hot. Luckily maha survived that torture

The cell did accept some charge and when left to cool down, IRC was back to 2.80. Such cells can't be rescued.

C9000 Resets As Soon As It Gets a Cell Reading

aef03

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PEU

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aef03

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aef03

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TakeTheActive

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Mr Happy

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TakeTheActive

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Mr Happy

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Ken2step

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Marc999

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TakeTheActive

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Marc999

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apagogeas

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