1st post fenix pd30 battery

xdsub

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Sep 3, 2009
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I need some help on choosing some rechargable batteries for my light. I want to get the ones that will give me the most output and the brightest light.

I recently ordered these off ebay. However they are too wide and wont fit. The diameter is too big I guess. If you guys have any suggestions please post. I want to be able if possible to use my current charger for the batteries I ordered.

Heres what I ordered. If anyone wants to pick them up off me let me know.

Batteries
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250479016010&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Charger
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250457465079&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Thanks
 

mdocod

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hello xdsub,

Welcome to CPF!

You ready for the can of worms you've opened up?

Don't worry... it's not too bad... well..............



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The PD30, and the previous generation P3D lights from fenix were really optimized around 2xCR123 cells. They will however run on a pair of 3.7V RCR123 cells but with dramatically reduced run-time. As you have found out, they are not bored to accept the 18650 size li-ion cell, and even if it did fit, it probably wouldn't function correctly anyways... The P3D series had a low-battery indicator function that would kick in right around 4-5V source power under a load. Which meant that if you put a single 3.7V cells in (it would have to be 17670 to fit) it would not operate correctly.... I'm pretty sure the PD30 works the same way.

-----------

Unfortunately, ebay li-ion cells and chargers are not closely followed here on CPF. For various good reasons.. They come out with a new label and a new name and a new claimed capacity rating every month, and we have no idea where they come from and what the quality really is. Li-Ion cells are generally safe, but have great explosive potential when proper quality control is not followed in manufacture proccess... The result is exactly what they probably wanted, a market that looks good to first time buyers that professionals won't waste their time trying to keep track of.

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The 18650 size cell is the desired platform to work on to maximize energy density. The trick is that you want to combine a known-good charger with good quality cells and a light that is designed to run on a 3.7V source properly. The PD30 is, unfortunately, not an appropriate platform for having an ideal rechargeable rig in this size class.

You'll have to decide at this point how dedicated you are to achieving that "18650 powered nirvana" that many flashaholics have adopted. For you, this probably means starting from scratch with a different flashlight.... I suppose you could use the cells for awhile but I would want to keep a really close eye on them with a multi-meter and also test the charger for proper charging methods before any long-term use.

-



-Eric
 

xdsub

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Wow long and good post. I am wanting to keep this light. Just wanting a good set of batteries and charger to use its not a life or death light i just use every now and then.

Thanks
 

Closet_Flashaholic

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Hello xdsub.

Before I made the move to 18650 batteries, I also purchased 2 lights that required 2 CR123 primary batteries in each one. Actually, I had never heard of 18650 batteries before joining this forum.

My 1st two LED lights are the original Gladius and a Fenix P3D. I quickly got tired of buying C123 primary (a.k.a. non-rechargeable) batteries. I my case, the Gladius wasn't rated for 3.7v RCR123 batteries.

My very first experience with rechargeable LiOn batteries were ones that were protected and had a 3.0V rating. I did this so that theoretically they would work in flashlights that were only rated for CR123 primaries (3.0vdc).

Note: RCR123 LiOn batteries have several different ranges of voltages. Typically they are 3.7 vdc (4.2v right after removing from the charger).

1) You need to make sure that the charger you are using correctly matches the nominal voltage of the batteries.

2) To a lesser extent the charger should not try to charge the batteries too quickly for their rated capacity.

You really need to be careful with LiOn batteries and their charging/discharging. Especially if the flashlight is multicell (more than 1 battery in series).

My 1st LiOn battery/charger purchase was done with buying a kit. The kit is:

http://www.thomasdistributing.com/s...html?SP_id=&osCsid=a98rm8a91donrsllit8gi3gna7

I haven't had any problems with these 2 kits. I haven't heard/read of any problems either. They aren't the quickest chargers on the market, but that's ok with me. Do not mix these chargers or batteries with other chargers or batteries.

Please realize that these batteries do not have a lot of capacity (compared to RCR3.7v LiOns or primary batteries), but they work well for me. I Purchased 2 sets of these and the 4 batteries are still in use today, over 4 years ago and they get used weekly in the 2 flashlights I described earlier.

DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT use these batteries in Surefire Incandescent lights (see warnings on the page in the link). But for LED lights, I have had no problems.

The other charger that I use for RCR123 3.7v (and 14500 and 18650) batteries is the AW-139. (Search for it, you can find them anywhere). If you purchase one brand new you should be ok. This model went through at least 3 revisions that changed charging voltages that some felt were unsafe. The most recent revision seems to be ok. I would recommend buying only from a reputable dealer (not ebay or amazon) that sells a lot of them so you will less likely to get "old stock" (one of the earlier revisions). I would also suggest to buy "protected" cells. You can read up on what this means. I have had very good luck with the "AW" brand manufacturer of these cells. Again, a search will show suppliers (a few are members of this forum).

My next 3.7v LiOn charger will be one by a company called PILA. It has a very good reputation on this forum. It's relatively expensive, but seems to be worth it.

http://www.pila-usa.com/pilaparts/charger.html

Long since then, for all new purchases, I have moved to AA-based flashlights that accept 14500 batteries since with 14500's they are comparable to RCR123 batteries in performance and are typically smaller diameter (although not always). For my "thrower" lights, a requirement is that they accept 18650 cells, otherwise, they don't make the 1st cut on my roster list.

This should be enough background info to get you going in the right direction. I strongly urge you to use the search function of the forums. There's an entire forum just for batteries and chargers. There is literally hundreds of years of experience, if not thousands, amongst all of the members/posts here. Good luck.
 

mdocod

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Hello Ward,

There are many variations of "3.0V" RCR123s out there.. The reason I have "3.0V" quoted like that is that, this is sort of a gimmick when you really analyze these types of cells.

Some of the "3.0V" rechargeable cells sold are actually 3.7V lithium cobalt cells that have a diode or simple voltage bucking circuit installed under a "false top." Some are lithium iron phosphate cells that are naturally about 3.2V cells being sold as 3.0V cells. In buck regulated LED applications, most of the time higher voltage is fine, like with the P3D and PD30, in fact, a pair of 3.7V cells will actually work fine in these lights. The important thing to understand here, is that in both cases of possible "3.0V" cells, the available stored energy is going to be lower than a regular 3.7V cell, and far lower than regular CR123s, since in the voltage bucked cell, the actual cell size has to be smaller to make room for the circuitry, and in the case of the lithium iron phosphate cell, the natural energy density of the chemistry is lower. Many people on the forums have had good success with both, but admit the severely short run-times in most applications. I'm personally not a very big fan of the voltage bucked cells because I believe they introduce unnecessary dangers. Most notably, the chargers required to charge them must have a higher termination voltage to over-come the voltage bucking circuit in reverse, this is fine provided the customer only uses this type of cell, but can lead to explosion/fire if the consumer uses the same charger with some other types of li-ion cells. I should also note, that neither of the rechargeable "3.0V" cell types actually replicate the behavior of a CR123 primary cell. The rechargeable cells operate under most loads with higher running voltage, which can destroy sensitive non-regulated configurations.

-------------

xdsub,

If you plan on keeping the PD30, the best rechargeable run-time will come from a pair of 3.7V protected RCR123s. To maximize the likelihood of the cells fitting without a problem you'll want to go with AW band cells as his are closer to the true dimensions of a CR123 than most other brands (most others are longer by several mm).... As for a charger, ideally speaking, a Pila IBC is the best safest option. Others are hit and miss, with anything else, it would be important to confirm that the charger is working safely and properly with a multi-meter.

-Eric
 

mdocod

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Hello Closet Flashaholic,

The latest revision of the WF-139, while better in some respects, has introduced another major flaw... If a cell that is near-full charge is installed on the charger, it totally misses termination and continues to charge at the normal maximum rate... Till... well... How far it will go hasn't been tested, but it definitely will take cell voltages to inappropriate levels.

The latest revision has a "ramp-down" mode for the finishing part of the charge that tries to simulate a true "CV" stage, that tends to kick in somewhere around 4.0V charging voltage. The charger has to kick into this ramp down mode in order to complete the charge with a proper termination. If the charge is initiated with a cell voltage that is above where the "ramp-down" mode normally starts, the whole proccess leading to proper termination is missed.

For 120V mains, the only charger I've seen that falls into the "cheap" category that seems to be reasonable for charging RCR123s, is the DSD. Not perfect, but can be made better with a Nokia cell phone power supply to eliminate the most likely failure points.

-Eric
 

Closet_Flashaholic

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Hello Closet Flashaholic,

The latest revision of the WF-139, while better in some respects, has introduced another major flaw... If a cell that is near-full charge is installed on the charger, it totally misses termination and continues to charge at the normal maximum rate... Till... well... How far it will go hasn't been tested, but it definitely will take cell voltages to inappropriate levels.

The latest revision has a "ramp-down" mode for the finishing part of the charge that tries to simulate a true "CV" stage, that tends to kick in somewhere around 4.0V charging voltage. The charger has to kick into this ramp down mode in order to complete the charge with a proper termination. If the charge is initiated with a cell voltage that is above where the "ramp-down" mode normally starts, the whole proccess leading to proper termination is missed.

For 120V mains, the only charger I've seen that falls into the "cheap" category that seems to be reasonable for charging RCR123s, is the DSD. Not perfect, but can be made better with a Nokia cell phone power supply to eliminate the most likely failure points.

-Eric

As far as the P3D accepting RCR123 3.7v batteries. I could never confirm this from fenix. None of the documentation that came with the light supports it and their website only states 123 primaries, so I didn't want to take a chance. At least the "3.0" v RCRs are closer to a primary voltage than 3.7v would be. I just wanted to be "safe" with my (then at the time) very expensive light.

http://www.fenixlight.com/flashlight/fenixp3d.htm


Thanks for the info (on the 3.0v RCRs) and the update on the AW-139. I was aware of the "diode" thing on the 3.0v RCRs, but I felt it was too much info overload for the OP. I always watch the AW-139 like a hawk when recharging anything in it. As soon at the leds go "green" the batteries come out. I don't trust many chargers at all. I look forward to the day when I "break down" and get a Pila IBC... Someday. sigh more money....
 
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Ward

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Hello mdocod,

What I know about my batteries is that they are actually 3.7v, which is reduced to 3.0v by a chip. I bought them as a set together with a charger and my PD30 from a local online store that's run by the official Fenix importer, so I assumed it would be fine. However, I've never read anything about having to take the batteries out of the charger the moment the leds turn green. As a result, they sometimes sit in there for some hours. Have I just been lucky up until now? Or could it be that the charger just stops charging when the cells are full?
 

mdocod

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Hello Closet Flashaholic,

The original P3D was tested by numerous 3rd parties as being able to handle upwards of 12V input. I'm assuming that the PD30 uses a similar circuit design. Keep in mind that the IBC will not properly charge your "3.0V" regulated cells.

-------

Hi Ward,

Someone would have to test the charger to determine if the charger stops properly. I've never tested any of the chargers for that type of cell before. They are supposed to have a termination around 4.4V... The way to test this would be to rig a multi-meter in series with the charge set to measure current and see if a trickle charge continues after the light turns green. This would probably require some external fixture to run the wiring as needed for the test.

-Eric
 
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ANDREAS FERRARI

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As far as the P3D accepting RCR123 3.7v batteries. I could never confirm this from fenix. None of the documentation that came with the light supports it and their website only states 123 primaries, so I didn't want to take a chance. At least the "3.0" v RCRs are closer to a primary voltage than 3.7v would be. I just wanted to be "safe" with my (then at the time) very expensive light.

For what it's worth I have been using my P3D daily for the last year and half using rechargeable rcr123a's with no problems.

Similar to these found on E-Bay.
 

wasabijim

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Feb 8, 2013
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I have never used rechargeable batteries for my Fenix PD30 but would like to start. I'm finding it quite confusing in figuring out what charger and batteries are best to use. Can anyone advise a good charger and batteries?
 
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