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Thread: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

  1. #31
    *Flashaholic* McGizmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    To avoid any further confusion, these paks are being offered to folks who already have a "PD" style head that they can use on them. I have no options available to make a complete light here.
    Build Prices .... some mods and builds (not 4 sale) "Nature can be cruel- but we don't have to be."~ Temple Grandin

  2. #32
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    To describe the behavior of a PD head + Clicky Pak more simply:

    Press Switch = on/off
    Turn Head = change brightness

    There is no way to "finesse" the UI to get more behaviors than that.

    - - -

    On a different note: Don, I think your shop should accidentally make a small run of Twisty Paks next, for those out there who want their McGizmos to be the absolute smallest they can get. Say, maybe 25 of 'em or thereabouts.

  3. #33
    *Flashaholic* McGizmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    The twisty pak isn't that much shorter than the PD pak. I see the real advantage to a twisty pak in reducing the number of potential ingress points of unwanted outside influences such as water. I can only focus in so many areas and my focus is elsewhere these days. I am also looking forward with the designs and the "x2 converter platform" is not in this view at present.

    I am looking forward to receiving a number of parts presently on order with the machine shop and don't relish any accidents or miscommunications. I may well end up the proud owner of most of these "C" paks but I can always come up with something to do with them if need be.
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  4. #34
    Flashaholic* Barbarian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Received my C-Pak today. Very sweet!

    I like the idea of having a choice between the clicky pak and the regular piston drive. It is nice to pull the light of your pocket and easily have constant high with a simple one handed click.

    I think the extra length of the C-Pak is perfect for the fall and winter months as I will carry mine in my jacket ready for full blast when needed. The extra length will also come in very handy when wearing gloves because that extra length will allow the head to clear a gloved hand.

    For comparison sake, this C-Pak set-up is still shorter than the Surefire L1 and only about a quarter inch longer than the Ra Clicky so it can still be pocketed in your pants with relative ease. I highly recommend this Pak guys.

    Thanks Don.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Arrived today, Don. Thank you! Wonderful with LS27 head, as well as the Mule. A little more to hold onto. Can't wait to give it a workout! Good point, Barbarian, great with gloves... Hadn't thought of that.

  6. #36
    nfetterly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Mine arrive today too thanks! While I love the piston drive I like the additional length of this Pak.

    Hopefully your machine shop can turn out some 17670/18650 Paks!! Now that would really be SWEET !!


  7. #37
    Flashaholic* Scottiver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    So do these still work the same as a twisty if you click the light on and then twist on - twist off? Same one handed operation possible?

  8. #38
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottiver View Post
    So do these still work the same as a twisty if you click the light on and then twist on - twist off? Same one handed operation possible?
    Yes. There is no software in the PD lights, only hardware. With a PD head and a Clicky Pak, it's basically a twisty with a lockout tailswitch.

  9. #39
    Flashaholic* Scottiver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Interesting, thanks.

  10. #40
    *Flashaholic* McGizmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    I am kind of surprised that someone hasn't posted an idea here. I figured I'd be proactive and mention it myself. It is an idea I had quite a while ago but since I had cleverly let all of these C paks get away from me, I wasn't in a position to give it a try. As it turned out, I never secured access to the GDuP converters from Wayne so it became moot anyway.

    I built a LunaSol 20 head that used the GDuP converter for the Osram Dragon LED. This head worked on the PD pak but it was too finicky and uncontrollable in regards to cycling through the three levels on high. I think it would have been much tamer and even shown real merit had I tried it on a C pak. I don't know what even happened to that head.

    I have this idea for what I would call a LunaSol Eclipse that would consist of a LunaSol 20 head on one of these C paks. I would set the drive level of the three Nichias lower than the present case for greater run time and a lower low flood. With the head tight and then cracked off just a tad, you could be certain that the clickie switch would allow you momentary or latched on of this low level flood. With the heat tight on the pak, you would be certain of momentary or latched on of both the Nichias as well as the high power LED at the previous selected level of output. You would change the output level of the center LED by short off cycles initiated by the clickie switch.

    On the other hand, you could latch the clickie in the on position and then you would have a twisty head that could take you from off to low Nichia flood and then into a higher output with combined low flood and collimated light of three possible output levels; cycled through by quick twists off and then back on.

    This is an idea I do plan to explore but I am also going to wait and see if the XP-G wouldn't serve better as the high power LED in the center. I think the light is doable but I am also very certain that it would be a real PITA to assemble and whether it has merit really needs to be determined......
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  11. #41
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Don,

    Great idea. I like it.

    BTW, I got my paks in the other day they look and work great.

    Thanks for the offerings.
    "Please don't dominate the rap Jack, if you've got nothing new to say." - Jerry

  12. #42
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    I did have that idea a couple of days ago, but my ideas always seem to be impractical for one reason or another, so I kept it to myself. Oh well.

    The Lunasol is two lights in one, unlike the other PD lights, so having a more complex UI that allows selecting an emitter as well as a brightness would be a plus. If I were going to make one myself, I would have at least 2 brightness modes on the Nichias, and 2 or 3 brightness modes on the center emitter. (Depending on what's available now, a tiny R2 might be a better choice than a Golden Dragon, I dunno.)

    Another idea I had was to make the same sort of light, but use a PD-S head with a Nichia 083b epoxied to the center of the glass. The Nichia would provide the high-quality, low-brightness flood illumination, and some other higher-powered emitter would sit back behind it to provide high-quantity throw illumination. The Nichia would block some of the direct emission (i.e. the spill) from the focused emitter, but that would be made up for by the Nichia's own spill. The reflected emission (i.e. the hotspot) would remain unobstructed and would provide a nice clean hotspot.

    In practice, the way the driver would behave in my little hypothetical scenario is so:

    Kilroy only: Clicking cycles between low and high flood from the Nichia.
    Kilroy + ring: Nichia defaults to high flood, clicking cycles between low and high spot from whatever the focused emitter is.

    There is the issue of getting power to the Nichia if it's epoxied to the glass, but that's not too hard; run the thinnest possible wiring to it, one wire on each side, with either transparent insulation or no insulation at all. (Nothing for the wires to touch anyway.) Cut two small notches in either side of the lip of the reflector, underneath where the O-ring sits, and run the wires to the Nichia through the notches behind the O-ring. Leave enough slack in the wires that the glass can be lifted out and pulled off to the side when necessary. Other than that, assembly would be the same as any regular PD-S/XR19 head.
    Last edited by fyrstormer; 10-13-2009 at 05:45 AM.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    I think a two-stage clicky would work extremely well with an LS20 or any PD light for that matter. You then end up with 4 easily selectable levels. The downside is the decreased efficiency of using a resistor in the tailcap.

    The 3-stage driver for the center emitter is definitely a neat idea and I believe you have mentioned it in another thread elsewhere Don.

    If you had infinite resources and time, and could design a new driver for the lights, I think a good choice would be to make a driver that toggles between high and low current modes when you quickly cycle off. In the case of a regular Ti PD-S, you keep the normal two stage operation of the light, but then a quick on off cycle, would toggle between low and high current modes, giving you a 4-level light. I think this would be sufficiently simple that it would work well with the piston pak. It would probably be best to only enable the high-low current toggle on the Kilroy portion of the circuit. Of course in practice, it may be a complete disaster.

  14. #44
    Flashaholic* UnderTheWeepingMoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    I recently sold my LS27 but would've probably kept it had I known this little surprise wave was coming. I think the larger size of the C Pak would make the LS20 too large for my EDC but it would really help the balance of the LS27.

    Don, the LunaSol eclipse sounds like an interesting concept but I would love to see it done with an LS27 head. I loved the beautifully smooth, warm flood of the LS27 but thought it felt awkward with the large head and small PD Pak. Its high mode could also have been a bit brighter, which would be solved using the three-stage driver. I would pick up one of those lights in a heartbeat.
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  15. #45
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Email sent for purchase of 1 C-Pak.

  16. #46

    Party Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Picked up my Ti C Pak today. Great job Don. Glad to have this extra option for my PD and Lunasols.

  17. #47
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Quote Originally Posted by StrayLight View Post
    Equal parts comfort and aesthetics. I don't think clearance is an issue, even with large fingers, given the distance needed to engage the McClicky switch. Having owned both designs (and I would hazard a guess that this new McLuxIII C-Pak has an identical tail/switch to the Ti E-series clicky bodies) I think the chamfered tail naturally guides one's thumb to better engage the switch along its axis of motion. Off-axis contact with the switch, and the perceived lateral play that caused, is why I added an aftermarket tailguard to my SF U2. I think the same applies here.
    Now that I have my Haiku (which has the chamfer) and my Mule (which doesn't), I can see what you mean. I think the effect is pretty much entirely psychological -- neither is really a tactical light, so I'm not sure the effect of "off-axis contact" really has any meaningful impact -- but the chamfered tailcap definitely seems nicer, and it definitely looks more solid. At any rate, it's definitely worth the extra 5c that the raw materials probably cost.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Something that I always thought would be cool would be a reprogramming of the PD-S circuit to make it a 3 level light. My understanding is that in the PD-S (unlike the LS) the main contact ring is nothing more than a signal switch and the kilroy carries the current. The main contact ring just tells the circuit to go to the "other" mode, which happens to be high. I wonder if it is possible to reprogram it so that it signals the circuit to switch between 3 modes, instead of to just a single high mode.

    That way, I could twist the light on the kilroy setting and then hard press switch between 3 modes. It would also allow me to hold the light on any of the high-med-low modes by just light pressing, instead of the constant hard press currently needed to keep the light on high. I am able to keep the light kilroy pressure on for a long time, but I can only hold the fully depressed state for a minute or two at a time.

    Another benefit for this approach is that the light could have both momentary and the capability to switch the light without going through an off-cycle. I really like the way reverse clickies can quickly switch without clicking through an off cycle. On the other hand, momentary is really useful for forward clickies. I think this modification to the PD-S would be able to acheive both.

  19. #49
    Flashaholic Dog Chaser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Quote Originally Posted by brucec View Post
    My understanding is that in the PD-S (unlike the LS) the main contact ring is nothing more than a signal switch and the kilroy carries the current. The main contact ring just tells the circuit to go to the "other" mode, which happens to be high.
    I don't think this is correct. My understanding is that the main contact ring completes a circuit that bypasses a resister that exists in the circuit that the kilroy uses. I may well be wrong, but that's the way I always thought it worked.
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  20. #50
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    On the PD-S and the XR19, both the kilroy and the ring feed power into the same constant-current driver. When only the kilroy is contacting the battery tube, a PWM processor flickers the emitter very fast to reduce the brightness; when both the kilroy and the ring are contacting, the PWM is disabled and the LED is driven constantly On the Lunasol, there are two physically separate constant-current drivers, one for the Nichia LEDs and one for the main LED, with no PWM used at all. (At least, that's what I've been able to observe from taking my lights apart partway.) I don't know how the older aluminum PD lights work, but they probably work the same as the PD-S.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Don, I did think of something similar when I saw the C-pak...but it's great to have you mention it as that means great chance of something like it coming to fruition! =D

    Another thing I had thought of was a 'double Kilroy', a double nose as opposed to a double chin, as it were, for a bomb-proof, electronics-free tri-level. Because I think a lower low is definitely useful for the wide beam, whereas when I want a throwy beam, I want as much throw as I can get?

    Another suggestion (since we're kind of on the topic of LS20 here), is to take a look at using an optic for the LS20 high-beam? Such as the Peak narrow optics, which fit in a AAA-sized head...to really maximize the flood v/s throw design ethic of the LS20!

    Btw, does that mean that you have more LS20's in the works Don? Didn't seem like it from the final posts on your last LS20 wave thread, but hope it's so! =D
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  22. #52
    *Flashaholic* McGizmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    On the PD-S and the XR19, both the kilroy and the ring feed power into the same constant-current driver. When only the kilroy is contacting the battery tube, a PWM processor flickers the emitter very fast to reduce the brightness; when both the kilroy and the ring are contacting, the PWM is disabled and the LED is driven constantly.....
    Not true. BruceC has it right. Kilroy completes the ground circuit and the converter is operational. It runs with a low constant current output to the LED (no PWM). When the contact ring is connected to ground, it sends a signal to the converter which then changes the constant current output level to the high setting.

    I experimented with three level outputs back when I was using the McE2S 2 speed tailcaps. That experience alerted me to the problems inherent in a linear (displacement on the Z axis) activation going from two speed to three speed. For good ergonomics, not only do you need to add further displacement but you also want to ramp up the required activation force required so you can feel the levels as well as see them. In a purely twisty activation, this is a non issue because it is easy to twist and stop twisting when the desired level is met.

    I want to highlight that you guys can come up with all sorts of ideas and I can come up with a few myself. However, unless we can follow through with these ideas with a viable design which includes the mechanical (I have some abilities on this level) as well as the electronic circuit (I have no abilities here beyond suggesting ideas to someone else). A few of you may have no problem designing these converter boards but they are black boxes to me and certainly not readily available at low or no cost for experimentation!?!?!

    I am going to build a LunaSol 20 Eclipse as mentioned but I am going to gut an existing light I have on hand to accomplish this. I have no plans at present for any PD or LunaSol ("x2" converter series) lights.

    Wayne Y designed all of the "x2" converters I have used and apart from some bumps in the road we encountered along the way, they have proven themselves to be quite reliable and viable. However, that chapter is now history and I don't consider these converters available to me aside from the last one which is the BBM, mother converter (3 mm Nichia driver) used in the LunaSol lights. I am going to couple the BBM with the 3S converter which is also available to me, in the LunaSol Eclipse proto.

    Realistically I may not be doing anymore PD pack style lights and this is due to converter availability. If I really thought I needed a new converter and was willing to pay for the R&D and NRE in bringing one about, I could. A retro visit to build a small wave for those who missed out when the PD's were contemporary though would not support or fund a new converter.

    The Arc 6 is a light that addressed three levels from the "x2" platform and I think rather well from an ergonomic and reasonable UI approach. It came to market in a rather odd and disruptive way, IMHO and to this day seems to be under a cloud and hampered. None of my business though....
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  23. #53
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Quote Originally Posted by McGizmo View Post
    I have no plans at present for any PD or LunaSol ("x2" converter series) lights.

    Realistically I may not be doing anymore PD pack style lights
    'tis a sad day in pistonville...

  24. #54

    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Have you ever thought of possibly collaborating with Milkyspit with one of his Acorn drivers? Great functionality in terms of programmability. I had him program a light with a simple n-level UI - to get to level n, tap (<250 ms) n number of times, then click/latch on. The next time the light is clicked on, it will come on at that level. One beauty of this UI was that if one tapped > n times, then it would simply not change brightness levels, allowing you to do a 'manual' strobe still of sorts.
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  25. #55
    Flashaholic* coloradogps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    That that would be nice!

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  26. #56
    *Flashaholic* McGizmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmc View Post
    Have you ever thought of possibly collaborating with Milkyspit with one of his Acorn drivers? Great functionality in terms of programmability. I had him program a light with a simple n-level UI - to get to level n, tap (<250 ms) n number of times, then click/latch on. The next time the light is clicked on, it will come on at that level. One beauty of this UI was that if one tapped > n times, then it would simply not change brightness levels, allowing you to do a 'manual' strobe still of sorts.
    I am quite happy with the 3S converter I am using right now and I don't think the UI could get any more intuitive or easy. Tapping, pressing and programing are all cool for many and I won't dispute the features that can be made available. However, these are not my cup of tea nor do I feel any need or desire to get involved with them.
    Build Prices .... some mods and builds (not 4 sale) "Nature can be cruel- but we don't have to be."~ Temple Grandin

  27. #57

    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Gotcha. Having never used the 3S I can't speak to it, but given your simplicity and bombproof design preferences, I'm sure it's swell =)
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  28. #58
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Quote Originally Posted by McGizmo View Post
    Not true. BruceC has it right. Kilroy completes the ground circuit and the converter is operational. It runs with a low constant current output to the LED (no PWM). When the contact ring is connected to ground, it sends a signal to the converter which then changes the constant current output level to the high setting.
    I don't want to get in an argument with you about your own product, but on my PD-S (which is the same as all the rest, as far as I know) I can clearly see the LED flickering rapidly when I turn it on in low mode and wave it around, exactly the same as I see with the Haiku in low or medium modes, and with my PF Tasklight Two which uses the fluPIC driver. If that high-speed flickering isn't PWM, then I must be misunderstanding the concept of PWM; if so, someone please correct me.[/QUOTE]

  29. #59

    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    fyr, you might have dirty contacts that when jostled in being waved around, that cause the contact to disconnect intermittently?
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  30. #60
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ti "C" pak for PD's and LunaSols

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmc View Post
    fyr, you might have dirty contacts that when jostled in being waved around, that cause the contact to disconnect intermittently?
    No, it's too even, and the contacts are nice and shiny besides. I can just barely see it when I wave the light around as fast as I dare, but it's clearly flickering at a controlled rate. If there is an input current resistor in play, it could be causing the induction coil to not charge fully and then discharge before the next charge cycle begins, but I'm using RCR123s so the voltage should be high enough to bypass the boost circuit entirely when the battery is fresh. I'll try to take a picture of what I'm seeing when I get home tonight.

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