Inexperienced Stupid Knife Question

[Raoul_Duke]

How come more of you who have large knife collections have not gotten this system?

Money...or lack of, (without compremising my lifestyle. )

I figured it would go down in price maybee
But the years went by, the ££ dropped Vs $$ and The Edgepro went up in price

& Every time I had the ££, a new knife would be in my reach...I'd get into hotwires, or somebody would start the Ellephant collection mindgames...or such like, so I would spend all my $$$ on that

So I made do with what I had to hand...and used my hard work to get an edge.

Still looking at getting one from the US though.

[LuxLuthor]

I'll let you know how it works starting with a novice.

[kwkarth]

I'll let you know how it works starting with a novice.

I'm sure it will work fine Lux!
Did you get the Edge Pro or the Apex system? Which model?

[LuxLuthor]

I'm sure it will work fine Lux!
Did you get the Edge Pro or the Apex system? Which model?

I got the Pro Kit 2 package. I thought seriously about getting the scissors attachment, but figured I could add that later if needed.

What do you use the polishing tapes for?

[Patriot]

What do you use the polishing tapes for?

It used for different levels of edge finishing Lux, since the tapes run finer than the stones. You'll need to attach them to the backs of aluminum or glass blanks.

[kwkarth]

I got the Pro Kit 2 package. I thought seriously about getting the scissors attachment, but figured I could add that later if needed.

What do you use the polishing tapes for?

What Patriot said! The tapes are sort of the modern equivalent of stropping.

[themclush]

I have a handful of knives from the major makers.
Current favorite is a "Twitch" from SOG. It is well made and opens at a touch. I don't believe it would be much use in a knife fight, but for those I carry a .45.

[LuxLuthor]

What Patriot said! The tapes are sort of the modern equivalent of stropping.

But I mean is it to get that final split a hair edge, or is it likely the stones will get it that far?

[kwkarth]

But I mean is it to get that final split a hair edge, or is it likely the stones will get it that far?

With the kit you have, you can get shaving sharp, but the tapes will let you sharpen up enough to split hairs lengthwise.

I started collecting knives back in the '60s, and back then, was a bit more steady with my hands, so I freehand sharpened all of them with just a Gerber folding steel. They were all easily shaving sharp. Now I doubt I could do the same thing. Your setup looks great because it maintains the exact angle from start to finish. That's the critical piece of the puzzle. You should be able to touch up a knife in a couple of minutes with that and like they say, a five second touch up on a fine ceramic stick will be all you need most of the time.

Very cool!

[commodorewheeler]

I have never bought a "major" knife. I think the only knives I have ever bought was a Swiss Army and a Rapala fishing filet knife. Sometimes I read some posts in this section, and I try to figure how I would use a nice knife. It's hard to imagine having it in my pocket all the time, and I can't imagine using it as a defensive weapon....I'd surely poke my own eye out somehow. I'm more of a run than fight kind of a guy, and have never been in a fight in my life.

Do you guys get them to a large degree as an admiration of the quality/workmanship....almost being like a shelf queen?

I collect knives in large part because I admire the craftsmanship that goes into a handmade piece, but I carry and use a small percentage of my collection as well. I'm not a big self-defense kind of guy either, but a well made custom knife makes a great tool to have around.

[Raoul_Duke]

With the kit you have, you can get shaving sharp, but the tapes will let you sharpen up enough to split hairs lengthwise.

The Man Speaks the Truth. Hairs split or whittled length wize is possible

The coarse blade will slice better, but the Polished blade will push though things better.

You have to find the ballance. ( You may need more knives for this. )

Try it on a few knives you dont want to screw up the finish on untill proficient!!

[kwkarth]

The Man Speaks the Truth. Hairs split or whittled length wize is possible

The coarse blade will slice better, but the Polished blade will push though things better.

You have to find the ballance. ( You may need more knives for this. )

Try it on a few knives you dont want to screw up the finish on untill proficient!!

I love it when I'm in kitchen prepping something, and I grab one of my Shun's and rather than having to slice through something, I just lay the blade to something and sort of guide the blade through whatever I'm cutting, almost letting gravity do the work.

[Patriot]

But I mean is it to get that final split a hair edge, or is it likely the stones will get it that far?

kwkarth already gave a great answer, but to give the question some relevance, using your new sharpener and a 600 grit stone will probably give you the sharpest knife edge that you've ever experienced. It's certainly enough for a great utility or kitchen edge anyway. You can imaging how incredible sharp the edge could be polished even using 2000 grit tape, never mind 4000 or 6000.

I'm slightly jealous btw....

[LuxLuthor]

I collect knives in large part because I admire the craftsmanship that goes into a handmade piece, but I carry and use a small percentage of my collection as well. I'm not a big self-defense kind of guy either, but a well made custom knife makes a great tool to have around.

For me personally, that Lone Wolf .45 was probably the perfect recommendation. I love the quality, blade action/locking, sharpness (I have never known in a knife), fine detailing...and at a comparatively modest price to see if it was going to be an fitting interest. Getting the Edge Pro became a pretty easy decision afterwards....so I hear what you and others are saying now.

The Man Speaks the Truth. Hairs split or whittled length wize is possible

With the kit you have, you can get shaving sharp, but the tapes will let you sharpen up enough to split hairs lengthwise.

I started collecting knives back in the '60s, and back then, was a bit more steady with my hands, so I freehand sharpened all of them with just a Gerber folding steel. They were all easily shaving sharp. Now I doubt I could do the same thing. Your setup looks great because it maintains the exact angle from start to finish. That's the critical piece of the puzzle. You should be able to touch up a knife in a couple of minutes with that and like they say, a five second touch up on a fine ceramic stick will be all you need most of the time.

Very cool!

I can't even imagine that. At this point, that sounds like something from The Matrix. Do you have to take the blue pill first?

The coarse blade will slice better, but the Polished blade will push though things better.

I realize I don't have these distinctions to understand what you are saying. I only have common kitchen knives like you would buy a set at Sears or Macys. I can't remember the last time I bought a kitchen, table, or steak knife. If I am slicing/dicing vegetables I use the same knife I would use to cut a whole tenderloin into filet mignons for grilling. Some knives have serations on them, but I don't understand what the real intended purpose of those are either.

The only knife I probably do understand is my bread knife for when I bake my own stone ground hard red winter wheat bread.

You have to find the ballance. ( You may need more knives for this. )

I think that is a forgone conclusion. The fun thing will be to see what this sharpener does on some old knives. When I say old knives here is thumb to high res photo of pretty much all the kitchen knives I have, most of them are dull as a table flatware knife, unless I did the Smith sharpener edge I just got.

Try it on a few knives you dont want to screw up the finish on untill proficient!!

No shortage of "El Crappo" knives in above photo.

[kwkarth]

No shortage of "El Crappo" knives in above photo.

Lux, I think you may be surprised with the edge you can get on those Old Chicago high carbon knives you've got. They take a pretty nice edge for an inexpensive knife.

[LuxLuthor]

Lux, I think you may be surprised with the edge you can get on those Old Chicago high carbon knives you've got. They take a pretty nice edge for an inexpensive knife.

Is that an "Al Capone" colloquial term, as I didn't see that brand name on any in that photo? I'm not sure what is a "high carbon knife."

You got my interest in reading about those Shun Knives. I see in the 8" Chef size, there is the Classic, Pro-2, Ken Onion, and Elite model --but which is the best? Seems like Elite is better from reading this link, but the Pro-2 is the most expensive.

[Patriot]

I realize I don't have these distinctions to understand what you are saying. I only have common kitchen knives like you would buy a set at Sears or Macys. I can't remember the last time I bought a kitchen, table, or steak knife. If I am slicing/dicing vegetables I use the same knife I would use to cut a whole tenderloin into filet mignons for grilling. Some knives have serations on them, but I don't understand what the real intended purpose of those are either.

What Raoul Duke was referring to when he made the comment:

Originally Posted by Raoul_Duke
The coarse blade will slice better, but the Polished blade will push though things better.

.....was that the stone finished edges will slice better when drawn across a surface, think, loaf of bread. This is because it has serrations on a microscopic scale which acts as a saw blade. Drawing the cutting edge is very similar to drawing a cut with a saw blade or a serrated bread knife. The polished edges, those fished with polishing tape, leave progressively less micro texture on the cutting edge. This extremely smooth edge doesn't work as well in a drawing action for most materials but works incredibly well for press cuts. Think of pushing through an apple or cutting a piece of para cord while it's flat on a wooden workbench. Polished edges are great on smaller blade lengths were you simply don't have a lot of room to draw back with. On longer blades you often have the option for a long pull cut, like you'd use cutting through steak so a polished edge may not be critical or even desired.




By the way Lux, those blades in your picture are going to sharpen up just fine. In fact, I think you'll be mighty impressed!

[LuxLuthor]

Perfect explanation & examples of slice/push. Thank you sir! So hold off on the Shuns, then?

It will be interesting to see what is on the DVD that comes with the Edge Pro.

[Patriot]

Perfect explanation & examples of slice/push. Thank you sir! So hold off on the Shuns, then?

It will be interesting to see what is on the DVD that comes with the Edge Pro.

You'll never hear the phrase, "hold off" from me brother.

Given that the DVD for the $45 Spyderco Sharpmaker is pretty decent, My guess is that the DVD that comes with your rig is going to cover everything and then some.

[stallion2]

[QUOTE=LuxLuthor;3129396]Is that an "Al Capone" colloquial term, as I didn't see that brand name on any in that photo? I'm not sure what is a "high carbon knife."

QUOTE]

it means that the alloy used has a relatively high concentration of carbon. this 'high' range is typically anywhere between 0.4-0.9% carbon which obviously doesn't sound like much but thats all it takes. the higher the carbon, the harder the steel. the advantage to typical stainless steel w/ a high carbon content is that its durable, holds its edge for a relatively long time and does so w/out being expensive like some more exotic alloys. the down side is that more carbon means there is less of some other compound in the alloy, usually chromium which is the compound responsible for resisting rust. in addition the presence of carbon making the metal harder also makes it more brittle. last, harder metals take longer to sharpen...but w/ the edge kit you bought...WOW! i'd say you're definitely taking the plunge.

[kwkarth]

Is that an "Al Capone" colloquial term, as I didn't see that brand name on any in that photo? I'm not sure what is a "high carbon knife."

You got my interest in reading about those Shun Knives. I see in the 8" Chef size, there is the Classic, Pro-2, Ken Onion, and Elite model --but which is the best? Seems like Elite is better from reading this link, but the Pro-2 is the most expensive.

Lol! The ones with the old faded wood handles. They used to be sold under the "Old Chicago" brand name and the steel, though not rustfree, is usually better for edge holding than most of the stainless knives you can buy today.

See my PM about Shun model comparison. The Kaji model line seems to have the best steel. I love the look of the Ken Onion models, but they don't fit my hand as well as the Classics, so that's mostly what I use. Is that an Analon pan I see on the left? Best non stick pans I've ever used!

[kwkarth]

Perfect explanation & examples of slice/push. Thank you sir! So hold off on the Shuns, then?

It will be interesting to see what is on the DVD that comes with the Edge Pro.

Heh, I was cutting through a 4" hard salami the other day, and the knife just about fell through the stuff. I could have made paper thin slices if I had wanted to. BTW, a sharp knife is MUCH safer than a dull one. I goes where you direct it, without you having to apply too much pressure. You're always in control that way. Always respect the edge.

[LuxLuthor]

Lol! The ones with the old faded wood handles. They used to be sold under the "Old Chicago" brand name and the steel, though not rustfree, is usually better for edge holding than most of the stainless knives you can buy today.

See my PM about Shun model comparison. The Kaji model line seems to have the best steel. I love the look of the Ken Onion models, but they don't fit my hand as well as the Classics, so that's mostly what I use. Is that an Analon pan I see on the left? Best non stick pans I've ever used!

Yeah that is the Calphalon with the lifetime warranty, which I already took them up on once. No receipt or box needed.

I called the KAI USA office today, and apparently the Elite and Kaji models are the highest quality steel, with Kaji being only sold at Sonoma, and Elite elsewhere. I'm thinking seriously about getting this set.

[kwkarth]

Yeah that is the Calphalon with the lifetime warranty, which I already took them up on once. No receipt or box needed.

I called the KAI USA office today, and apparently the Elite and Kaji models are the highest quality steel, with Kaji being only sold at Sonoma, and Elite elsewhere. I'm thinking seriously about getting this set.

That's a nice looking set!

[kwkarth]

Yeah that is the Calphalon with the lifetime warranty, which I already took them up on once. No receipt or box needed.

I called the KAI USA office today, and apparently the Elite and Kaji models are the highest quality steel, with Kaji being only sold at Sonoma, and Elite elsewhere. I'm thinking seriously about getting this set.

Ya know, you're dangerous! You got me to looking at those knives and I found an even higher quality level from Shun...
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/produ...un%7Ccutshnmei



Shun Bob Kramer Meiji
To create this exclusive collection, legendary Japanese knifemaker Shun partnered with the only master bladesmith in the U.S. who specializes in kitchen cutlery: Bob Kramer.

Cutlery aficionados will wait years for a Kramer original – knives expertly tempered by Kramer's ten years of experience in professional kitchens and 15 years of building custom cutlery. Our collection, based on his hand-forged Meiji line, features Kramer's unrivaled craftsmanship, combined with Shun's knowledge of centuries-old Japanese knife-making traditions. This ultradurable razor-sharp chef's knife is the perfect size, shape and heft for chopping, dicing and mincing.

An SG-2 steel cutting core is clad in brilliant 64-layer nickel stainless steel, yielding a supersharp blade with the look of Damascus steel. The smooth contoured handle is made entirely of richly grained cocobolo PakkaWood. 8" blade.

[LuxLuthor]

LOL! It is not easy to find out the exact facts of what is different between all these various categories of Shun knives.

I started reading about the Classic line from this link:

The Shun Classic Series is easily identified by its beautiful wood grain look from the Damascus steel. The blade core, VG-10 super steel, is composed of carbon, chromium, vanadium, manganese, cobalt and molybdenum. This is clad with 16 layers of SUS410 high-carbon stainless steel on each side, creating a 33 layer rust-free Damascus look. This distinctive looking profile results is less friction when slicing, resulting in cleaner cuts and better flavor. Choose from traditional European shapes or the newly designed 'Alton's Angle' resulting in a more efficient slice for quicker food preparation.

The woman from KAI-USA said basically, you can use price as your guide of the quality...but I didn't even see the Meiji listed at their site here. Holy Moly on that model's price....a whole other quantum leap beyond even the Elite/Kaji. I may have to call KAI back again and have more conversations. I wonder how many layers are on the Elite/Kaji. I can see I need to get much more into this one brand. LOL!

Some good FAQ's here on their care. It is no longer a question of "if" I will get a Shun. It is now a question of which one(s).

I noticed this one negative review where the guy gave a Kaji a 1 star rating because he had issues with handle rivets being "an absolute mecca for bacteria." LOL! People are funny, and so transparent.

Hmmm....this review of the Elite line says:

All Shun knives in the Elite series feature blades made with of a unique core of SG2, an exotic Japanese powdered steel. The advantage of powdered steel is that every element used to create it is evenly blended, eliminating weak spots and imperfections. The high density and ideal grain structure of the resulting SG-2 allows Shun to temper their steel to and extremely high hardness for an exceedingly sharp, smooth and durable blade. This amazing metal means that Elite series Shun knives stay sharp several times longer than comparable stainless cutlery. The knife is then clad with two layers of SUS410 - a softer stainless steel that provides strength, flexibility and corrosion protection. The ambidextrous PakkaWood handle is made by fusing layers of birch with a waterproof resin.

So it is now a question of comparing "two layers of SUS410" in Elite to "64-layer nickel stainless steel" in Meiji line. If there is a waiting line for Bob Kramer knives, that may explain some of the price difference.

Funny, and informative YouTube video.

[kwkarth]

LOL! It is not easy to find out the exact facts of what is different between all these various categories of Shun knives.

I started reading about the Classic line from this link:

The woman from KAI-USA said basically, you can use price as your guide of the quality...but I didn't even see the Meiji listed at their site here. Holy Moly on that model's price....a whole other quantum leap beyond even the Elite/Kaji. I may have to call KAI back again and have more conversations. I wonder how many layers are on the Elite/Kaji. I can see I need to get much more into this one brand. LOL!

Some good FAQ's here on their care. It is no longer a question of "if" I will get a Shun. It is now a question of which one(s).

I noticed this one negative review where the guy gave a Kaji a 1 star rating because he had issues with handle rivets being "an absolute mecca for bacteria." LOL! People are funny, and so transparent.

Hmmm....this review of the Elite line says:

So it is now a question of comparing "two layers of SUS410" in Elite to "64-layer nickel stainless steel" in Meiji line. If there is a waiting line for Bob Kramer knives, that may explain some of the price difference.

Funny, and informative YouTube video.

Ah, Good old Alton Brown, the man of cooking science renown. He's one of my favorites! For those of you that are old enough, Alton Brown is the Don Herbert of cooking. Anybody else remember Don Herbert?

As far as the complaint about the rivet... That guy needs to keep his knife handles out of the food! They'll cut better that way too!!

[LuxLuthor]

LOL! I think I now know about as much as you can find out after two more phone calls to several people at Kai. There is one other knife on the list at Sonoma, namely Michel Bras that is made in partnership with Shun, even more expensive than Meiji (however it does not use the SG-2 steel)

Classic has core of VG-10 with 32 folded layers giving the Damascus appearance.

Elite uses the SG-2 with 2 clad layers of 410A Stainless

Kaji uses SG-2 with 32 folded clad layers also giving the Damascus appearance. It is a bit heavier with the larger tang at end of symetrical (not D shaped) slightly curved handle and two rivets.

Meiji uses SG-2 with 64 folded layers, yet is a bit lighter than Kaji, and has the straighter profile and handle similar to classic. The additional layers give more side texturing to slightly reduce drag. She said on a practical basis it doesn't perform significantly better than Kaji. (Especially at the double price)

So, my instinct without feeling/seeing them in person is leaning towards the Kaji. The nearest Sonoma is an hour's drive. I'm trying to decide if it is worth driving to try them, or just order.

[Patriot]

If it was me I'd just order. You've got more information than most people probably ever bother with and I doubt you find out anything new by driving an hour each way.

It would be a toss up between the Elite and Kaji for me. I'm more of a practical, plane jane kind of user when it comes to stuff like this and the SG-2 is really the key. 410A is a fine sandwiching material imo.

EDIT
P.S. the Michel Bras are actually very conventional if one is to just go by the specs. They seem to be using VG10 cores and 410A or 420J sandwich bread. Well, that's not much different than the Classic series other than the titanium coating. The Shuns seem to be much more desirable unless I'm missing something.

[LuxLuthor]

If it was me I'd just order. You've got more information than most people probably ever bother with and I doubt you find out anything new by driving an hour each way.

It would be a toss up between the Elite and Kaji for me. I'm more of a practical, plane jane kind of user when it comes to stuff like this and the SG-2 is really the key. 410A is a fine sandwiching material imo.

EDIT
P.S. the Michel Bras are actually very conventional if one is to just go by the specs. They seem to be using VG10 cores and 410A or 420J sandwich bread. Well, that's not much different than the Classic series other than the titanium coating. The Shuns seem to be much more desirable unless I'm missing something.

Yeah, the driving thing is because people say you need to hold it in your hand, yada yada yada.

Technically, the Michel Bras is also a Shun knife, or at least a co-partnered Shun knife....but the SG-2 is "the money shot play," which ruled out the Michel Bras (well also because I don't want to be handling a sharp knife with a name that makes me think about things like this)

Speaking of the sandwiching


Oh yeah, we were talking about knives....the appeal and effect of the Damascus layers is noteworthy.