The current DIY McLux heads and current DIY 1x123 powertails are both out of tolerance to the extent that they have an interference fit with each other. The tapped hole in the DIY heads is undersized and the threaded male section of the 1x123 powertail is oversized. These two parts can concievably fit with enough lubrication and cycling on and off to wear away the interfering metal but this solution sucks and it is possible to have the parts gall.
The only conflict I am just now aware of is with the two mentioned parts and the McLux head will fit the SF bodies as well the other sized and older power tails. The new 1x123 power tail will also fit the old McLux heads as well as SF heads.
I just discovered this incompatibility last night while doing a build for a CPFer of parts he bought from Wayne's store.
I could go into the background of how this incompatibility issue got past us due to different parts arriving at different times and some parts being rejected in lot and then replacements showing up even later on down the road. Suffice it to say, we didn't catch this one combination that just doesn't cut it! Understand that in a real professional and commercial environment, Go-NoGo gauges are made for QC of issues such as these. Our go-nogo gauges are other similar parts with out knowing where in the tolerance range they might be.
The solution we have determined is to take these latest DIY heads and re tap them, each and every one. The inventory that Wayne still has will be re tapped by yours truly. I got off the phone with Wayne and we think the best solution is to send new heads out to all of you who have already bought heads and want an exchange made. If you can e-mail or contact Wayne about this, he can send you a new replacement along with postage and a box for returning your existing head. We will in turn take your existing head and re tap it and put it back in inventory for re sale.
Understand that it may be that not all heads need this and if you are using the head for a 5W mod where it will never be put on a McLux 1x123 power tail then it is a mute issue. Wayne is going to put some type of alert or notice up on his web site as well to alert folks to this issue. Since having his own PC crash along with his web sight wasn't enough for fun, we figured Wayne would welcome an additional McLux challenge. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Wayne will come along here and flesh out the exchange program better in terms of the mechanics and of course you guys will likely have some input in how to proceed as well.
I think I'll let this post go as is for starters and then we can come up with viable solutions to specific requirements as they arise. Needless to say my apologies for myself along with the other stinkers and this was certainly not planned for. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
No, yours is good to go. We are talking about I guess maybe 30 or 40 heads that Wayne has just recently sold. Any of these that will be mated to also just purchased 1x123 power tails may not screw together well. This is of course a simple thing to test but I caution that if interference is met; DON"T continue to tighten.
Just a quick follow up note I recently received two of the newer 123 packs that I mated up to two earlier ( I assume) McLux Black HA heads that I got from Leo and I had NO problems so it strictly the new stuff.
Don I assume that when you state the 1x123s are oversize that this dimension is minimally oversized.
I bought two of the new DIY McLux heads from Wayne, and I just checked them. They are not compatible with the 1X123 powertails that I also purchased...as you predicted.
Thanks for catching this. I`ll email Wayne, per your suggestion.
(Hey Don! This is certainly a rocky beginning for my new career as a modder.) [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Yes it is minimally oversized and I have quite a few SF, Arc and McLux parts that all interchange fine. The only compatibility problem I have seen is with the latest EN 123 powerpaks and the new EN heads. Both of these parts work fine with any other part or combination. Typically I would think one would attempt for slightly undersized parts on the male component and slightly oversized parts on the female component. Unfortunately the combination mentioned above is a case where the combination hasn't enough slack between the two.
We received heads the same time we received the 123 power paks and those heads mated up fine with these 123 poser paks. The heads did have some other unacceptable shortcomings and the entire lot was rejected. We received the replacement heads at the same time we received new 2x123 and 3x123 power paks. these were all interchangeable with no issues but we failed to pull out the 1x123's and test them as well. All parts had fit to this point and assumptions as well as plainly an oversight occurred.
Is the problem with the head or the tail? If the head will fit the 2x123 and 3x123 tails, it seems the 1x123 tail must be different than the others. Why are you then recalling the head? Will the retapped head fit all three?
I have a head and a tail from the first DIY raffle (overrun of TK parts, IIRC). Will the new "bad" heads fit that tail? I have a 2x123 tail and new head I just got about a week ago, how can I tell if the head is in the suspect range (I don't have a recent 1x123 head). It's probably not an issue as the new head will be used for a 5w; I'm just curious.
I belive the problem is with BOTH parts and the contribution means that they won't work with eachother but will work with all of the other parts. McLux TK as well as earlier DIY parts are not effected. The only interference I am aware of is with the the latest EN McLux Heads and the latest EN 1x123 power tails. I have found that running a 13/16 x20 tap through the heads removes enough AL for the suspect power tails to fit. Without being re tapped this head fits all other power paks. The 1x123 power tail is oversized but will fit all of the other heads that I have tried it on. The new head is undersized and yet it fits all of the other tails I have tried it on with this one exception.
I attribute this problem to a contribution from both parts. The new "bad" heads as you have called them will fit the earlier tail no problem. If you have already bought a head, you can confirm this on your own. If you plan to buy a new head, no mor heads will be shipped until after they have been tapped so it is really a mute point.
This recall if that's what it is, pertains to only the new EN heads and no other part.
Glad you caught this and thanks. Oh yeah, I think you can handle a few curve balls! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
The tolerance build up is with both the new heads and the new power packs. Both of the tolerances cause an issue. Either one with other products should be OK.
The 1X123 is on the larger diameter tolerance, while the head inside is on the smaller tolerance. The two combined tolerances is not good news.
I'm in the last stages of restoring my PC. Guess I need the challenge like I just fell of the horse again....
My schedule for the next two days is booked. I won't be able to start this wholeheartely till Wed at the earliest.
My current plan is to take all the heads and drive them up to Dons. Perform a tapping operation to open the threads up. Go over the customer database and hopefully come up with the complete list of who bought heads.
From there I'm thinking of emailing all those in the list and determine who will be using this particular combination. Some may have heads but plan on using the 2X123 or 3X123 etc etc...
I will look into whether I can do a reverse postage label that would be prepaid. If I can print this I think I can then send out the new tapped heads and include in the box a return postage paid label. You get the box, take the tapped heads out, put the old heads in, re-tape and re-label.
There are logisitics to be worked out here. And, I gotta get the web shoppe up and running.
We will figure out something. Stay tuned, hold those emails and thoughts... And, for now, don't email me, my system is not up and running yet, and I'm still transitioning.
Wooohooo.... Holy smokie... What Fun?? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
Yeah, I gotta go to work tomorrow too. Wouldn't ya know.
As a fellow modder [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], I feel confident that you would want me to share this with you....
I just bought from Wayne: Two(2)EACH of the DIY heads, the 1X123 powertail, the 2X123 powertail and the 3X123 powertail. When testing (just now) the compatibility of these heads and powertails, I found that:
1) The two DIY heads fit one 2X123 and one 3X123, but did not fit the two 1X123`s or the other 2X123 and 3X123.
2) I next tried to put the two DIY heads on an existing 1X123 and an 2X123 that I had received from you several months ago, and they all fit.
3) I next took an existing 1W EN head that I received from you earlier, and tried it on all of the new DIY powertails. It fit them all. BUT...when I did the same thing with the 5W HA head you previously sent to me, it fit on all of the new powertails EXCEPT on the two new DIY 1X123`s.
Don...I don`t know what all of this means, but I`m sure you`ll be able to figure it out.
You have confirmed that both the new heads and the 1x123 power tails are close or out of tolerance and both culpable. (can I use that word?)
Tapping the heads will take care of all issues you have mentioned with the exception of the 5W head not fitting the new 1x123 power paks. I am aware taht some of the black HA parts are closeer to being out of tolerance due to the addition of the HA. Fortunately, I don't think that too many will be putting a black head on the new EN 1x123's.
And Carpe, thanks for sharing. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] If you end up with any components that won't go together the way you would like, between the two of us, I know we will find a solution; modder to modder. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]
There are a few DIY heads and 1x123 bodies that I and my friends haven't opened yet (still wrapped and all). Should we go ahead and open/test them all? Is there any way to figure out if the parts I ordered are affected or not without opening the wrappings on it?...
And when you mentioned that only the more recent ones are affected, did that mean that some orders of the DIYs that were early weren't affected (or there were 2 batches and only 1 was affected?)...?
OK, let me exercise my brain here and see if I can work some grey matter.
Todays the 22nd... The system crashed around the 12th.... Orders for the new DIY opened around the 3rd.
So, if you ordered before the 3rd and the parts were from the old site, they are not affected (you should check and confirm anyway...). Orders taken on osCommerce commencing around June 3rd, were from the new run and are the new heads and new 1X123. There are no micro serial numbers, special identification marking on these, so, we can only go by date ordered.
If at all in doubt wait till Wed, when hopefully I'll have a list of everyone that has the new stuff.
I have 4 heads and 1 3x123, 1 2X123 and 2 1X123 both of the 1X123 tails were an issue and the 2X123 tail was an issue the 3X123 tail was not. I resolved the problem on my end using a tap as you have sugested but I guess my point is you may want to spot check the 2X123 tails it was no doubt the worst of all.
You can check your parts if you want and if you know which is going to be mated with what and they work, cool. If you have any doubts or want to make sure the heads are more likely fit for mingling with the larger population, we should probably tap them anyway. It's your call.
No, what you did isn't bad and you have solved your problem. What you have done is either removed or formed the interfering portions of Al so that they don't interfere any more. The result is more thread engagement than is typical. If anything, having more thread engagement increases the surface area joining the head to tail so you have a better thermal path between these two parts. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] As it turns out I understand that others have resolved the issue the same way. Although you may still have some compatibility issues with these components fitting on other parts, you have a custom and ideal fit between the two. It's kind of like breaking in new piston rings in a cylinder. These two parts are now uniquely fitted to each other.
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Jeeze guys - You are such a gang - CPF can really be proud !
While not being affected I still think this clearly shows that you are not only going the extra mile for your customers but at least the extra mile and back too.
What can I say - speechless [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif[/img] and impressed
One of my personnel guidelines in business always was that you most of the time are allowed to screw up once - and having the chance to show your customers that you DO CARE after a screw-up will if you do it right possibly make him a life-time customer - while when you don´t care he´s gone.
So for me this episode isn´t one of "Dude - this is bad" - but in opposite "These guys are great" - if we would be on the USN forum I think you would see lots of comments to the tone of:
"THIS SUCKS" or in translation "This skunks do stink" which would be just another attempt of speachless fans trying to express their excitement about your business style.
Lacking the right graemlins
BTW - I think the planned solution is way overboard and much less drastic and costly measures might suffice if the exposure is carefully considered - but these are just my 2 unaffected €cents.
Thanks for the assurances Don. I'm going to take a close look at the condition of the threads tonight to make sure they are OK, but the fit seemed good. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Now I just have to get up the nerve to glue and solder... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif[/img]
Glad to report, that even though I found that if you screw the bare metal parts together, you would have a little trouble with the threads gliding smoothly through, it wasn't something that a little Nye damping grease couldn't fix or smooth out.
So my order's good to go without any more retooling; just FYI...
I may also correspond to this recall.
It became the same condition as ExMB.
I deleted the portion of the beginning of a screw thread with the file, and adjusted each other and did the screw thread by polishing powder.
Now, any problem cannot be found and a screw turns.[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleepy.gif[/img]
Well dang if this isn't good and positive feed back here guys! Frankly, I prefer the idea of breaking in the parts together as you all have done but since Wayne isn't necessarily sending out complete kits, we can't approach this as a custom fit and initiate the break in for you.
What do you think, should we continue on without retapping the heads and just instruct on a lubricated break in? Retapping the remaining heads is a solution but it will result in removal of EN plating in the threads where it is unnecessary to do so.
How about this, just in from our marketing department:
"The latest McLux components have been machined in such a manner that the final fit has been left up to the customer and will result in a close tight tolerance fit specific and unique to each coupling of parts. Such a tight fit us not available with off the shelf production components..."
(PeeWee Herman voice in the background: "We meant to do that!")
How's that for a "spin"? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Should Wayne and I get together for a happy tapping party or should we let it go as is?
PS. We don't have a marketing department and we aren't even a company; just play one on TV.
Welcome to CPF! And thanks for posting your comments!
You guys are all great! The McLux program ended up taking an incredible amount of time in communications as well as unexpected costs to the tune that we may or may not break even on total expenses. Would we do it again? Highly unlikely. However, with the favorable response we have seen here on CPF as well as the fun and interactions, there have been some priceless rewards!
Certainly for myself and I believe I can speak for the other Skunks; THANK YOU!
We will need to make a decision as to go or not go with the remaining heads that Wayne has and then deal with those who want to have their already purchased heads swapped out. The best of both worlds really isn't that if somebody gets a DIY set that they can't or don't want to final fit. sending parts back to be re tapped on a on going and onsie twosie basis will bog everybody down unfortunately.
until this is resolved, I don't believe Wayne or Cindy will be sending out McLux DIY heads.
Don - I received my order from the Samich shop a short time before the bomb went off and I ended up with one of the suspect units. After reading the instructions, I worked in the threads by several on off cycles with lubrication and found that it is still somewhat tight but I am not to worked up over it. I am currently running an ARC LS head on a 1 X 123 McLux using the spacer I recieved from you from another project. This combo fit is great until I get the other parts put together.