Screened porch build, LED waterproofing and advice?

Illum

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I'm thinking of installing a couple XRE Neutral whites in a screened sunroom to accent the plants we have in there as well as faciliate lighting when we occupy it.

Our house is U shaped, this portion represents the inside of the U, flanked either side by the garage and master bedroom.

Dad and me raised the wooden structure upon the existing concrete slab poured by the former owner and screened it. Heres some of the build pictures, its now complete and filled with all sorts of plants, being under the maple tree most of the vegetation consisted of leafy greens and ferns.





the lights will be mounted behind the horizontal beams lined against the roof of the house and right below the gutter. this helps to block glare into the central compound and prevents the leds from getting wet in the event the gutter decides to overflow, and it has happened before:ohgeez:

Heres the issue, how long will LEDs [mounted on stars, don't know if that matters] last if left in the elements? Rain, fog, high humidity, etc?

the LEDs will be mounted in Copper end caps with the cap end facing down and the outer end epoxied to a L bracket and secured in a removeable way by short galvanzed screws. This leaves the LEDs completely exposed from the bottom but provides ample splash protection from the sides.

I don't want to fill the copper end cap with epoxy because it may distort the output of the lambertian dome, but driven at 350ma any method of containment [with the exception of glass] filters out quite a percentage of light. Without potting also allows the LED to be swapped out in the event that they decide to quit or through observation realized some reases can use WW or CW instead of NW.

I plan to have 8 CREE XREs NWs in operation by christmas [or as proposed], three outside the master bed room and four outside the garage. [second pic the garage is to the right] the additional LED is for the wash basin. One LED will be mounted on top of the large window in pic 2. I've estimated sufficient heatsinking to ensure safe 24 hour operation.

Its not shown but behind the central post on pic 2 theres a existing 60W light fixture that we converted to a fixture that runs on 2x "35W" CFL lamps that lights up the central area nicely.:twothumbs

All this will be driven by a xitanium 350ma off line driver housed in a water proof enclosure and will use a weather cap equipped AC switch and powered through a GFCI equipped AC pigtail salvaged from a broken hair dryer, but since its rated for indoor use only I wonder if it might trip sitting outside. Would building an enclosure over the receptacles help?:thinking:

I'm currently considering the use of 24 gauge consolidated hookup wire but since the LEDs are in a series run the returning wire will cover at least 100 feet if not more from side to side, up and down walls, etc. and the wires between LEDs being at very minimum 5 feet. I was wondering whether I need to add a capacitor somewhere or use a bigger gauge wire, like 20 gauge to prevent interference or resistance issues?
 
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Linger

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Re: CREE XR-E water resistance?

read the fish-tank torture test of cree xr-e.
Eprom put emitter just above waterline in a fish-tank, 2 years later and covered in mineral build-up it was still working. Thread in 'LED's'
**edit - Found it: Torture test of Cree XR-E at Fish Tank for 2 Years
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/245907
pics included.
futher in thread Saabluster suggest a clear-coat sealant (even nailpolish) around the metal ring but otherwise the package seems fairly resistant to moisture.

Under the gutter I've actually noticed a lot of houses get a drip coming around the bottoms, and usually is a drip off the bottom of gutters at work here. But, you're going to mount them inside copper end-caps so that's taken care of.
--The interior base of the copper end-caps is not flat, it is not a drop-in fit for a 20mm star - Use a smaller base OR a dremel round sanding attachment. There is a slight lip that starts ~1mm inside the walls and comes up. I've tested 3 brands (all I could find) and while one was the clear winner, none of them were drop-in flush fittings for a 20mm star. I totally approve of your method, but you'll need 30 seconds with a dremel sanding down the inside of each cap.

I do recommend polishing the inside of the copper for a very nice hue to the light.
350ma isn't much of a drive current in this form. 2 mode may be more your speed, 700 is very pleasant and usable, 350 or 200 for 'environmental' lighting when company is gone. 350ma you might be fine w/o any additional cooling. For 700ma best to provide a thermal path from teh copper, such as to the gutter itself?

Sorry for running off you your thread, my first lighting projects were hours spent working with stars in copper end-caps.
 
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Linger

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Re: CREE XR-E water resistance?

I don't recall where, but I've read that capacitator is recommended for longer distance runs with those drivers. (I don't have a functional knowledge of these things, I am re-inforcing your concern and encouraging you to pursue this line of inquiry)
 

H20doctor

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Re: CREE XR-E water resistance?

I build dive light with XRE and they work completly flooded in water... Salt water with No Issues ...
 

Illum

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Re: CREE XR-E water resistance?

I checked with the thread Torture test of Cree XR-E at Fish Tank for 2 Years

my goodness that CREEs been through alot:sick2:

I don't recall where, but I've read that capacitator is recommended for longer distance runs with those drivers. (I don't have a functional knowledge of these things, I am re-inforcing your concern and encouraging you to pursue this line of inquiry)

well no, capacitors are never mentioned in any driver literature I am aware of, I kinda slip that in there to hint a component that I'm not aware of that might be needed. For one thing the DC cables carrying current from the xitanium to LEDs transmit a very annoying hum through a speaker amplifier I have on my work bench where I listen to music from while testing. I was wondering if adding in caps might take the distortion out by filtering some of the "noise" in the line.

I'm well aware of the non-drop-in capability of the copper ends, either are they completely fat on the outside to snug up on the L brackets...so that'll be something in the works.

After seeing that thread my questions have dissolved themselves, if the fixture hanging 6' high was submerged I'd have other things to worry about.

my god, that's just inhumane, 17500 hours in a fish tank:candle:
 
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J_C

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Re: CREE XR-E water resistance?

2 years isn't very long for permanent LED based lighting, I would just construct a plexiglass enclosure or front panel over them, the light output loss isn't going to be enough to matter in the grand scheme of things, remembering that most of us have had panels over one source of light or another and did so for the protection and/or appearance regardless of losing a little in total output.
 

Illum

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Re: CREE XR-E water resistance?

2 years isn't very long for permanent LED based lighting, I would just construct a plexiglass enclosure or front panel over them, the light output loss isn't going to be enough to matter in the grand scheme of things, remembering that most of us have had panels over one source of light or another and did so for the protection and/or appearance regardless of losing a little in total output.

that might work actually...
I think I may be able to salvage some scrap Plexiglas to cut windows out of them:D
 

LEDninja

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Re: CREE XR-E water resistance?

According to
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
24 Ga can handle 3.5A for short runs (chassis) and .577A for long runs (transmission). No problem there.

It is a good idea to use a heavier gauge wire. If any of the strands break during installation there will still be enough left over to carry the load. It is more of a mechanical protection thing than an electrical requirement.
 

J_C

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Re: CREE XR-E water resistance?

One thing I don't recall anyone mentioning yet is bugs, how flying things gravitate towards light, how spiders like to build webs where bugs gravitate, how webs collect all sorts of dust and debris in addition to bugs. Something designed to be easily cleaned - by anyone including those not familiar with the tech of LED lighting, could be a bonus.
 

Illum

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One thing I don't recall anyone mentioning yet is bugs, how flying things gravitate towards light, how spiders like to build webs where bugs gravitate, how webs collect all sorts of dust and debris in addition to bugs. Something designed to be easily cleaned - by anyone including those not familiar with the tech of LED lighting, could be a bonus.

not much flyers, but there are spiders. this is good info :thanks:

According to
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
24 Ga can handle 3.5A for short runs (chassis) and .577A for long runs (transmission). No problem there.

It is a good idea to use a heavier gauge wire. If any of the strands break during installation there will still be enough left over to carry the load. It is more of a mechanical protection thing than an electrical requirement.

hmm, sounds good:candle:
its interesting to note the connectors on xitaniums are finer gauge than 24, I'm pretty sure its in 26-28 range...so my assumption was that xitaniums are typically not used for longrun applications. I do have magtech drivers that have 18 guage input and output lines, but since the ones I have are 12VDC max I'll have to use 3 to run 8 LEDs and I would hate to have to build an AC bus line to go along with a DC bus line. The circuit conduits and junction boxes will kill me

the current standing in terms of intrastructure

From 6 feet up looking out from the door on the house


Planned positions outside the mstr bed




Distance is yet to be determined as I need to check with dad for the planned areas of plant occupancy, no point sticking a LED on top of a place without plants under it.

Looking to my right from the door, notice the existing lamp fixture I was talking about in post 1


The wall on the garage side, the distances will vary +/- 5" and I may leave some slack between runs to facilitate future adjustments.
JPeg sucks, rough measurements are 14" between thermostat and 1st LED, ~30" runs between second, third and the next post. with the last LED on that side running four feet from the post, its off the picture in real-life but O tossed it in for reference.
 
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J_C

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Not sure exactly what effect you're looking for, but placing the LEDs where there aren't plants would provide more uniform lighting by avoiding large shadows under each, but lit plants would themselves look nice so...
 

Illum

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your right, maybe leaving them off plants might look more uniform.

I went out tonight and staged a sample estimate, from the looks of it I might have to consider going to 700ma. Finding good heat-sinking materials might be an issue :thinking:
 

J_C

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^ How pretty do the heatsinks need to be?

One thought is to take continuous or coupled lengths of copper pipe from a typical hardware store, and where each LED is to be mounted, take a pipe end cap and grind+file a half-circular groove in it so it the pipe lays into the groove and the end of the cap is the LED mounting point, then solder them on. Pipe can be ground conductor, positive conductor runs inside pipe. Not sure how effective it would be with totally enclosed cabinet around it but probably sufficient.

... not sure what pipe costs these days with the price of copper rising recently.
 
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Illum

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^ How pretty do the heatsinks need to be?

One thought is to take continuous or coupled lengths of copper pipe from a typical hardware store, and where each LED is to be mounted, take a pipe end cap and grind+file a half-circular groove in it so it the pipe lays into the groove and the end of the cap is the LED mounting point, then solder them on. Pipe can be ground conductor, positive conductor runs inside pipe. Not sure how effective it would be with totally enclosed cabinet around it but probably sufficient.

... not sure what pipe costs these days with the price of copper rising recently.

Since the heatsink is behind a two 2x6 stacked beam no ones going to ever intentionally try to look at the heatsink...:D

I'm also looking into something similar. I don't know if I can find flush ended caps, but if there are I can stack one cap on another and connect the second to a T joint using a copper segment as a nipple, then expand the copper conduit from the sides through the T joint as necessary until I can keep the assembly warm to the touch and not hot.

For now I'm using what I have: 1-1/2" x 1/16" L brackets, which a 8" segment can keep 2 CREE XREs driven at 350ma each around 85F in 80F ambient.

While coppers not cheap, it can be very effective. I'll have to check the local hardware store for prices...but from a standpoint of speculation, I think coppers more expensive than alumimum
 

jeffosborne

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Nice place, illum! And a wonderful spot for LED lights.I have used Rebel LEDs outdoors for 3 years now, and they do hold up well in the weather. On the matter of wire gauge - the Xitanium driver may have some small gauge wire in use, but the length is short, yes? So not much resistance. Your original post says you will consolidate the 24 gauge wire - this is good. Using both conductors of a 24-gauge wire for one contact will be plenty for your application. So if you are using CAT-5 (cheap and plenty) your four pairs can drive two separate LED circuits. Cheers, Jeff
 

Illum

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jeffosborne, I know of your cat5 build, but I don't have any to spare :)

To date this "porch" is the most extreme approach we have been able to successfully implement in "rescuing" a portion of our property back from angry swarms of wasps, yellowjackets, deer flys, and mosquitos.

There is about 150+ sq feet of usable ground in there, enough for cookouts and other leisure activities. At night though, its pitch black.

Dad liked the brick colors [he bought this house partially for this reason] and I thought a little bit of Neutral white crees driven at 700ma might be able to accentuate that a little, along with the plants near it.

I ran into a little problem with the xitanium-700ma today, involving a exciting, ozone producing fire, a blown fuse, and a tripped breaker. I'll need to use proper input wire gauges before I can determine the ideal heatsink size:whistle:
 
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Illum

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waiting for the LEDs to arrive....

one of my xitaniums in the workshop shed shorted:shakehead, it burned through a 20A slow burning fuse made before I was born housed in a knife switch that was made and bought in Taiwan and brought over to the US...I first need to ascertain a replacement or jerryrig a linear fuse holder in place and use a 20A spade from the car's spare box. Until then I can't cut, drill, or otherwise modify the materials I have on hand. I'm going to head out sometime today to find copper end caps as well.

Only thing I can do at this point is sand, file, measure, and stamp under the lighting provided by overhead LuxVs hooked up to a jumpstarter/inverter via another xitanium driver. :)
 
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Illum

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an 18AH SLA + 400W inverter = very good combination for an hour of work.

With the fuse block in pieces as I'm transitioning it from a regular knife switch to a breaker I worked out in the shed off this little inverter powering:

  • over head lighting
  • ventilation fan
  • soldering blower fan
  • solder iron
  • dremel
  • drill press
  • radio
One of these days I'm going to shell out some money and buy a true sine inverter...the humming nearly drove me insane:ohgeez:

I've planned out the areas to place them but I'm not sure even at 700ma it will be sufficient enough to make much of a dent in the porch. I decided to build a trial 700ma outdoor module and try it out tonight. Worse case scenario is I'll have to mount 7 LEDs on one side then 7 on the other:thinking:

started off with a 6" piece of 1-1/2" x 1/16" L bracket fabricated for some discontinued project and a 3/4" copper pipe cap


bottom of the cap is smooth, it'll need to be added with some texture so the epoxy can grip it easier.




Mark the holes on the side where the contacts are located and drilled


the drill holes are 3/32" and will accommodate up to 22" wiring, I'm using 24" for trial here. It took awhile to drill through and slipped around, as shown.:ohgeez: the end ones will be like this, ones in series will simply have a hole drilled on each side rather than both at the same side.



Test fit, 3/4" pipe caps are the smallest you can go to house a star, and yields a ~60 degree output pattern. 1" caps will give 80+ degree output.


Mark and epoxy the cap, taking note which side the holes are pointing


By the time all this is done, iron should be hot enough, lets get to work.


Solder the wires facing the opposite direction of the hole and leave some slack for proper strain relief.


Clean and prep the inside of the cap with alcohol, then put a small drop of epoxy under the star before lowering it in




Test the assembly


There you have it... a weather resistant "spotlight" LED module that is only a tad longer than its driver



I plan to expand the string up to 6 LEDs [expandable up to 7] and build them with enough metal to dissipate heat from 700ma driver for 24/7 operation in 80F ambient, Why 7? because while the 350ma xitaniums have a max Vout of ~32V, the 700ma ones only go up to ~24V and can only accommodate up to 7 at a Vf of 3.5V each. If the resultant output is too bright for my needs at best I have the option of swapping in a 350ma module.

Planned trial for tonight using this module is in the "4" region


the perimeter of the deck is the area expanded out from the house, so with no overhang support the outer wall is completely exposed to the elements. but depending on future development I might add an additional LED after 3 as dad seems inclined to install a closed loop water fountain in that corner

the resulting performance is incredible...to me anyway
Neutral White's color rendition is absolutely amazing, with a copper cap the resulting glow around the module is a pretty golden color
Control, module is mounted 3 ft up


Trial, running for 15 minutes and its only lukewarm


It is powered up at 5:18, I plan to leave it on until sometime after 9 and see if temperature will stabilize or will it overheat
EDIT: its now 8:27PM here, still lukewarm....I'm going to leave it over night to ensure the epoxy junction is solid and that the led won't cook itself
 
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J_C

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I'm curious why you epoxied the end cap to the bracket and the LED to the end cap instead of tapping screw holes in the bracket and using a pair of screws to hold the whole assembly together.

Granted, epoxy is a little more weatherproof than heatsink grease but I suspect it would be preferred if the ambient temps drop very low in winter, a large rapid thermal expansion of the end cap might be hard on the epoxy unless you use a type that remains flexible.

You mentioned having a drill press... you might get the holes started easier without skipping if the cap were put in a vise.

It's hard to tell but it looks like the edges of the star are resting upon the corner of the end cap where it starts to curve upwards, I wonder if the LED would sit lower, more flush with the cap if the edge all the way around the back of the star was ground or filed down a little bit. Then again, the picture might just be an optical illusion.

The orange glow is a nice effect, but outdoors I doubt it will be long till the copper oxidizes and that glow is gone.
 
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