Ft. Hood Shootings - Take 2

[StarHalo]

...it puts this whole conversation and documentation one step above trashy National Enquirer fiction. People can find supposed sources on this topic all over the map, and present them in patterns of heresay to put forth whatever theory you want.

...all of which are totally useless and can be collected and made to say whatever the radio presenter (or StarHalo) has on their agenda

according to MoveForwardAmerica.org, the FBI went so far as to film the recent tea party protests of loyal Americans because of warnings that conservatives could become terrorist threats.

According to Wikipedia, in an undisputed entry:

Move America Forward is a conservative political action group based in California that grew out of the campaign to recall California Governor Gray Davis. Move America Forward seeks to advance many conservative causes by lobbying of politicians at the local, state, and federal levels, through media campaigns and with grass-roots activism. Their tactics have often been confrontational and have sparked controversy.

Move America Forward has referred to those politicians who wish to pull all troops out of Iraq as "cheese-eating surrender monkey". The organization later stated that the term was also intended as an insult to France.

Move America Forward's leader Melanie Morgan and her supporters regularly characterize those who challenge them or oppose the war as "communists" or "far-left". She also regularly invokes free speech and free press — despite Move America Forward's stated aim of "restrict[ing] liberal and activist media". After having appeared once, Producers for PBS's The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer claimed she would never be on the program again.

You hassle me endlessly in your own thread that you're willing to have closed to just restrict sources, and then you post an article from a We-Support-The-Teabaggers/Liberals-Are-Commies "news source"?

Are you serious?!

[jtr1962]

And a new question: Hasan made roughly $90,000 a year, was not paying/repaying for schooling, was not married or involved, and lived in a $300-a-month apartment -- where did the money go?

Well, I've known people (mostly neighbor's kids) who have made six figures, lived with their parents not paying rent, and who not only had zero savings, but also five or six figures of credit card debt. Spending the money on cars, gadgets, clothes, gifts, eating all three meals out, etc., it's not at all hard to go through a good salary with little to show for it. Maybe he had some out of control buying obsession? That's actually more common than people like to admit. You buy a lot of junk you don't need, your house gets crowded, you give most of it away or sell it for a fraction of what you paid, and then repeat ad nauseum.

Sadly, we may never know the true motives here for this horrible event. IMO he just snapped under pressure, probably chose the wrong career to begin with. In the final analysis that's usually the real reason mass killings like this occur. And unfortunately, it's also really hard to spot someone who is at the breaking point to prevent things like this from occurring again.

[LuxLuthor]

Blah Blah Blah....Are you serious?!

Got stung there a bit did you, and biting back? Of course I'm serious. I quoted www.examiner.com and the essence of those details, no matter who they quoted within the article are well substantiated. I made no endorsement or link to "moveamericaforward.com" which I have never heard of before. This was simply one of the first links that came up on a google search of Napolitano's buffoonery, and I recognized the accuracy of the facts presented. I did not link a call in radio file which you seem to consider a valuable & accurate source and contribution to the facts at Ft. Hood....what did you say....the confirmations will be forthcoming in 24-48 hours? That window had passed. Where's the beef?

Not that your sidebar conversation has anything to do with your Ft. Hood Shooting "Inside the mind of Hassan" and call in radio show unfounded speculatations, but if you question the details referenced about Napolitano's earlier actions, at least take the time to find out that they are well documented.

In case you believe Fox News is also a jaded news source, here is the Washington Post story making it clear, including her notifying law enforcement to be on alert.

In case you believe Fox News and The Washington Post are jaded news sources, here is her non-apology "apology" that got her deeper into her own incompetence on the official Department of Homeland Security's website.

Perhaps you specifically doubt the veracity of the FBI filming ordinary Tea Party Americans who are peacefully exercising their First Ammendment rights, that you also feel the need to insult them with your vulgur sexual innuendo of "Tea Baggers"? Although it may be challenging, do some research first. Where do you find statements at the www.examiner.com source I linked that says liberals are commies?

I could do the same thing regarding her outrageous statements that inflamed Canadian officials, but I have already made it clear the difference between factual events with evidence, and "inside the mind" speculations and hearsay self-agrandisements which gives no benefit to finding out what actually happened at Ft. Hood.

[HELL LIGHT]

Let's put this way, this guys knew exactly what he was doing and basically manipulated the system to work for him since he worked for the U.S military. Trust me. this is just a test run of their future guerrilla warfare here in the U.S and they are checking on how the current administration will react to crisis like this so they will be better prepared next time. Also as part of the PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS IN GUERRILLA WARFARE that strikes FEAR among the mass population in the same time.

[SFG2Lman]

Let's put this way, this guys knew exactly what he was doing and basically manipulated the system to work for him since he worked for the U.S military. Trust me. this is just a test run of their future guerrilla warfare here in the U.S and they are checking on how the current administration will react to crisis like this so they will be better prepared next time. Also as part of the PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS IN GUERRILLA WARFARE that strikes FEAR among the mass population in the same time.

dude! i thought you were banned for being a douche on the CPFMP...i guess 2 separate fora...but now you should definitely be banned here as well

[LuxLuthor]

Hell Light, seeing more and more of Hassan's connections to known Al Qaeda and other Islamic Terrorist websites, as well as his own statements and actions, I agree they will see this Ft. Hood instance as a new way to recruit and wreak terror from within the USA. That is why it is so important to examine all the connections and facts to discern what has been unique about Hassan, and not paint innocent Islamic followers with this broad brush.

As we have learned more details, there should now be no hesitation on the part of our leaders and officials to hesitate calling an Islamic terrorist an Islamic Terrorist, or to dismiss this event as a criminal law enforcement action, or a simple case of a person with mental illness who snapped. There is already too long of a string of events and actions that take it beyond a psychiatric disease. No doubt that will be an attempted legal defense at trial, however.

[HELL LIGHT]

dude! i thought you were banned for being a douche on the CPFMP...i guess 2 separate fora...but now you should definitely be banned here as well

Is this a surprise to you???

BTW:Not in support of his terrorist act but this guy is very, very cunning and studied how the legal system works in this country before he strike. Basically he a role model of the future terrorist operation that will strike U.S in the near future.

And yes I am still on CPFMP otherwise how can I take care of business???

[Empath]

Hell Light, don't participate any further in this thread.

I consider the thread topic important. I also consider it very near to our limits. Your very presence in it risks it. It will take a special effort on everyone's part to hold the thread to the limits. Your part, is to remain out of the thread.

[Patriot]

Thank you Lux for the links. I bumped into the business cards either yesterday or late last night sometime but forgot to post the picture. That's pretty blatant though huh.

[StarHalo]

Not that your sidebar conversation has anything to do with your Ft. Hood Shooting "Inside the mind of Hassan"

The title of the thread is Ft. Hood Shootings..

I'm having a sidebar because you harangued me and the thread in general as you felt the news sources might just be about others' tangential and unrelated agendas.

Then you made a post using a source borne of your tangential and unrelated agendas which you specifically highlighted.

I pointed this out, and your response was to provide more links to the tangential and unrelated agendas.

My interest is and has been the integrity and on-topic diversity of the thread; I felt your overbearing and near-fanatical drive for only "trusted" sources, as defined by you, was generally unprofessional and put a burden on the thread. But attempting to discuss it is clearly only making it worse, so I will let it slide, in the interest of what is otherwise a very good thread.

We return you to Fort Hood..

[LuxLuthor]

Starhalo, since this is not the Underground, I will endeavor to keep this in line and respectful--as both of us know we should. As Empath said this is a serious and important discussion. My only issue has been trying to separate what we know as facts from speculation and theoretical fiction, even if plausible. I believe unsubstantiated opinions cloud "the truth," and inflame passions more than they already are.

I will also admit that having served 4 years in the US Navy, and having lost some very close friends in the 9/11 attack, that this shooting is extremely poignant in that it is looking more and more like it could have been prevented. To me it feels like an unhealed wound has been ripped open all over again. I cannot imagine what the families and servicemembers close to the tragedy are feeling as they learn more about this Doctor Terror's history.

My purpose in bringing up the "politically correct/Napolitano" issue is because the failure to take preventive actions against Hassan to some degree increasingly appears to be at the root of this horror, and we need to back off everything being "P.C." for the greater good of detecting, reporting, and stopping more of these events from happening.

In any case we should all be on the same page when terrorism happens to anyone, anywhere in the world, so I apologize if my trying to seek clarity of events resulted in being overbearing or obnoxious.

[Empath]

Lupara, your efforts to discuss the "truth" of Islam and offering links to controversial political leanings is not what this thread is about.

Such is what we urge you to take to the Underground. Your posts were removed here. Feel free to express the opinions there.

[Patriot]

News updates seems to have slowed quite a bit. I suppose it's probably only natural that things become a more secretive as the investigation progresses.




New posters to this thread, please read the entire thread before posting here.

[StarHalo]

His lawyers report that Hasan appears to be paralyzed from the waist down, with severe pain in his hands.

More of his classmates are coming forward with stories. From CNN:

His presentations for school were often laced with extremist Muslim views, one source said.
"Is your allegiance to Sharia [Islamic] law or the United States?" students once challenged Hasan, the source said.
"Sharia law," the source says Hasan responded.
The incident was corroborated by another doctor who was present.
The source also recalled an instance in which Hasan was asked if the U.S. Constitution was a brilliant document, to which Hasan replied, "No, not particularly."

Even though Hasan earned his medical degree and residency, some of his fellow students believed that he "didn't have the intellect" to be in the program and was not academically rigorous in his coursework.
Hasan "was not fit to be in the military, let alone in the mental health profession," this classmate told CNN. "No one in class would ever have referred a patient to him, or trusted him with anything."
The first classmate echoed this sentiment.
Hasan was "coddled, accommodated and pushed through that masters of public health despite substandard performance," the classmate said. He was "put in the fellowship program because they didn't know what to do with him."

[McGizmo]

Although it is just my opinion and some would disagree, Hasan failed humanity as a human being. I don't accept the teachings of the radical jihad and whether he was a true believer or just confused beyond reason is beside the point. He did what he did and is accountable for it. Some of the information being provided here in the thread is probably no better than hearsay but it seems to have enough ring of truth to be plausible at the very least. If this information provides a profile or map for warning signs, then what? Is it reasonable to hope to avoid a similar situation in the future and if yes, at what cost?

In addition to questioning responsibilities and accountabilities, this incident also provides opportunities. I can only hope for the best to come from it but I have my doubts.

I view Hasan as a cancer in humanity and I don't consider him an isolated instance, unfortunately.

[StarHalo]

If this information provides a profile or map for warning signs, then what? Is it reasonable to hope to avoid a similar situation in the future and if yes, at what cost?

Therein lies the rub - picture yourself as an NSA agent who has before you transcripts of all of Hasan's communications, his profile, surveillance data, a giant file composed of everything gathered about Hasan for many years. The profile probably goes something like this: Overweight loner, goes along to get along in career, standoffish extremist views, otherwise benign. All his communications with questionable subjects are just both parties agreeing with one another about the usual anti-Western sentiments. His coworkers dislike him but his superiors give positive reviews. In a society that measures contribution monetarily, he's done very well as a professional.

There's nothing criminal in any of it, he's just another little dog with a big bark who never bites, and it's been that way for many years. So now what?

The response that keeps coming up is "That definitely should have raised some red flags," but the fact that you have the data is the raised red flag, Hasan is a large collection of red flags that's being observed 24/7. The potential problem has been acknowledged, it's under intense non-stop scrutiny. But all this is doing is turning up more of the same data; he's still spouting extremist views, still on his career track that should be damaged by his behavior but isn't.

And this cycle drags on for years, until he finally does something that goes completely against his profile, something that's wildly unpredictable in what was an otherwise very predictable subject, a boring subject, who suddenly commits the greatest act of violence on a military base in American history.

So if you were an NSA agent on November 4th, with the entire file for Hasan's life on your desk, what would you, could you, have done?

[RAGE CAGE]

So if you were an NSA agent on November 4th, with the entire file for Hasan's life on your desk, what would you, could you, have done?

I would have documented everything in triplicate, informed my supervisor, share the information with any other intelligence agency that would be interested. I would continue to do so on a regular basis so I could have the satisfaction of the "I told you so" moment.
Read up on the Hawala System- the informal way used to move money by a vast number of Muslims to impeded tracking.
We all still remeber that the CIA provided funding, training and equipment to the Mujahadeen and OBL during the Soviet occupation of Afganistan don't we?

[Patriot]

The response that keeps coming up is "That definitely should have raised some red flags," but the fact that you have the data is the raised red flag, Hasan is a large collection of red flags that's being observed 24/7. The potential problem has been acknowledged, it's under intense non-stop scrutiny. But all this is doing is turning up more of the same data; he's still spouting extremist views, still on his career track that should be damaged by his behavior but isn't.

And this cycle drags on for years, until he finally does something that goes completely against his profile, something that's wildly unpredictable in what was an otherwise very predictable subject, a boring subject, who suddenly commits the greatest act of violence on a military base in American history.

So if you were an NSA agent on November 4th, with the entire file for Hasan's life on your desk, what would you, could you, have done?

Admittedly, probably little or nothing as an NSA guy but that's not the only authoritative party that a red flag would have come up for. It's possible that had he no longer been in the military this crime wouldn't have happened. I just don't understand the PC politics in our military or why it's exists. You're supposed to be part of a team in the armed forces. If you're not going to be part of the team or your ideology goes against what the job entails, get out! .... and push those out who aren't team players. Hasan wasn't a team player.

Regarding whether or not he hauled off and "did something against his profile" or not, I'm not so sure. I say, where there's a will, there's a way. He had obviously been harboring these feelings for a long time. What are signs of levels of progression to the next step that would be abnormal for his profile? Radical business cards, extremist contacts, hateful speech directed to troops? At some point he jumped the gap from opposing viewpoint to hateful outward verbal expressions. Then from hateful expression to an act of violence. I would maintain that he showed many of the characteristics which lead up to the first violent act. His first violent act just happened to involve murder and he may have figured, 'why just stop with one?'

As Lux stated in the other thread, those involved with him professionally bear some of the responsibility whether directly or indirectly. If it was indirectly in that superiors were constrained by a bunch of PC red tape then we ought to be looking at the way we handle business at the military admin level. If his superiors just turned a blind eye because they didn't want to deal with him, then I think they should probably be dealt with as any employee who fails to do their job.

[LUPARA]

Empath,

Will take your advice. I should have posted that "link" in the underground. Please allow me to clarify: I see it as the responsibility of all inquiring minds to inform ourselves of the truth of these matters, objectively; pleasant or unpleasant. That was my only intent; and not to push some imagined political agenda with some "controversial" link. Point taken though, and I appreciate the that moderating is hard work sometimes; didn't intend to cause you any grief there.

[StarHalo]

Possible answer to my NSA question you didn't think of: Officials above Hasan at Walter Reed were actively scheming for ways to get him kicked out of the Army; one idea was Army Regulation 600-9, a 57-page rule dictating height-to-weight and body fat guidelines - they were going to get him discharged for being fat. But a higher committee noted that you must give the subject the opportunity to lose the weight, and Hasan, with all the resources of an Army officer plus a pharmacist, undoubtedly would have. So the idea was dumped.

[LUPARA]

Reminder:
9/11 - Flight 93: Last words from cockpit; "Allahu Akbar !"

Nidal Hasan - Last words before murdering 13 and wounding twice that many; "Allahu Akbar !"

Am I missing something?

[SFG2Lman]

first a little tidbit, NSA NEVER under any circumstances spies on americans, thats FBI territory, and second, hindsight is always 20/20 we have the obvious outcome now, but the cold hard truth is that in the military people bounce around so much that building a profile with enough data to prosecute, is impossible, because its just that, hearsay, and even if we had kicked him out of the military, he would have undoubtedly committed the same act against civilians instead of us who have volunteered our lives for the country,

the sad fact is that the military has become so PC that it has hamstrung itself, we have to win wars "nicely" and win the hearts and minds while we're at it. That being said, one can't kick him out for his views, the constitution guarantees that. And violating that would be more of a tragedy than what happened at Ft. Hood because all we fight for would then be meaningless.

[LUPARA]

SFG2Lman,
Well put; it's the Constitution that is being attacked.
PC does nothing but constrain and confuse people, (they're uncertain what to do); therefore leadership is needed to spell it out and point the way.
Thanks for the clear thinking there SFG2Lman.

[McGizmo]

......and even if we had kicked him out of the military, he would have undoubtedly committed the same act against civilians instead of us who have volunteered our lives for the country,

....

Perhaps you are right in this comment. At one point as the information was coming forth I considered the possibility that Hasan, because of his religious beliefs, felt he was being forced to engage an enemy which he felt was not his enemy. His ultimate response was to escalate his involvement and respond as he did and against those he held accountable for his predicament. He had the option of taking out his jihad against civilians but chose to loose it on the base instead. Is there any significance in this? I don't know.

With giving stuff to neighbors as he did, there seemed to be some humanity left in him that went beyond recognizing only those of his ilk as having any "value". Were all non Muslims his enemy or was he more focused than that?

I am glad that some people have him figured out. I know I will never understand someone like him or fathom their crimes against humanity. If he considered the US military as his enemy, that is something I might at least understand but certainly not agree with. I will never understand how someone can embrace some higher being and then take human life, supposedly on their behalf.

[StarHalo]

first a little tidbit, NSA NEVER under any circumstances spies on americans

In San Francisco in 2002, some technicians at AT&T were notified that the NSA was coming to do interviews for a special project that would take place at the Folsom Street building location. The Folsom building is one of several "internet switching stations" in the US featuring a giant fiber-optic backbone through which nearly all international internet traffic flows. On a tour of the building in 2003, one technician pointed out a particular door on the sixth floor, noting, "That's the new secret room and only one guy is allowed in there." Though the techs knew it wasn't right, there were cutbacks going on and no one wanted to put their job in jeopardy, so nothing was said about it beyond that. Some time later, technician Mark Klein was under floor panels on the seventh floor troubleshooting the network/cables, when he noticed a splitter on the main network line - someone had deliberately installed a connection that was making a copy of every single bit of international internet data, and running it down to a room on the sixth floor - the "one guy" room. A technician Klein was taking over a job for had schematics and parts lists for what was in the room, most notably several racks of high-speed communications analysis computers that could pick out red-flagged keywords and make a note of them. All international internet communications going through AT&T's Folsom branch were under 24/7 full-spectrum surveillance in this one room.

Klein noted that one of the "employees" who worked in the room at one time showed him some keys hanging from a chain under his shirt, "And he started saying 'this one is for San Diego' and 'this one is for Seattle..'"

Because of a class-action lawsuit filed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation in 2006, this is all now a matter of public record; you can search for "AT&T spying", "611 Folsom Street", "Room 641A", etc.

[StarHalo]

He had the option of taking out his jihad against civilians but chose to loose it on the base instead. Is there any significance in this?

His religious beliefs state that you can only die a martyr if you are killed in war against the enemy - so just killing random people isn't an option if you want to be righteous, it must be against enemy soldiers in battle. This is probably why he opted for mere firearms and not something more immediately destructive, so God would consider it a "fair fight", and give Hasan a hero's welcome to heaven.

[McGizmo]

Thanks for the insight StarHalo. It seems that Hasan's motivation then was not the same as those involved in 9/11 or perhaps he limited his perception of who the enemy was compared to those terrorists involved in 9/11. This might be thin ice so please don't bother venturing out on it on my behalf.

[StarHalo]

It seems that Hasan's motivation then was not the same as those involved in 9/11 or perhaps he limited his perception of who the enemy was compared to those terrorists involved in 9/11.

You have the general gist of it; the 9/11 attackers viewed themselves as soldiers in a war with the US as a whole, so a full-scale military-type strike on locations critical to the enemy (and the enemy's morale) was ideal. Though there would be collateral damage, the importance of the attack to their side would be so great that martyrdom would be guaranteed.

[jahxman]

SFG2Lman,
Well put; it's the Constitution that is being attacked.
PC does nothing but constrain and confuse people, (they're uncertain what to do); therefore leadership is needed to spell it out and point the way.
Thanks for the clear thinking there SFG2Lman.

Just lost me there Lupara - SFG2Lman's point about the constitution was that it guarantees the right of freedom of expression, and Hasan's statements and beliefs by themselves couldn't be used to boot him because of it.

I didn't read anything in SFG2Lman's post about the constitution being attacked. This nosensical statement and your earlier post seem likely to derail this discussion and get this thread closed as well, something I'd like to avoid.

[LuxLuthor]

I know I will never understand someone like him or fathom their crimes against humanity...I will never understand how someone can embrace some higher being and then take human life, supposedly on their behalf.

This is true and seems bewildering until you look back through history and see how many millions of followers commit unspeakable atrociites in the name of religion, political regime, power, money, or inspired by a charismatic leader. Many of them are devoutly religious and able to compartmentalize their abuses.