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Thread: Cars, Man

  1. #1111
    *Flashaholic* StarHalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    but no one will remember it once Ferrari releases the F12..

  2. #1112
    *Flashaholic* StarHalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Pebble Beach: McLaren Special Operations X1, built on the MP4-12C platform. 1 of 1, was displayed for only one day and then delivered to customer:




  3. #1113
    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    ...same performance...
    CTS-V: 556hp
    S6: 420hp

    Not really comparable.

    A lot closer to "the same performance" as the CTS-V would be an AWD Charger R/T ($33k-$39k) with an Edelbrock E-Force supercharger kit (call it $9k after professional installation). Same size, more powerful, at least $23k in your pocket. But you don't get that German badge.
    A little madness never hurt anybody.

  4. #1114
    *Flashaholic* StarHalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeA View Post
    Not really comparable.
    Surprise:

    Audi S6; 0-60: 3.7 sec, 1/4 mi: 12.1 sec
    Cadillac CTS-V sedan; 0-60: 4.1 sec, 1/4 mi: 12.3 sec

    The Caddy's numbers above assume a perfect launch; if you don't feather the clutch and throttle just right, the Audi's all-wheel-drive and launch control combo will pull away that much farther from the start.

  5. #1115
    Flashaholic kwak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeA View Post
    CTS-V: 556hp
    S6: 420hp

    Not really comparable.

    A lot closer to "the same performance" as the CTS-V would be an AWD Charger R/T ($33k-$39k) with an Edelbrock E-Force supercharger kit (call it $9k after professional installation). Same size, more powerful, at least $23k in your pocket. But you don't get that German badge.
    BHP alone is a poor comparison of cars performance.
    Torque, weight, gearing, type of gearbox, grip, CoG etc etc all play a massive part in a cars performance.

    Plus certain manufacturers are known for having wildly exaggerated performance and BHP figures, other car companies really do err on the side of caution for their figures.

  6. #1116
    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    Surprise:

    Audi S6; 0-60: 3.7 sec, 1/4 mi: 12.1 sec
    Cadillac CTS-V sedan; 0-60: 4.1 sec, 1/4 mi: 12.3 sec

    The Caddy's numbers above assume a perfect launch; if you don't feather the clutch and throttle just right, the Audi's all-wheel-drive and launch control combo will pull away that much farther from the start.
    Surprise:

    CTS-V Nordschleife time: 7:59.32
    Audi S6 Nordschleife time: ???

    That 7:59 made the Cadillac the fastest production sedan around that track (faster than any other sedan, including the Audi) until it was dethroned by the Porsche Panamera Turbo S, which is still not the Audi S6.

    Barring significant mitigating factors, an AWD vehicle will have an advantage over a RWD one in a drag race. That isn't really debatable. But the dragstrip is not a perfectly accurate test of performance.
    A little madness never hurt anybody.

  7. #1117
    *Flashaholic* StarHalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeA View Post
    CTS-V Nordschleife time: 7:59.32
    Audi S6 Nordschleife time: ???
    It'll probably be close, but it's not an entirely fair comparison since the Audi is a full four years newer than the Caddy. The aforementioned M5 and new Benz E AMG will probably be able to surpass the American's track time by a sounder margin.

  8. #1118
    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by kwak View Post
    BHP alone is a poor comparison of cars performance.
    Torque, weight, gearing, type of gearbox, grip, CoG etc etc all play a massive part in a cars performance.

    Plus certain manufacturers are known for having wildly exaggerated performance and BHP figures, other car companies really do err on the side of caution for their figures.
    As I mentioned above, for a time the CTS-V was the fastest production sedan around the Nurburgring's Nordschleife. So it's got some pretty legitimate performance credibility. The Cadillac has all the factors you mentioned in spades. And I don't want it to be construed that I'm indicating that the S6 isn't a well-performing car.

    Best I could find regarding actual/claimed power outputs was this chassis dyno test for the Cadillac and this A7 3.0 chassis dyno test. The A6/A7 and S6/S7 share engines and drivetrains, and I couldn't find any dyno results for either S car. The test shows the A7 transferring 275hp against Audi's flywheel claim of 310. The Cadillac put a peak of 492hp down through the wheels. Audi claims the turbocharged 4.0L V8 in the S6 makes 420hp. Applying the ratio of whp/bhp from the 3.0 to the S6's claimed power gives 393whp for the S6. This is not an exact calculation, but it does at least put us in the ballpark.

    Chassis dyno testing has a (well-deserved) reputation for poor repeatability, but it wouldn't take a large sample size to generate a statistically significant result denying the hypothesis assumption of equality of power generated in hp between the two cars.

    Some engines and drivetrains are over- or underrated, but for these two cars the inaccuracy of rating doesn't change what are extremely likely to be the facts (that the Cadillac generates more power than the Audi).
    A little madness never hurt anybody.

  9. #1119
    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    It'll probably be close, but it's not an entirely fair comparison since the Audi is a full four years newer than the Caddy. The aforementioned M5 and new Benz E AMG will probably be able to surpass the American's track time by a sounder margin.
    Probably. Four years is a relative eternity when it comes to auto performance. But, at the risk of starting another debate, both of those cars will probably turn out to perform believably better than the CTS-V, but they each will cost twice as much as it. And neither will be available as a coupe or wagon or with a manual transmission, for the (dozen or so? Ha!) people who would want any of those options.
    A little madness never hurt anybody.

  10. #1120
    *Flashaholic* StarHalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Pony car news from Pebble Beach: Ford and Shelby built a one-off tribute to Carroll Shelby called the GT500 Cobra, built on the GT500 platform, featuring 850 hp and a widebody kit, but that's not the news:



    The news is, the 2013 Shelby Super Snake model, available to all, will now feature 850 hp. It's the same car without the widebody kit:


  11. #1121
    Flashaholic kwak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeA View Post
    As I mentioned above, for a time the CTS-V was the fastest production sedan around the Nurburgring's Nordschleife. So it's got some pretty legitimate performance credibility. The Cadillac has all the factors you mentioned in spades. And I don't want it to be construed that I'm indicating that the S6 isn't a well-performing car.
    After 25 years of being in and around the car industry i can honestly put my hand on my heart and say i have never met or even heard of anyone that has bought a car because of it's ring lap times.

    Speaking as someone that's both ridden and driven round the Nordschleife many times both recently and before it became fashionable, i would have to say a car that is fast around Nordschleife would more often than not make a terrible road car.

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeA View Post
    Best I could find regarding actual/claimed power outputs was this chassis dyno test for the Cadillac and this A7 3.0 chassis dyno test. The A6/A7 and S6/S7 share engines and drivetrains, and I couldn't find any dyno results for either S car. The test shows the A7 transferring 275hp against Audi's flywheel claim of 310. The Cadillac put a peak of 492hp down through the wheels. Audi claims the turbocharged 4.0L V8 in the S6 makes 420hp. Applying the ratio of whp/bhp from the 3.0 to the S6's claimed power gives 393whp for the S6. This is not an exact calculation, but it does at least put us in the ballpark.

    Chassis dyno testing has a (well-deserved) reputation for poor repeatability, but it wouldn't take a large sample size to generate a statistically significant result denying the hypothesis assumption of equality of power generated in hp between the two cars.

    Some engines and drivetrains are over- or underrated, but for these two cars the inaccuracy of rating doesn't change what are extremely likely to be the facts (that the Cadillac generates more power than the Audi).
    Problem i have here is, you've taken 1 single solitary example and used that to base an entire manufacturers power rating.
    To me that assumption is THAT vague it less than useless.

    I'm not really sure what your goal is, but so far in my opinion you have shown absolutely no knowledge or understanding of cars.

    1/ BHP on it's own is a very poor guide to a cars performance.
    As an example a Caterham R500 will lap and accelerate to 100mph quicker than all the cars you mentioned, yet it's dramatically lower in peak bhp

    2/ A Nordschleife lap time is pointless in a road car and although a reputable manufacturer will use the Nordschleife for certain testing, any lap times posted by a manufacturer on a car that's aimed at mid level executives is an exercise by the marketing department not the dynamics department.

    3/ Some cars read low on Dyno's others read high.
    End of the day BHP is not as useful as torque and peak torque is not as useful as the "area under torque"


    I've driven the CTS-V, the M5 and the RS6, to be honest i wouldn't buy any of them.

    Personally on public roads i am more interested in perceived performance (a car that feels fast rather than is fast) and driving pleasure rather out right performance.
    If i could drive a manual safely then i would buy another Caterham 7 as with that car i was able to safely and enjoyably explore it's traction limits compared to the cars listed.

    Absolutely no doubt the CTS-V is fast and there is no doubt it's a lot cheaper than the other cars listed.
    If you jump from each car though it certainly feels and looks a lot cheaper as well, the interior is pretty poor even by basic 3 series or Audi A1 standards, never mind a top level car.
    For me it's saving grace is the LSx engine.

    If i was American though and didn't care about a decent interior or handling subtitles i could understand why someone would buy one.

  12. #1122
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    +


    Judging a car on horsepower is like judging a stereo on how much noise it can make,,

    ,,

  13. #1123
    Flashaholic* Chauncey Gardiner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    ........Or judging a $100 bottle of scotch by its alcohol content. It's not meaningless, but it's certainly not the determining factor.

    ~ Chance
    Never point a flashlight at anything you don't intend to illuminate!

  14. #1124
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    +

    Some shots I took at Road America for last weekends' ALMS event




    Inside Dyson Racing prototype ^



    Stock ^



    Not Stock ^




    Angry sounding 8 Liter motor ^




    Cute ^^
    Last edited by orbital; 08-20-2012 at 11:49 AM.

  15. #1125
    Flashaholic* Chauncey Gardiner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    I see what you did there Orbital.

    ~ Chance
    Never point a flashlight at anything you don't intend to illuminate!

  16. #1126
    *Flashaholic* Monocrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by orbital View Post


    Cute ^^
    That's definitely a pair worth fighting for!

    The Flag, and the lovely young woman enjoying the freedoms that it represents.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  17. #1127
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Gardiner View Post
    I see what you did there Orbital.

    ~ Chance
    +

    ..ahhh, just a mellow hint of Oak

  18. #1128
    *Flashaholic* StarHalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Zoom n' room


  19. #1129
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    They brought back the station wagon version of the Mazda 6 . . . Might as well teach a son how to hunt butterflies.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  20. #1130
    Flashaholic* Chauncey Gardiner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    What's more fun to drive, a mini-van, an SUV, or that beautiful Mazda station wagon?

    ~ Chance
    Never point a flashlight at anything you don't intend to illuminate!

  21. #1131
    *Flashaholic* Monocrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Your limited standard of comparison makes that Mazda sound good.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  22. #1132
    Flashaholic* Chauncey Gardiner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Median income, family of four or five, throw in a dog for good measure, a couple of ice-chests (one for food, one for adult beverages when the days driving is done) and we're off for a three day weekend drive down the coast What do we drive?


    When it comes to style, performance, and room for the family....Oops! Don't forget the beer! The station wagon is king.

    Like the man said: Zoom n' room.

    ~ Chance
    Last edited by Chauncey Gardiner; 09-06-2012 at 12:49 PM.
    Never point a flashlight at anything you don't intend to illuminate!

  23. #1133
    Enlightened Mr.Sun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    My old 993, RS everything. Last Guards Red aircooled Porsche delivered (1997) to the United States.

    "Here comes the sun, do-'n-do-do, Here comes the sun do-'n-do-do and I say.......It's all right''

  24. #1134
    Flashaholic* KuanR's Avatar
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    Default

    Nice 993! It's my favourite generation, I'll have 993 turbo some day!
    I'm Ryan.

  25. #1135
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    +1 for the 993 series

    They hold such a classic 911 style to them

  26. #1136
    *Flashaholic* StarHalo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Wide is good..


  27. #1137
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Yes........yum,yum

    "Here comes the sun, do-'n-do-do, Here comes the sun do-'n-do-do and I say.......It's all right''

  28. #1138
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    +

    PCA Chicago region rents Road America every Labor Day weekend from Fri~Mon evening.
    It is an absolute Porsche orgy,,,no air restrictors either

    Everything from stock models to full race units, and fire breathing turbo monsters, **%%(*&* nuts!
    Just incredible how well 911s* get around R.A.

    Falken Tire 911 team just won Baltimore ALMS for the second year in a row
    & Flying Lizard 911 team scored pole position at Road America just the other weekend.

    I could talk Porsche racing till morning & not even scratch the surface........

    *yes, 924, all 944 models, 928 & 968 were there too
    Last edited by orbital; 09-06-2012 at 07:32 PM. Reason: *

  29. #1139
    *Flashaholic* Monocrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey Gardiner View Post
    Median income, family of four or five, throw in a dog for good measure, a couple of ice-chests (one for food, one for adult beverages when the days driving is done) and we're off for a three day weekend drive down the coast What do we drive?
    You drive poor dad crazy from the sound of it.

    (But I get the point you're making.)


    When it comes to style, performance, and room for the family....Oops! Don't forget the beer! The station wagon is king.
    After a few beers, I might agree with that.

    Like the man said: Zoom n' room.

    ~ Chance
    That's not right. Which man said that? The drunken one with the under appreciated wife, 3 kids, and the dog?
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  30. #1140
    *Flashaholic* Monocrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cars, Man

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    Wide is good..

    Especially for when you want to spread out on the park bench.

    BTW, that's a weird spot to put it in.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

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