Poor Man's FM1909 ($1 bulb)

[Techjunkie]

Hey all,

I just made an awesome discovery. Too cheap to pony up the big bucks for an FM1909 bulb (and other accessories required with purchase), I did some experimenting with some long life 6V bi-pin bulbs and three AW IMR 26500 in a Mag 2D with Kiu socket. I'm pleased to announce that my gut was right. The 2000hr Hikari 6V 20W G4 bulb, JC5607, like it's big brothers, can handle some serious overdriving.

On three 26500s measuring ~12.4V open pack after testing, this bulb was pulling ~5A with no and no complicated setup, just direct drive.

I don't know what kind of bulb life to expect pushing it so close to the envelope, but at just over a dollar a bulb, I don't care. At 60W of super white light, this setup is a Philips 5761 (and Mag85) killer at least for output.

(On a similar note, the 100 hour Philips 20W 6V G4, PH7388, unlike the 5761, can handle two IMR batteries at full open pack 8.4V and output appears slightly brighter then the 5761 driven at 7.9V without all the hassle of drivers or thermistors or battery conditioning.)

[bigchelis]

Where is this bulb for sale and where are the beamshots



Please



EDIT: I forgot to mention my FM1909 pulls 5.60A at the tail with 3 IMR C cells in a 2D hosts. No soft-start and just short spring mod with metal reflector and UCL lens.

[csshih]

oh huh. they're on ebay at pretty cheap prices.!!

search
Hikari Halogen 20W JC G4 6V FHE/ESB bulb

[kramer5150]

Great detective work!!

Gotta get me a bi pin adapter next!!

[Conte]

Damn. What's it like running at 6 volts? Or 2 cells ?

You are defiantly not batting 60 watts tho.
From my experience, (I've done alot of "under load" voltage testing"
cells almost always drop to their rated voltage under average load.
Heavy load, is going to drop is less then that. At least 3.6v a cell.

In your case at about 5 amps . . . I'd say abotu 45 - 50watts.

Still, that a hell of an Overclock.

It's because of this voltage sag that you can do things like this.
Sometimes by time that bulb has juiced the battery for the current it needs, the voltage sags to much it runs into normal operating perametres, lol. Where as a less bulb will .

It reminds me of an experiment I did, and also a similar discovery I made.

The experiment was; I decided to try a 2.4 volt PR bulb using a 3.2volt Lifepo4 battery. I figure, 2 alk D-cells are 3.0v, 0.2v over shouldn't blow it.
But
This is what prompted me to do the under load experiments.
Turns out a pair of weakling Alkaline cells will sag down to 2.4 - 2.8 volts with even only a pitiful PR bulb. Not even krypton.
On the other hand, when loading the "LiFE" cell with a higher output 2.4v Krypton bulb, about 0.9amps, it sagged just enough that the bulb could handle it.

The similar experience I have was; years ago I bought these Miner headlamps from a surplus store for $5 each. No battery.
They came with these oddball 4v 1.25a Halogen HPR bulbs.
Within their rated voltage they were rather dim so I never took them very seriously until just recently.

After reading about overdriving on CPF, and doing my voltage sag experiments, I decided to take a leap of faith and whak this little bulb with 6.6volts off a pair of LiFE cells. I was reluctant to do so, cause they are so oddball, I figured I'd "collect" them. But I have 2 so why not.

Sure enough, it took it like a champ, and bam. 9.6watts, with output matching a Mag Charger.
I've done various runtime tests. And been using the bulb in various flashlights almost like an EDC for the past 2 weeks. Still no

I want more of this bulb to run in my Fultons that I power with 2x 26650 LiFE cells, but the funny thing is, I can't find out what bulb it is. Nothing seems to match it. Closest I can find is the HRP44 @ 1amp.
Even the manufacture website of the headlamp specifies the HRP44.
So I ordered a couple of HPR44's to try and see if they are the same.

What you have discovered is pretty kick ass.
I did search, I can grab a 10 pack of your bulb off ebay.

Might be a good option for me in a Mag85 as the WA bulb is hard for me to get. I'm in Canada. Unless its on Ebay or I can get it from a CPF member I'm SOL unless I want to pay $20 for shipping off the supply websites you guys know and love.

Watch about a year from now people are raving about Mag mods using your bulb :P

[bigchelis]

Great detective work!!

Gotta get me a bi pin adapter next!!

Kramer5150,

I just purchased the 10 pack from Ebay and at $14 dollars they are a bargain, even if all I get is 10 hours I am not saying if it will get 10hours just pocking fun at the likely scenario


Well get that bi pin kit because I got 2 or more pro-bono comming your way.

bigC

[csshih]

I have a mag 3D bipin light I can part with cheaply if you need one kramer.. it'll even include a 10.8V (9 cell nimh) battery pack .. which you can charge with a hobby charger..
all you need to do is supply a better reflector as the one i have in there is uglyyyy.

[TheInvader]

I ordered some Hikari JC-5043 bulbs recently.
They are 12v and pull about 4 amps when pushed to 20v, outputting 4,000 lumens.
Pushed to 104w, they are pretty white, about 5000-6000k.

[kramer5150]

BI PIN adapter INCOMING!!!

I'm thinking a mag 3D host + 3x26650 cells... hopefully no
Better add some borofloat to the mix.

How close is this setup to melting the OEM mag PR tower?

thanks Craig for the offer... let me scope everything out, I am leaning towards IMR-Lithium cells right now.

[kramer5150]

(On a similar note, the 100 hour Philips 20W 6V G4, PH7388, unlike the 5761, can handle two IMR batteries at full open pack 8.4V and output appears slightly brighter then the 5761 driven at 7.9V without all the hassle of drivers or thermistors or battery conditioning.)

I think this is the same bulb used in the Ultrafire WF-500.

pill assembly:
Link1

Bulb
Link2

WF-500
Link3

IMHO paired with IMR 18650 cells, this is one of the better DX lights, incan or LED. The switch quality is questionable, although being a twisty it should be able to handle the current.

[Techjunkie]

Where is this bulb for sale and where are the beamshots

I got mine from Bulbtronics for $1.15 each.

...
You are defiantly not batting 60 watts tho.
From my experience, (I've done alot of "under load" voltage testing"
cells almost always drop to their rated voltage under average load.
Heavy load, is going to drop is less then that....

Have you ever done any load testing with AW IMR26500? I have experimented with them plenty, and I'm telling you, under ~5A load there's barely any sag at all. These things can sustain massive load unlike any other battery I've ever seen. Conservatively, I'm seeing 50+ Watts, probably more like 55+.

[Techjunkie]

...(I'm thinking a mag 3D host + 3x26650 cells... hopefully no
Better add some borofloat to the mix.

How close is this setup to melting the OEM mag PR tower?

I went with the three AW IMR cells and the 2D host for two reasons. 1: that much light from a little 2D is freaky fun. 2: I trust the AW 2300mAH 26500 cells to sag less under load than the Batteryspace 4000mAH 26650 cells.

I'd recommend going with a Kiu tower instead of the plastic mag post and bi-pin adapter. This sucker gets plenty hot. I'm using plain DX/KD glass by the way.

(Speaking of the PH7388) I think this is the same bulb used in the Ultrafire WF-500...

Actually, the PH7388 is the same bulb used in the WF-600. DX recently began selling the WF-600 lamp for use in the WF-500 assembly. (That's how I discovered it.) The original WF-500 filament is smaller and gives tighter focus, but less output.

[Kestrel]

oh huh. they're on ebay at pretty cheap prices.!!

search
Hikari Halogen 20W JC G4 6V FHE/ESB bulb

Searched ebay this morning but couldn't find anything like this at all?

Edit: OK, Google helped out - found the ebay listing which has ended. There were only 5 units. :-(

Edit #2: Per LL's post here, and the post above by Techjunkie (which I missed when I read this thread ealier ) they are available at Bulbtronics for $1.15 each.

Edit # 3: Do you think that this bulb be a near-optimal replacement (i.e using 8xAA) for the discontinued WA1166 whoops, WA1164 - albeit considerably brighter than a Mag66 whoops I meant Mag64?

[mvyrmnd]

I think this is the same bulb used in the Ultrafire WF-500.

pill assembly:
Link1

Bulb
Link2

WF-500
Link3

IMHO paired with IMR 18650 cells, this is one of the better DX lights, incan or LED. The switch quality is questionable, although being a twisty it should be able to handle the current.

Thanks for those links! I have a WF-500, and these bulbs look much better than the stock ones. Just ordered me a few!

[Techjunkie]

Edit # 3: Do you think that this bulb be a near-optimal replacement (i.e using 8xAA) for the discontinued WA1166 - albeit considerably brighter than a Mag66?

I'm not familiar with the specs of the WA1166 and I don't have access to Lux's charts right now (proxy), but I can say this, before going full blast with three IMR, I tried this bulb with only two or two plus a C sized NiMH which is comparable to running it on 8AA. It was still impressive, probably in WF-500 territory, but only half as bright if even that much as on 3 IMR cells. Basically, this bulb is completely underrated at 6V until you consider the 2000hr life estimate at that voltage.

[Kestrel]

Whoops sorry I meant the WA1164 / Mag64, not the 66.

[Conte]

Edit: OK, Google helped out - found the ebay listing which has ended. There were only 5 units. :-(

Lol, yeah, Probably sold out due to a sudden raise in demand after the release of this thread.

Have you ever done any load testing with AW IMR26500? I have experimented with them plenty, and I'm telling you, under ~5A load there's barely any sag at all. These things can sustain massive load unlike any other battery I've ever seen. Conservatively, I'm seeing 50+ Watts, probably more like 55+.

I haven't worked with IMR's yet. I have a selection of LiFe cells which are just as robust, if not more. I actually did some testing on them after this post, out of curiosity. And yeah, 50 - 55 watts sounds about right.

I've noticed that when you overdrive a bulb just right its Lumen per Watt ratio increases a bit, making it seem brighter then its power consumption.
Like referring to my experience with the HPR44 bulb running at 9.6 watts that matches an 11watt MagCharger bulb.



Have you tried running the bulb at just 6 - 6.6 volts ?

[Techjunkie]

Have you tried running the bulb at just 6 - 6.6 volts ?

I tried it at 8.4-9.6V open pack and it was still plenty bright (about half as bright) but a much warmer color. I would not recommend it for lower voltages. A 100hr bulb that can't handle this level of overdrive will certainly outperform this bulb at 6V (ex. 5761). For 8.4V, I'd recommend the PH7388.

[Conte]

Cause I run Lifepo4 cells I run alot of 6volt rigs.

I'm actually trying to find myself the poormans magcharger bulb.
I find that 11watter hits the sweet spot for my everyday use.
Good balance of output and runtime.

[Kubbie]

Hey all,

...I did some experimenting with some long life 6V bi-pin bulbs and three AW IMR 26500 in a Mag 2D with Kiu socket. [/I]

New to this, so excuse me if I'm asking something obvious. Never built, modded a light, but got an itch. I was looking into getting AW's Mag D Incan Driver, (so no need for the Kiu socket, correct?) and 3 of his IMR 26500's.

Secondly, this will fit a 2d host? Will I have to mod the spring some? Add a metal reflector and a glass lens and I'm good?

I'd like more of a thrower, but not ready for the $ on a deep heads yet...

[Techjunkie]

New to this, so excuse me if I'm asking something obvious. Never built, modded a light, but got an itch. I was looking into getting AW's Mag D Incan Driver, (so no need for the Kiu socket, correct?) and 3 of his IMR 26500's.

Secondly, this will fit a 2d host? Will I have to mod the spring some? Add a metal reflector and a glass lens and I'm good?

I'd like more of a thrower, but not ready for the $ on a deep heads yet...

Everything you said is good, although, the beauty of this $1 bulb is that it can take direct drive from 3 IMR batteries with no need for an expensive module. The bare Kiu socket is much cheaper than AW's incan driver. If you're going to use the incan driver, then you've left poor man's territory already so you might as well use a more "deluxe" bulb. Yes, three IMR26500 will fit a Mag 2D if you remove the anodizing from the inside of the tailcap with drain unclogger and make a short spring to fill the gap between the last battery and the de-ano'd tailcap bottom. I use a few coils cut from the original spring. For metal reflector and glass lens, I use parts from DX. I use the P7 MOP reflector and then file (dremel) off the threads and I use the plain 52mm glass lens. The only major expense for my torch is the $45 worth of batteries. Total cost for everything in my case is < $80.

[Conte]

AW Incan driver comes with the socket and does drop right into a 2D host.

I have one I love it, the ability to turn down the light comes in handy.
You can dim it for looking at stuff up close without blinding yourself, turn it up a bit for general use, then top it off for the long throw.

The deep reflectors Fivemega sells are only about $40-$45 tho, considering all the others are $20 I think its worth holding out till you can afford it.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the IMR 26500's fit in a stock in a 3C host ? An actual Cell is 25500, but I've squeezed 26mm cells in a Sotck C cell mag before. Its a tight fit, but it does work.

Otherwise, just as Techjunkie said, you'd have to mod the 2D host.
I just tried to drop 3C cells in my 2D and its a no go with the stock spring.

PS: An Incan driver for a C-Mag is a few bucks cheaper and the mentioned reflectors will fit in both C and D mags.

[bigchelis]

With a 2D Mag you do need to modify the spring and tailcap, but thats it. Then I used fivemegas bi-pin kit at $20ish and FM1909 bulb (now I have these $1 dollars on the way).

With a KD V3 $12.99 reflector it doesn't look soo nice due to mine being the smooth version. I should have gotten the MOP one.

UCL lens is $6 at KD too and thats it.


If you want a super thrower, yes you have to purchase a FM 2.5in Throwmaster or his 2in Deep reflector. I personally like the 2in deep better even though it throws less. It just is a ton smaller than the Throwmaster. They both make the FM1909 and ROP H bulbs look like lazer beams in the sky, but they add up in $$$ real fast.

bigC

[bouncer]

Are these the same bulbs by Higuchi ?

http://www.dallaslightbulb.com/searc...=search&page=1

they also have the G6.35 ones

http://www.dallaslightbulb.com/hig-jc5059-pr-1345.html

[Benson]

I've noticed that when you overdrive a bulb just right its Lumen per Watt ratio increases a bit, making it seem brighter then its power consumption.
Like referring to my experience with the HPR44 bulb running at 9.6 watts that matches an 11watt MagCharger bulb.

Yeah, that's a continuous effect -- the hotter it runs, the whiter the light output, and therefore the more efficient (because a greater percentage of the light is visible, vs. "useless" infrared). Just like LEDs, although for an entirely different reason, higher color temperature means more efficient.

I use the P7 MOP reflector and then file (dremel) off the threads

No need, they sell a practically identical reflector but with no threads EDIT: for a pill. See sku.12229. As you probably realize, they're not really very efficient reflectors for incan -- since they're designed for an LED that throws all its light in the forward hemisphere, it's ok to truncate the parabola practically right at the focus, and leave the base flat. For a hotwire, since a bulb throws light (almost) uniformly in all directions, you end up losing nearly 1/2 the light when focused tightly. If you're already putting together a DX order for your light, it may make sense just to throw one in, for simplicity's sake, but I'd recommend one of the incan-purpose Mag reflectors from KD if you're shopping for a cheapish reflector (yeah, 3x as much, but still free shipping = ~50% the higher-end options when bought alone), or better yet a Modamag M2 if you can get enough of an order together from The Sandwich Shoppe to justify shipping.

EDIT: Just hit me, you're probably talking about removing the ~50mm threads at the top, not the threads at the bottom for the pill (in sku.13803).

[Mjolnir]

Any updates Techjunkie? Have you blown any bulbs yet?

[Techjunkie]

Are these the same bulbs by Higuchi ?

http://www.dallaslightbulb.com/searc...=search&page=1

they also have the G6.35 ones

http://www.dallaslightbulb.com/hig-jc5059-pr-1345.html

The first link didn't work, but I searched for JC5607 and found what you were talking about at http://www.dallaslightbulb.com/hig-jc5607-pr-1285.html

If the picture is correct, then no, that's not the bulb. The Hikari bulb has a transverse filament whereas the picture on dallaslightbulb's site for the Higuchi bulb shows an axial filament. I'd call to see if the pic is correct and if it is, order a few 'cause the focus on that would make nicer hotspot. The overdrive is not a guarantee though 'cause I tried other 6V 2W 2000hr bulbs that coudn't handle the overdrive. I'd order a few for myself, but the $10 minimum order is a deal beaker for me. Maybe after someone verifies the overdrive capability, we can get a group buy together. Update: I just found that Higuchi bulb on Bulbtronics, where I got the Hikari bulbs and Bulbtronics picture shows a transverse filimant, not axial. Interestingly, it's the same price and spec, so who knows, maybe it's exactly the same.

...No need, they sell a practically identical reflector but with no threads EDIT: for a pill. See sku.12229. As you probably realize, they're not really very efficient reflectors for incan -- since they're designed for an LED that throws all its light in the forward hemisphere, it's ok to truncate the parabola practically right at the focus, and leave the base flat. For a hotwire, since a bulb throws light (almost) uniformly in all directions, you end up losing nearly 1/2 the light when focused tightly. If you're already putting together a DX order for your light, it may make sense just to throw one in, for simplicity's sake, but I'd recommend one of the incan-purpose Mag reflectors from KD if you're shopping for a cheapish reflector (yeah, 3x as much, but still free shipping = ~50% the higher-end options when bought alone), or better yet a Modamag M2 if you can get enough of an order together from The Sandwich Shoppe to justify shipping.

EDIT: Just hit me, you're probably talking about removing the ~50mm threads at the top, not the threads at the bottom for the pill (in sku.13803).

Yes, I was talking about the pill-less 12229 and removing the 53mm threads. Someone else on CPF mentioned what a nice round hotspot it gave the PH 5761 and he was right. I have KD v1 and v2 Mag MOP reflectors and that DX 12229 blows them away for the 5761 IMO. I also tried the KD equivalent of DX 12229 and was very disapointed that it was very different (deeper & hotpot less tight). Also, for an even larger filament bulb (Osram 64440s), I found that better than any of the above KD/DX parts was the reflector from a WF-500 lamp assembly with the bottom ground off and the hole reamed wider (and the 53mm threads ground off).

Any updates Techjunkie? Have you blown any bulbs yet?

Everything but the Hikari, but I should mention that I have yet to try the Hikari with hot batteries right off the charger. I usually let 'em rest/cool off before use.

[Kestrel]

For the folks here who aren't following it yet, there is another conversation going on about this bulb in Lux's Destructive Incan Bulbs thread.

I find this bulb pretty exciting, this will be only the second incan I've put together after an ROP (I dislike Mags longer than 2D). After Lux posts his data, I'll have to decide between 3xIMR26500 and 8xEneloop. I don't want to do a soft-start, so maybe 8xEneloop...

[Linger]

I ordered a set from ebay, reading the graphics on the package pictured behind the bulb to confirm maker.
Searching through bulb and lighting stores, many wanted to say Canada was an international order and my 5 bulbs was $493 dollars short of the minimum required order.
Anyone got a source to set up a GB?

[Techjunkie]

OK, first happened. I just tried three fully charged IMR batteries hot off the charger and also removed the plastic edge from the bottom of the Mag switch to allow the flat topped IMR battery to make direct contact with the positive spring. I was formerly using a 9mm diameter magnetic spacer (against AW's recommendation) to create a nipple on the top battery. Between the fresh charge and the removal of the magnet, I think it was more than the bulb could handle. I still think this is a killer combination of batteries and bulb (no pun intended), but I now realize it makes sense to condition the batteries using a bigger bulb first, like the Hikari 12V 35W bulb, to take pack voltage down a bit first. Based on success with 12.4V open pack (and magnet) before, I'm thinking 12.3V open pack (4.1V per battery) is safe territory. Update: I've just conditioned the pack down to 12.28V right out of the torch, then waited for the 35W bulb to cool and the batteries to bounce back a bit. After reinstalling the original JC5607 I was using initially (for the poof-test below, I used the one sample I had with an off-center filament) the battery pack had recovered to 12.35V. On that pack, the bulb is holding steady at 4.92A draw measured at the tail cap and no poof.



Also, for what it's worth I had one of the other brands of bulb that I tried left over and after the Hikari didn't pop on the 12.35V pack I tried the Eiko bulb and it did go :

(Eiko bulb to avoid: http://www.bulbtronics.com/Search-Th...=WKJCD6V20WH20). Hikari bulb definitely takes more abuse.

Oh, by the way, Happy International Flashlight Day! (Dec. 21st).