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Thread: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

  1. #331
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshconsulting View Post
    I agree with the RCR123 vs 14500. It's hard to believe the 123 is barely making 200 OTF while the 14500 does 323. My 123 draws 1.31A, the AA would have to be pushing 2A to make that much OTF. That's well above the discharge limit for 14500 LiPo cells, and seems like it would burn up an XPG in that small of a host.

    Is it possible you got a high vF or faulty 123? Any tailcap readings on the 14500? It seems hard to believe that the lights could vary so wildly - the batteries are the same capacity with similar discharge curves.


    I will try and take tailcap readings, but how. Its a twistie on off with no tailcap.

    Anybody can please shed some light on this???? How do you do these tailcap current readings with no tailcap?
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  2. #332

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    It should, but remember with a CR123 Mini it is designed for li-on or primaries.....These AA mini's are designed for a much broader voltage input and my guess is it is going direct drive, which is why its sooo bright and hot to the tough.

    actually I think the AA mini's are designed for a lesser voltage range, not a "broader" voltage range. Probably the reason the mini is so bright with a 3 plus Volt 14500 battery is that the circuit is a boost for voltages from 0.7 up to 1.7 (approximately) and that driving it with 3V or so is going way above the boost. Current does not have to be in the 2 amp range, it only has to be 1.5 amps range, approximately. It could be 1.44 amps, it could be 1.56 amps, maybe 1.62. Doesn't have to be 2 amps to get this output level.

    You run the risk of destroying the driver by continuing to drive something designed to take 1 AA battery with up to 1.7V with a 3V or more lithium ion battery. You won't know till its too late.

  3. #333
    Flashaholic* ti-force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    It should, but remember with a CR123 Mini it is designed for li-on or primaries.....These AA mini's are designed for a much broader voltage input and my guess is it is going direct drive, which is why its sooo bright and hot to the tough.

    Oh, it's a Quark Mini AA.

    For some reason I thought this was a regular AA Quark, and I was just about to order one if it had that kind of performance. During the 3 minute test, it doesn't look like OTF lumens suffer much at all from the heat. Thermal transfer must be pretty good with that light? I'm guessing you used your hand to draw some heat from the light?

  4. #334

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGman View Post
    actually I think the AA mini's are designed for a lesser voltage range, not a "broader" voltage range. Probably the reason the mini is so bright with a 3 plus Volt 14500 battery is that the circuit is a boost for voltages from 0.7 up to 1.7 (approximately) and that driving it with 3V or so is going way above the boost. Current does not have to be in the 2 amp range, it only has to be 1.5 amps range, approximately. It could be 1.44 amps, it could be 1.56 amps, maybe 1.62. Doesn't have to be 2 amps to get this output level.

    You run the risk of destroying the driver by continuing to drive something designed to take 1 AA battery with up to 1.7V with a 3V or more lithium ion battery. You won't know till its too late.
    If it was getting 330 OTF with 1.44A, why would a 123 MiNi be getting 200 OTF with 1.31A? Even without thermal issues, it would have to have 2.17A assuming a 1:1 scaling between power and brightness (NOT happening with an XP-G at these levels). If all readings were accurate and mine and your quarks identical, the drive current would likely have to approach 2.5A. That or something was wrong with your MiNi 123.

    Jose, it's not too difficult to take tailcap readings. Unscrew the head from the body. Set the head down flat on a level surface. Put the battery in, positive touching the head, and slide it sideways so there's a small gap between the battery and the side of the tube. Take a wire, and push it down snug against the head on the inside of the tube. Use a voltmeter to touch the negative battery contact and the wire. Current will flow from the battery's positive terminal into the head, through the LED, then back out the side of the head through the wire into the voltmeter.

    You can see an inner circle and outer circle in the head - the inner circle (where the positive battery contact touches) is positive. The outer circle, which the body tube is designed to make contact with when screwed in tightly, is negative. If you use a wire and voltmeter to complete the circuit between the negative outer circle and the negative battery terminal instead of the body tube, you can get an accurate amp reading.

    Sorry if that was confusing. I can try to get a picture if you want.
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  5. #335
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Hmm.. It looks like fully optimized for 18650 or not, CR123s are not the way to go - even for this version.
    Just like Anto's 1.4A drop-in; the drop is quite a lot.

    Guess I'll have to get a charger come summer.

    Any aftermarket Optics around that we can stick on this or any other P60 drop-in?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    I don't know if the current at the LED is 1.5A. I also noticed with primaries CR123/RCR 123 type the output was much much less with both the single mode and 3 mode Thrunite drop-ins. This leads me to conclude that the driver works best at 8V input +.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superorb View Post
    There's a 2.7-4.2v Drop-in made for 1x18650 coming out later this week that will be full output, I can't wait!!

  6. #336

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGman View Post
    actually I think the AA mini's are designed for a lesser voltage range, not a "broader" voltage range. Probably the reason the mini is so bright with a 3 plus Volt 14500 battery is that the circuit is a boost for voltages from 0.7 up to 1.7 (approximately) and that driving it with 3V or so is going way above the boost. Current does not have to be in the 2 amp range, it only has to be 1.5 amps range, approximately. It could be 1.44 amps, it could be 1.56 amps, maybe 1.62. Doesn't have to be 2 amps to get this output level.

    You run the risk of destroying the driver by continuing to drive something designed to take 1 AA battery with up to 1.7V with a 3V or more lithium ion battery. You won't know till its too late.
    For 300 lumens from a AA mini I'll gladly take the chance of toasting it BUT only if we're absolutely sure that's a correct reading. I'd love to see a beamshot of the AA with 14500 next to the CR123 with IMR123. If the AA mini is much brighter I'm buying one. Otherwise not.

    Now I'd prefer the titanium version but I assume output would suffer with titanium.

  7. #337
    Flashaholic* Paul_in_Maryland's Avatar
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    Default how about 260+ OTF lumens from 1 non-lithium AA?

    Any day now, I'll receive my 3-level Dereelight 0.9-4.2V XPG-R5 drop-in, direct from Dereelight in Asia. I've read, somewhere, that it will draw 1.8A from a AA cell--presumably, from a NiMH cell like a Sanyo Eneloop. Mine will be used in a FiveMega 1xAA body and powered by a nickel-zinc (NiZn) AA cell that should deliver 1.55 to 1.6V under a 1.8A load for the first minute. I hope to see at least 260 out-the-front lumens at 1 minute.

    I can't think of another 1xAA body that can accept a P60 drop-in. Can anyone? The only alternative I'm aware of is to use a FiveMega 1x18500 body and fit it with some kind of sleeve to keep the AA from rattling.
    My lights, all AA, neutral or warm: 3 Fenix TK20s; 2 Malkoff M30WFs; 2 Shiningbeam Romisens (5A); Dereelight XP-G R5 (close enough); UK 4AA incan.

  8. #338
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: how about 260+ OTF lumens from 1 non-lithium AA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_in_Maryland View Post
    Any day now, I'll receive my 3-level Dereelight 0.9-4.2V XPG-R5 drop-in, direct from Dereelight in Asia. I've read, somewhere, that it will draw 1.8A from a AA cell--presumably, from a NiMH cell like a Sanyo Eneloop. Mine will be used in a FiveMega 1xAA body and powered by a nickel-zinc (NiZn) AA cell that should deliver 1.55 to 1.6V under a 1.8A load for the first minute. I hope to see at least 260 out-the-front lumens at 1 minute.

    I can't think of another 1xAA body that can accept a P60 drop-in. Can anyone? The only alternative I'm aware of is to use a FiveMega 1x18500 body and fit it with some kind of sleeve to keep the AA from rattling.

    From my testing, they do pull 1.8A with a single li-on IMR 18650 or 3 NiMH AA cells. Once the voltage input drops to about 3.8~4v, the current drops to the intended 1.2A and stays pretty much there.

    I was told they go Direct Drive at or near 4.2V input, which it looks like it does.
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  9. #339
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Hi all,

    I re-tested the Thrunite XP-G R5 1.5A models with 2 IMR 16340 cells to see how they perform. Also, I put Arctic Silver 5 on the threads of the single mode only. This time I put a tiny bit just around the threads because it really is messy stuff. It improved just a tiny bit, not much.

    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

  10. #340

    Default Re: how about 260+ OTF lumens from 1 non-lithium AA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_in_Maryland View Post
    Any day now, I'll receive my 3-level Dereelight 0.9-4.2V XPG-R5 drop-in, direct from Dereelight in Asia. I've read, somewhere, that it will draw 1.8A from a AA cell--presumably, from a NiMH cell like a Sanyo Eneloop. Mine will be used in a FiveMega 1xAA body and powered by a nickel-zinc (NiZn) AA cell that should deliver 1.55 to 1.6V under a 1.8A load for the first minute. I hope to see at least 260 out-the-front lumens at 1 minute.
    1.8A at 1.6V is about 2.9W of power to the LED. Factor in driver efficiency (let's say it is 90% efficient to be generous), and the LED gets about 2.6W of power. Looking at the If vs Vf curve for the XP-G, Vf~3.25V and If~0.8A fits. At 0.8A drive, you'd probably get about 280 emitter lumens, so most likely less than the 260 OTF lumens you desire. But still good output.

  11. #341
    Flashaholic* psychbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: how about 260+ OTF lumens from 1 non-lithium AA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_in_Maryland View Post
    Any day now, I'll receive my 3-level Dereelight 0.9-4.2V XPG-R5 drop-in, direct from Dereelight in Asia. I've read, somewhere, that it will draw 1.8A from a AA cell--presumably, from a NiMH cell like a Sanyo Eneloop. Mine will be used in a FiveMega 1xAA body and powered by a nickel-zinc (NiZn) AA cell that should deliver 1.55 to 1.6V under a 1.8A load for the first minute. I hope to see at least 260 out-the-front lumens at 1 minute.

    I can't think of another 1xAA body that can accept a P60 drop-in. Can anyone? The only alternative I'm aware of is to use a FiveMega 1x18500 body and fit it with some kind of sleeve to keep the AA from rattling.
    those are the new low voltage ones that are supposed to work at full
    output with a single 18650 right?
    we need to get one of those to BIG C!!
    bring on the XPG output wars!!

  12. #342
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: how about 260+ OTF lumens from 1 non-lithium AA?

    Quote Originally Posted by psychbeat View Post
    those are the new low voltage ones that are supposed to work at full
    output with a single 18650 right?
    we need to get one of those to BIG C!!
    bring on the XPG output wars!!


    I did test the low voltage Dereelight XP-G R5 They go DD with 4.2V and 1.8A at the tail readings were had.

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  13. #343
    Flashaholic* psychbeat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.



    oooops I was thinking of the low voltage thrunite- still sleepy
    long night

  14. #344
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by psychbeat View Post


    oooops I was thinking of the low voltage thrunite- still sleepy
    long night

    The low voltage Thrunite XP-G R5 at 1.5A would be interesting to test. Considering the current one is at 400 real OTF lumens....

    Maybe someone will send one in.
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  15. #345
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    I don't think we are going to be able to determine if some of the low voltage XP-G drop ins are running in regulation or DD until we see some longer runtimes to 50%. To many variable here, heat, capacity of cells and their ability to handle current. We need BigWaffles back to do some runtime graphs.

    Bill

  16. #346

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    The low voltage Thrunite XP-G R5 at 1.5A would be interesting to test. Considering the current one is at 400 real OTF lumens....

    Maybe someone will send one in.
    400 lumens - wow ...and I have another brand in the mail - darn.

  17. #347
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    I have the Deal Extreme XP-G R5 4~18v drop-in too.


    It does 250ish OTF lumens, but the current is really hight at the tail with a single cell and the color shifts to blue. At which point the lumens drop in half. It does this with 2 li-on cells too.


    I will try a bit of AS5 see if that helps if so I will post my results.
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  18. #348
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Congrats to Thrunite for 400 turn-on OTF lumens. Unfortunately it looks like the output is dropping pretty quickly.

  19. #349

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    If the low voltage Thrunite gets 400 lumens from a single IMR18650 I'm in...and out. I'm in for the drop in and out of the house if wifey catches me ordering another P60 when I have one on the way already!

  20. #350
    Flashaholic* don.gwapo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    If the low voltage Thrunite gets 400 lumens from a single IMR18650 I'm in...and out. I'm in for the drop in and out of the house if wifey catches me ordering another P60 when I have one on the way already!
    Ha ha same here bro. No wifey but the mom & dad will. .

  21. #351
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Hello,
    can someone explain why the output for the ITP a1 would be so dramtically differen. When powered by the IMR 16340 vs. The RCR123?

  22. #352
    Flashaholic* was.lost.but.now.found's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by ky70 View Post
    Hello,
    can someone explain why the output for the ITP a1 would be so dramtically differen. When powered by the IMR 16340 vs. The RCR123?
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=161536

    IMR is designed for higher current and suffers less from voltage sag. In the correct application, using IMR can actually yield better mAH even though rated capacity is lower than a comparable conventional RCR123.

  23. #353
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by was.lost.but.now.found View Post
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=161536

    IMR is designed for higher current and suffers less from voltage sag. In the correct application, using IMR can actually yield better mAH even though rated capacity is lower than a comparable conventional RCR123.
    Thank you, but I'm still shocked to see that the IMR put out double the output of an RCR. Shouldn't the output be basically the same when put inside a light like the ITP A1? This light shouldn't be powerful enough to show any material differences in output between these two platforms should it?

    I may see the issue here...it says RCR 123 Primary. When I see RCR, my mind immediately says Li-on rechargeable, but this is likely not a rechargeable based on the output figures (which still seem low even if using primaries).

    Last edited by ky70; 03-31-2010 at 09:26 AM.

  24. #354
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    a Primary CR123/RCR only has 3V.

    An IMR 16340 provides 4.21v input with little if any voltage sag under load.

    The readings happen this way with almost any light tested. Even the Thrunite XP-G R5 1.5A version suffered this fate. Don't worry just get some IMR 16340's and you are good to go. If you like the AW CR123 li-ons those are good too.

    bigC
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  25. #355

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    a Primary CR123/RCR only has 3V.

    An IMR 16340 provides 4.21v input with little if any voltage sag under load.

    The readings happen this way with almost any light tested. Even the Thrunite XP-G R5 1.5A version suffered this fate. Don't worry just get some IMR 16340's and you are good to go. If you like the AW CR123 li-ons those are good too.

    bigC
    So will the IMR 16340's be better to use than the AW RCR123 black labels in a 6P or will it make a difference? How about with 18500's in a bored 9P? This would be the 3 mode 2.7 - 9V.

    What about with this new low volt model, 18650 IMR or AW 2600?

  26. #356
    Flashaholic* was.lost.but.now.found's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    a Primary CR123/RCR only has 3V.

    An IMR 16340 provides 4.21v input with little if any voltage sag under load.

    The readings happen this way with almost any light tested. Even the Thrunite XP-G R5 1.5A version suffered this fate. Don't worry just get some IMR 16340's and you are good to go. If you like the AW CR123 li-ons those are good too.

    bigC
    That's incorrect. RCR tops out at 4.2V, just like IRM, with a nominal average of 3.7V under load IIRC.

  27. #357
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by was.lost.but.now.found View Post
    That's incorrect. RCR tops out at 4.2V, just like IRM, with a nominal average of 3.7V under load IIRC.

    When I put RCR in the chart I meant CR123 Primaries like the Surefire brands. Sorry for the confussion.

    Look at the Quark 123Mini. It does a whole lot more OTF with IMR 16340 vs. the Surefire stock CR123.
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  28. #358
    Flashaholic* ti-force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by was.lost.but.now.found View Post
    That's incorrect. RCR tops out at 4.2V, just like IRM, with a nominal average of 3.7V under load IIRC.

    He's actually talking about primaries. Granted, he's calling a primary an RCR. I also consider an RCR to be a rechargeable 16340 Li-Ion, but I knew what he meant, and it doesn't help that 16340's are called 123's by one company, 16340's by another, and RCR123 by another. Kind of confusing really.

    *EDIT*
    Sorry Big C; you and I were typing at the same time (about five words per minute with my dumbphone).
    Last edited by ti-force; 03-31-2010 at 06:18 PM.

  29. #359

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    RCR123 = Rechargeable CR123. Heh~

    Dun worry about that, everyone makes mistakes.

    On another note, regarding the QMiNis, shouldn't the MiNi AA and MiNi 123 use the same driver (So should the Preons). The only explanation for the high lumens is the Vf is extremely different.

    Anyone can clear that up?

  30. #360
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by polkiuj View Post
    RCR123 = Rechargeable CR123. Heh~

    Dun worry about that, everyone makes mistakes.

    On another note, regarding the QMiNis, shouldn't the MiNi AA and MiNi 123 use the same driver (So should the Preons). The only explanation for the high lumens is the Vf is extremely different.

    Anyone can clear that up?

    The Mini123 I would imagine would have nominal voltage inputs from 3V~4.2v while the Mini AA is 1.5~4.2v. Maybe 4sevens can aswer the question, but yes I could have a lucky low Vf.

    I have the 2 Preon pen bezels as I type and was planning on testing them with the li-on AAA version I bet they will get hot hot hot.

    bigC
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