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Thread: Actual Lumen Readings in 10.5in Sphere.

  1. #91

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    DANNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGG big C, your just going to town on all these readings. Great job.

  2. #92
    Flashaholic* was.lost.but.now.found's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Big C, very nice work. While we may not all say it all the time, your thread gets tons of views and I'm sure I speak for everyone here that this public service is very much appreciated.

    A couple questions/observations, on the TK40, I noticed the lumens started to rise at 3 minutes, do you think the batteries started to get warm and perform better as the light began to warm? Second, on the LD10, I believe that should be 1xAA, either that or the sender had the LD10 head on an LD20 body (LD10 - 1xAA, LD20 - 2xAA).

    Thanks for all you do!!

  3. #93
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Where did those so-called 630 OTF lumens claimed by the Fenix go?

  4. #94

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Surprising that the AW/XP-G R4 and SSC P4 U2 towers measured so low. When I ceiling bounced those and other similar towers, they were all comparable to or brighter than a Malkoff M30. Also, I measured the drive current from the drivers to the LED. To get 170 OTF lumens from an XP-G R4, the drive current would have to be closer to about 750mA (assuming 30% optical losses from the reflector and the window), whereas I measured 1196mA drive current from the SOB1227. Similarly for the P4 tower, I measured 964mA drive current from the SOB1000. The P4 is a U2-bin from Photonfanatic, so it should be up to spec, meaning at least 100 emitter lumens at 350mA. To get 120 OTF lumens, the drive current would have to be around 700mA, again assuming 30% optical losses.

  5. #95
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    Where did those so-called 630 OTF lumens claimed by the Fenix go?
    Even Light Reviews measured 626 (obviously VERY close to 630), but then I'm not an expert on the complexities of an IS.

    http://www.light-reviews.com/forum/v....php?f=4&t=122

  6. #96
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    Surprising that the AW/XP-G R4 and SSC P4 U2 towers measured so low. When I ceiling bounced those and other similar towers, they were all comparable to or brighter than a Malkoff M30. Also, I measured the drive current from the drivers to the LED. To get 170 OTF lumens from an XP-G R4, the drive current would have to be closer to about 750mA (assuming 30% optical losses from the reflector and the window), whereas I measured 1196mA drive current from the SOB1227. Similarly for the P4 tower, I measured 964mA drive current from the SOB1000. The P4 is a U2-bin from Photonfanatic, so it should be up to spec, meaning at least 100 emitter lumens at 350mA. To get 120 OTF lumens, the drive current would have to be around 700mA, again assuming 30% optical losses.
    Justin,
    The KT-4 bezels I am not sure are AR coated. More importantly the Surefire KT-4 bezels have a shock isolation that in M series bezels for example we loose at least 15~20% OTF lumens.

    Jaudice will have a KT-2 bezel which doesn't have that shock isolation ring and he said it might even have AR coated lens too. Once John gets them we can re-test and you can expect those lumens to go up
    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

  7. #97

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    Surprising that the AW/XP-G R4 and SSC P4 U2 towers measured so low. When I ceiling bounced those and other similar towers, they were all comparable to or brighter than a Malkoff M30. Also, I measured the drive current from the drivers to the LED. To get 170 OTF lumens from an XP-G R4, the drive current would have to be closer to about 750mA (assuming 30% optical losses from the reflector and the window), whereas I measured 1196mA drive current from the SOB1227. Similarly for the P4 tower, I measured 964mA drive current from the SOB1000. The P4 is a U2-bin from Photonfanatic, so it should be up to spec, meaning at least 100 emitter lumens at 350mA. To get 120 OTF lumens, the drive current would have to be around 700mA, again assuming 30% optical losses.
    Justin;

    Those towers were tested in a KT4 turbohead. BigChelis' data suggests that the foam shock-isolation causes an additional 10% light loss. This is due to the black foam absorbing so much light. I can retest those towers using a KT1/2, and we'll see what they read.

    I agree that visually, those towers seem brighter.

    -John

  8. #98
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by was.lost.but.now.found View Post
    Even Light Reviews measured 626 (obviously VERY close to 630), but then I'm not an expert on the complexities of an IS.

    http://www.light-reviews.com/forum/v....php?f=4&t=122

    If they measure instant-peak no doubt it will be way over 600 OTF, but I don't like to do those measurements because instant peak is between 0~1 sec. I rather do the 1 second reading because our eyes will actually see the 1 second reading.

    The TK40 is very stable with little if any drop. The MC-E is regulated and you can see the lumens go up after turn-on due to that.
    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

  9. #99

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    BigC;

    Funny, we posted almost exactly the same substance from our conversation last night.

    Alternately, we could test the tower alone, without a turbohead, for another reading?

    -John

  10. #100
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGman View Post
    DANNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGG big C, your just going to town on all these readings. Great job.


    I think I am going over doing it. I will have another Anto XP-G R5 for re-testing soon. As you saw the lumens on mine dropped super fast compared to the R4 sample.
    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

  11. #101

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Can you test just the bare tower? That would be interesting to see what the lumens loss is when you then add a KT1/2 or a KT4 TH.

    It must be some serious loss. Just on paper, you'd think that an XP-G R4 driven at ~1200mA would deliver about 2.7 * 130 = 350 emitter lumens. So we are looking at ~50% loss. Same for the P4 tower -- 230 emitter lumens down to 120 OTF lumens.

    So it would be cool if you had a suite of SureFire THs -- KT1/2, KT4, SRTH, and TRTH -- for testing to identify which one has the least loss due to structural masking.

    Another interesting thing to examine would be the loss when using an incandescent tower, instead of an LED tower. Thus, test a bare MN20, for example. Then attach various SF THs and re-test.

    Regarding SF's Pyrex/Boro windows, I can see the telltale greenish tinge of an antireflection coating on the window for a Z44. I don't see anything for the KT THs. However, SF's web site states that the KT1/2 THs use an "optically coated" window. No such claim for the KT4.

    So perhaps the KT1/2 is the superior TH vs the KT4 in terms of light transmission and heat sinking.

    Edit: I note that the SureFire 2008 Illumination Tools catalog says that the KT4 TH uses a "coated" window.
    Last edited by Justin Case; 02-26-2010 at 02:18 PM.

  12. #102
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Last night we tested Kramer5150 P60 R2 drop-in in a 6P hosts with UCL lens and it was 200 OTF. Then we put on a M2 stock bezel and we got 170ish OTF.

    Krammer5150,

    Was it an R2? and can you give the exact OTF lumens just by switching bezels please.

    Thanks,
    bigC
    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

  13. #103

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    The M2 bezel is the current version of the Z32 shock bezel, correct? So it suffers about 15% loss vs the Z44? Or is that a Z44 with a UCL (presumably from flashlightlens.com) in place of the stock coated Pyrex/Boro?

  14. #104

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    Can you test just the bare tower? That would be interesting to see what the lumens loss is when you then add a KT1/2 or a KT4 TH.
    Sure, I'll do that the next time I head over to BigC's. I'm interested in seeing the results, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    So it would be cool if you had a suite of SureFire THs -- KT1/2, KT4, SRTH, and TRTH -- for testing to identify which one has the least loss due to structural masking.
    I have a KT1/2 and the KT4 which was used for testing last night, so a comparison will be easy. Tracking down a SRTH and/or TRTH will be a little more difficult. Unless you want to let us borrow yours for a testing session. (No worries if you don't. I consider those sufficiently irreplaceable that I probably wouldn't let them out of my sight, personally)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    Another interesting thing to examine would be the loss when using an incandescent tower, instead of an LED tower. Thus, test a bare MN20, for example. Then attach various SF THs and re-test.
    Okay, I can do that, too, next time I test. I don't have an MN20 handy, but I do have an 1185 on a FM MN tower, which I think will do nicely.


    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    So perhaps the KT1/2 is the superior TH vs the KT4 in terms of light transmission and heat sinking.
    I'm beginning to think that's the case. Further testing will reveal the answer, I'm sure.

    -John

  15. #105

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Justin;

    One additional variable we didn't control for in last night's testing is that your R4/SOB1227 tower was on a crenelated KT4 bezel, which will create additional light loss, since the crenelations by necessity protrude into the IS. Your P4/SOB1000 tower was tested in my other KT4, which as the smaller crenelations.

    BigC mentioned last night that have even a millimeter of black flashlight body protruding into the sphere caused a measureable decline in light. The black surface absorbs that much reflected light in the sphere, preventing it from being read in the meter.

    -John

  16. #106
    *Flashaholic* kramer5150's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchelis View Post
    Last night we tested Kramer5150 P60 R2 drop-in in a 6P hosts with UCL lens and it was 200 OTF. Then we put on a M2 stock bezel and we got 170ish OTF.

    Krammer5150,

    Was it an R2? and can you give the exact OTF lumens just by switching bezels please.

    Thanks,
    bigC
    The module that did 200OTF with your UCL/solarforce bezel was a DX sku.12501, Q2-5A BIN XR-E. I ran it with 2x16340, non-IMR cells in my M2 host body.

    When I put the stock M2 bezel back on Lumen output dropped to 170L OTF. So 30L is lost inside the shock isolation bezel.

    @Justin_Case: The M2 bezel is completely OEM stock, Pyrex lens, non-coated.

    I didn't do an extended 3 minute run, just glanced at the lumen output after ~15 seconds in each case.
    Last edited by kramer5150; 02-26-2010 at 06:48 PM.
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  17. #107
    *Flashaholic* kramer5150's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    Where did those so-called 630 OTF lumens claimed by the Fenix go?

    Its not specified anywhere but I suspect most manufacturers who publish OTF lumens, measure "instant peak". That is a semi-fictional output value. The light bursts on for a millisecond. That millisecond is enough time to register a peak-value by the Ft-candle meter, but no where near long enough duration for the human brain/eyes to detect.

    Publishing instant-burst Lumens is a very common practice (I suspect). Its very clear, from the measured data who publishes burst measurements and who does not.

    Thanks Jose for hosting yet another great mini-meet!!! we got to play around with a lot of great lights.
    Last edited by kramer5150; 02-26-2010 at 07:48 PM.
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  18. #108
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    It was a fun mini-meet. Thanks Jose .
    btw, I think I left a p10a and ld10 box at your apt.

  19. #109
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by dandism View Post
    It was a fun mini-meet. Thanks Jose .
    btw, I think I left a p10a and ld10 box at your apt.
    You sure did.
    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

  20. #110

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Your data has lots of interesting stuff in it.

    The SF U2A clocks in at ~130 lumens initially. I've measured about 915mA drive current for one of the Seoul P4 U2As. How much loss do you think you get going from emitter to OTF lumens for the U2A? 20%? 30%? If it's 30%, the emitter could be a U1 bin. If it's 20%, it could be a T1 bin.

    The Malkoff Mag drop-in shows a sudden drop in initial output followed by fairly steady running. It would be interesting to try NiMH cells instead of alkalines to see if the drop is from battery voltage sag. With such a massive copper heat sink, I wouldn't think that the lumens drop is from heat. I also thought that Malkoff Mag drop-in was a 2D-3D drop-in. Am I misremembering?

  21. #111
    *Flashaholic* kramer5150's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    @Justin_case... I was very impressed with your handiwork. great DIY skills my friend!!
    CLICK HERE for my flashlight reviews.
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  22. #112

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    kramer5150, thanks for the kind words.

    Jaundice, it will be interesting to see how the lumens output holds up vs time when you use your KT1/2 TH. I measured a significant difference in heat sinking capability for the KT1/2 vs KT4 in this post.

  23. #113
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Deleted
    Last edited by Dole; 02-26-2010 at 10:33 PM. Reason: found more proper thread
    My lights: Fenix P3D Q5, Dereelight DBS V2 MC-E, EagleTac T20C2 MkII, Quark Mini 123, Fenix E01

  24. #114
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Excuse me as I ask around for answers!

    Since this is the spot for discussion & IS readings of the new Eagletacs; opinions on lux between the XPG and R2 models?
    Hotspot is bigger, but quoted lux @ 1m(sorry can't find a definitive lux page ) measurements [for OP reflector] fall from 15,000 to 8,000 lux.

    Those that can compare does this correlate with what you see with your own eyes [for Smooth reflectors]?

    I'm also curious about A) Hotspot size & B) Lux between these 3 similar models
    T20C2 XPG
    Anto's R5 P60
    & E2DL ("200 lumen" version) - I miss my E2DL I think I'm going to get another one! When I do I'll send it in.


  25. #115

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    The Malkoff Mag drop-in shows a sudden drop in initial output followed by fairly steady running. It would be interesting to try NiMH cells instead of alkalines to see if the drop is from battery voltage sag. With such a massive copper heat sink, I wouldn't think that the lumens drop is from heat. I also thought that Malkoff Mag drop-in was a 2D-3D drop-in. Am I misremembering?
    Justin;

    The drop-in is marked 2-4D cells. I have an email out to Malkoff asking specifically about the driver. No word yet on the voltage specs, output, etc.

    -John

  26. #116

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    Jaundice, it will be interesting to see how the lumens output holds up vs time when you use your KT1/2 TH. I measured a significant difference in heat sinking capability for the KT1/2 vs KT4 in this post.
    Yes, that will be my next round of testing. I think we'll get some good data.

    -John

  27. #117
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    Popcorn Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    You know what I just realized? We need volunteers to send in their:

    2008 120 lumen E2DL(s)
    2009 120 lumen E2DL(s)
    2010 200 lumen E2DL(s)

    & 2010 200 lumen LX2(s)

    Let's solve the mystery once and for all!!

  28. #118
    Flashaholic* bigchelis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by sfca View Post
    You know what I just realized? We need volunteers to send in their:

    2008 120 lumen E2DL(s)
    2009 120 lumen E2DL(s)
    2010 200 lumen E2DL(s)

    & 2010 200 lumen LX2(s)

    Let's solve the mystery once and for all!!
    MrGman measured his 2009 E2DL 120 lumen light and it was 200ish OTF.

    A new LX2 Surefire hasn't been measured by us and I would like to see what they do as welll. My guess is at least 200 OTF, but no more than 300 OTF.
    Surefire 6P with Malkoff M60 simple, bright, efficient.

  29. #119
    Flashaholic* Databyter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Cool comparisons although you have the 9 aa solution for 1185 listed as

    3D Mag w/bi-pin kit_____WA1185____________9 eneloops w/ 12.6v pack ________716.2____1 sec
    3D Mag w/bi-pin kit________WA1185______________9 eneloops w/ 12.6v pack____________643.8____30 sec
    3D Mag w/bi-pin kit________WA1185______________9 eneloops w/ 12.6v pack____________619.2____1 min
    3D Mag w/bi-pin kit________WA1185______________9 eneloops w/ 12.6v pack____________607.7____2 min
    3D Mag w/bi-pin kit________WA1185______________9 eneloops w/ 12.6v pack____________606.2____3 min
    3D Mag w/bi-pin kit________WA1185______________9 eneloops w/ 12.6v pack____________606.9____4 min

    It should be 10.8 V.

    This is a great chart! I believe the accuracy is very good.
    I believe my 9AA pack puts out a bit more more lumens than this now that I have put in a soft start switch, I think it really helped the current, and I already had the tailspring mod.
    This kind of chart is great for comparitive putposes though. I'm seeing the 3IMR's put out more lumens for M*G 85, but now that mine is crazy bright with the new switch, I'd rather stick with some batteries I don't have to baby sit, and can run down a bit in a pinch. For that purpose alone I think it has more "usable" run-time than the 3 IMR's
    I can't wait to try the 1909 and Hikari bulbs in my MaG85 Build with my new low resistance fix. I was pulling 3.1 amps at the tail, now I'm pulling 3.35 at the tail. It's a very noticable increase in lumens (800 lumens to 1200 lumens estimated at bulb per destructive chart)
    Thanks for this great roundup, I think this is gonna have to be added to my bookmarks.
    Last edited by Databyter; 02-27-2010 at 11:35 PM.
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  30. #120

    Default Re: Actual Lumen Readings by bigchelis in 10.5in Sphere.

    Any chance of getting a Quark Mini 123 on CR123/RCR123s? I'm thinking of getting one, but I'll probably wait 1-5 months until the neutral XP-Gs come out.
    Light progression: Minimag Incan -> Inova X5 -> Minimag LED -> DX AKOray K-106 -> Solarforce L2p with SST-50 -> DBS V3 with SST-50
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