Are 18650's practical?

Votekinky06

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I wanted a rechargeable alternative to the cr123a batteries, so I ordered some 18650's and a charger. Unfortunately I didn't read the forum before placing this order and it now seems that I'm in over my head:confused: Now I need a digital multimeter and a discharger too? Everything I've read makes these things sound like ticking timebombs that you have to always check voltages on. I'm going to have a light in my car, can I not use an 18650 in it because of the heat? Is there a battery that I can just plug in until it's charged and use until it dies?
 

John_Galt

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^^^ Not for everyone, is the easiest answer.

If you are going to be willing to constantly monitor, maintain and check on the cells, in every stage of storage and use, or have an application that requires lots of light for every day use, and need long runtimes, then the "free" (meaning cheaper in the long run) lumens from rechargeable s are worth it.

Li-ions are a nasty animal. They can be your best friend or your worst enemy. They can't be used in all lights, for a variety of reasons: too large in diameter, the driver doesn't support 18650 compatibility, the light may overdischarge unprotected cells, damaging them and increasing the risk of an explosive venting scenario.
What type of light was it? Can you provide a link to the dealer, and wherever you bought your batteries and chargers?
Li-ions do not like extreme temperatures, or constant changes in temperature. Storing them in a glove box and leaving them for a long time is not a suitable application, as they may self-discharge rather quickly, and be damaged. Emergency lights are always an application for primary cells (read: disposable batteries).
Read up on the dangers of Li-ion, and decide whether or not you'll be willing to take the time needed to use them safely, or whether youshould return them...
 

Votekinky06

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Well, I bought the ultrafire red 18650's and 139 charger from DX. In the last week I've purchased an A10, TK11, DBS, and M1X. I'm thinking two of these will be used daily and two will go into gloveboxes. So you think after playing with them enough to figure out which ones will be my primaries I should use the rechargables in them and put cr123a's in the gloveboxes? How often do I need to check the voltage on the rechargeables? I'm having trouble finding a real step-by-step guide to the charging and maintenance required with these.
 

VidPro

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we plop li-ion in cars, and figure it different.
not why would i put a lithium battery in a hot car, but why treat anything in the car that way. and that solves that problem quick :)
cell phone (li-ion) , gps (li-ion), Laptop (li-ion), the plastic on the dash, the vinyl or leather seats, the CD/DVD and its laser which likes to be cooled. the UV bleaching, what about the gas even :) Fix the car, and the battery will follow.
Reflective windsheild sun screens for example.

although you say cheap china li-ion and they last 2-4 year about , and in car is just going to sit there and rot away :) mabey 123 better idea, they will last 10 years. when it comes to Unused till needed, many rechargables are not a good choice for that. when it comes to seriously using it often, only rechargables will do.


First safety is making sure nothing goes badly, do that and it rarely does, all the TALK about it, is just so things don't go badly, so they rarely do. another problem solved.
with cheap 2x123 or cheap 18650 being the 2 choices, the 18650 is actually safer.
but learn a bit and talk about it, so thing dont go badly and they rarely will with either of them.
fix the knowlege and the battery will follow :)
 
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space-time

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Votekinky06: did you buy "protected" or "unprotected" Ultrafire 18650s? I see DX sells both.

The protected cells - at least AW's - cutoff when the voltage is too low in use or when the voltage gets too high during charging.
 
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march.brown

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I wanted a rechargeable alternative to the cr123a batteries, so I ordered some 18650's and a charger. Unfortunately I didn't read the forum before placing this order and it now seems that I'm in over my head:confused: Now I need a digital multimeter and a discharger too? Everything I've read makes these things sound like ticking timebombs that you have to always check voltages on. I'm going to have a light in my car, can I not use an 18650 in it because of the heat? Is there a battery that I can just plug in until it's charged and use until it dies?
.
If you want a battery that you can just plug in until it's charged and use until it dies then the nearest to that would be a low self discharge AA battery.

If on the other hand you want a battery that has lots of power for its size , then the 18650 is the one to go for ... I was a bit worried about Li-Ions when I first started , but with a little bit of care they pose no significant problems ... Bear in mind that there are posts on CPF that report explosions in torches that use ordinary everyday AA and AAA batteries , so problems are not just limited to Li-Ions ... Nobody writes in to say that their torch hasn't exploded ... It's like the Doctors Surgery ... People don't queue up to tell him that they are well !

Certainly if you are just now getting into 18650s , you would be initially better off with the protected ones ...Don't rely implicitly on the protection ... It is there as a last line of defence ... Treat them as you would an unprotected battery and you will be OK.

More care is needed in the charging and discharging of the Li-Ions ... After all , a highly tuned Ferrari needs more care than a VW Beetle or similar car but it's worth it in the end ... A digital voltmeter capable of reading 4.20 volts is handy as the amount of charge in a Li-Ion can be predicted by just measuring the open circuit battery voltage ... 4.20 volts is 100% full , 3.6 volts is empty , 3.85 volts is about 50% ... So a simple digital meter is all you need ... No need to mess about with the Amps or the Ohms ranges for the simple checks needed.

You do have to take care more with the charging of Li-Ions ... I check the voltage of the batteries every half hour or so ... Simply switch off the charger and remove the cells ... Check their open circuit volts are below (not above) 4.20 volts then put them back and switch the charger on again ... Eventually the chargers LEDs will tell you that the batteries are charged ... Check the batteries voltages again and put aside for an hour or so ... Check voltages again and this should be below 4.20 volts , say 4.18 or 4.19 volts ... That is perfect ... You can of course remove the batteries before the end of charge ... At 4.10 volts they will be about 90% full ... After a while it will become really easy !

Don't leave the charging process completely unattended for hours ... I do my checks ever half hour or so ... Don't forget and leave them charging overnight ... Chances are that they will be OK , but it is better to play safe.

You will find that multiple battery systems give the majority of the problems ... The reasons why are in other threads on CPF ... A single 18650 in a torch is much less dangerous.

Even with a protected battery , don't let the voltage go below 3.6 volts ... I tend to recharge when the voltage gets to 3.7 or even 3.8 volts ... I can go down to the 3.6 volts , but it doesn't matter as long as you don't over-discharge the battery ... You can top-up the charge whenever you want because the batteries don't really have a memory as some others do ... When you think that you have used your torch for a long time , just check the battery voltage when you get home to see how much charge you have left ... If it reads 3.80 volts for example , you know that there is still 40% left ... Please yourself whether you use it a bit more or top-up the charge again ... Your choice.

It isn't (as they say) rocket science , it is common sense.

I leave a 18650 torch in my car glove box and a 3AAA in the car too ... I also carry a very small (iTP A2) single AA torch in my pocket all the time ... If it is a boiling hot day , I would possibly leave the the car in the shade or maybe remove the torches , but being a bit lazy I tend to forget ... Most of the time , even in the cold weather , the torches stay in the car ... I top up the batteries before the Winter starts and again later in the Spring if I remember ... I do tend to rely on my every day carry torch though.

I hope that you don't get too paranoid about "time-bombs" etc. but it is worth the little bit of extra care to end up with a "brilliant" torch battery.

Sorry about the longish post.
.
 

Benson

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I wanted a rechargeable alternative to the cr123a batteries, so I ordered some 18650's and a charger. Unfortunately I didn't read the forum before placing this order and it now seems that I'm in over my head:confused: Now I need a digital multimeter and a discharger too? Everything I've read makes these things sound like ticking timebombs that you have to always check voltages on. I'm going to have a light in my car, can I not use an 18650 in it because of the heat? Is there a battery that I can just plug in until it's charged and use until it dies?

Given a light that takes 2xCR123A or 1x18650, and no test equipment of any sort in either case, you're rather safer using a decent protected 18650 and a decent charger than using CR123As.

Using CR123As in series can have seriously bad results if the cells are mismatched, and you currently have no way to check the cells you put in -- if you recieve a dud and a good cell in the same package and use them, it is quite possible to have the flashlight explode while in use. (The good cell continues to push current through the discharged cell, reverse charging it, heating it, and causing venting of gas and/or explosion.) If you have a battery tester (basically resistor + voltmeter), you can largely eliminate this risk.

The same light, when running a single 18650 cell, simply cannot suffer the same type of failure -- since there's one cell, it's either empty or full. If you overdischarge it, it will damage the battery, and may cause trouble (no explosion, but venting with flame) when you go to charge it, but there's no energy left to explode it in your light. The protection circuit is one line of defence against over-discharge, as is the feature of some chargers where it will refuse to charge a cell that's too low, but getting a voltmeter and checking your batteries before recharging is a rather good idea to be safe. It's also helpful as a "fuel gauge" to let you check how full your batteries are at any time.

Li-ions have a worse reputation for safety than primaries, but regardless of whether this is deserved or not in single-cell vs. single-cell or series vs. series applications, the safety benefit of switching from series to single-cell is definitely larger (especially if the normal precautions for series applications are unavailable), so if you're looking at switching from 2-cell CR123As to 1-cell 18650, I'd definitely recommend it.
 

old4570

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I wanted a rechargeable alternative to the cr123a batteries, so I ordered some 18650's and a charger. Unfortunately I didn't read the forum before placing this order and it now seems that I'm in over my head:confused: Now I need a digital multimeter and a discharger too? Everything I've read makes these things sound like ticking timebombs that you have to always check voltages on. I'm going to have a light in my car, can I not use an 18650 in it because of the heat? Is there a battery that I can just plug in until it's charged and use until it dies?

What ?

If you run a 3-4.2v light , it may have protection built in and may not function once you reach 3v ... Some protected 18650 will kick in the protection @ 2.75v so having a light that shuts down at 3v is better ...

Depending on what charger you buy , pulling the batteries off when the light goes green may very well give you 4.18 4.19 or 4.2v possibly a fraction more , and after 30 minutes rest you may find the voltage has dropped a little .

Using 18650 is not difficult , you just need to be aware of whats going on , what your light does etc ..

An easy way to check , is to try your light with a primary 3v CR123A ,
If it refuses to fire up with the primary , it has built in protection ..

Love the 18650 platform ...
 

kramer5150

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I wanted a rechargeable alternative to the cr123a batteries, so I ordered some 18650's and a charger. Unfortunately I didn't read the forum before placing this order and it now seems that I'm in over my head:confused: Now I need a digital multimeter and a discharger too? Everything I've read makes these things sound like ticking timebombs that you have to always check voltages on. I'm going to have a light in my car, can I not use an 18650 in it because of the heat? Is there a battery that I can just plug in until it's charged and use until it dies?


Discharger is not needed unless you are really into cell matching and need to charge/discharge repeatedly. For most users the light itself is a serviceable discharger.

I am just using a craftsman multi-meter, but there are better ones out there... probably for less $$$.

I am not sure how heat resistant 18650s are.

You can plug any cell in and just burn it off until it dies. Unprotected Lithium chemistries are unstable in this scenario, and NiMH doesn't like it that much either. I think high quality protected Lithium Ion might suit you, although I do not know how temperature resilient they are.:thinking:
 

BeeMan458

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I can see you guys don't work ladders/heights, attics or crawl spaces while being chased by stinging insects.

:whistle:

Are these charging batteries really that dangerous or are people just being overly cautious in their caveats regarding the deleterious nature of charging (or left in a hot truck) Li-Ions?

I'm new to the forum and the act of charging Li-Ions. I currently have a set of six protected, Ultrafire 18650's w/charger on order. They're coming from Singapore so they should be here in a year or two.

:eek:

I've always used fresh Surefire 123's and then tossed them. The world's going end because of my un-green behavior. And yes, if everybody did it, the world will end sooner.

:whistle:

If you're a hit and go, plug-n-play type of personality such as I,... :hitit:...any suggestions regarding hit and go care and feeding of 18650's or any other rechargeables such as rechargeable 123's. Or should I just have my battery charging license revoked and stick with disposables?

:naughty:
 
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kramer5150

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Are these charging batteries really that dangerous or are people just being overly cautious in their caveats regarding the deleterious nature of charging (or left in a hot truck) Li-Ions?


They are dangerous if used dangerously.... read the sticky at the top.

There are (on average) 1 or 2 flame/fire/vent occurrences every month on CPF. The majority of them involve over-discharging the cells in high current air tight applications. Over-charging incidences occur too, but are not as frequent.
 

BeeMan458

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They are dangerous if used dangerously.... read the sticky at the top.

I did what you suggested.

:eek:

Wow! I didn't know you had to have bomb disposal experience in order to be allowed to use these rechargeables.

Thanks for the reading suggestion.

:twothumbs
 

Benson

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They are dangerous if used dangerously.... read the sticky at the top.

There are (on average) 1 or 2 flame/fire/vent occurrences every month on CPF. The majority of them involve over-discharging the cells in high current air tight applications. Over-charging incidences occur too, but are not as frequent.
The majority of them involve over-discharging lithium primaries in high current air tight applications, and don't have anything to do with the risks of Li-ions.

EDIT: "Don't have anything to do with" is probably the wrong wording, after all you can in some cases blow up Li-ions by the same method of discharging an imbalanced stack at high rate, or even a balanced stack at crazy enough rates. But I mean that most of the cases you see here are not evidence of the dangers of Li-ion, and most definitely don't support CR123s as the "safe" option many people seem to think they are.
 
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yellow

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PROTECTED 18650 --> best cell for that size of light (2*AA, 2*CR123, 1*18650)

depending on the quality of the light!!! works in every climate thinkable.

no need to fear!
 
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