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Thread: CRI of White LEDs

  1. #1

    Lightbulb CRI of White LEDs

    CRI (Color rendering index) of white LEDs have been low in the region of CRI=70, compared to fluorescent lights even with the average consumer grade CFL from GE manages CRI=82.

    Some consider that white LEDs seem better than the low CRI may indicate -
    so much so that the CIE (International Commission on Illumination) had a paper out since 2007 suggesting that white LEDs should be assessed visually using the Gretag Macbeth ColorChecker chart.

    The Macbeth chart is the photographic industry standard for testing the color accuracy of digital cameras and film - digital camera tests these days use software to analyze the test photo results - some criticize the Macbeth chart for not having a wide enough gamut to use visually - yet that is precisely what the CIE are proposing - to use the Macbeth chart for visual assessment for the CRI of white LEDs.

    The abstract of the paper is on the CIE website:
    CIE TC 1-62

    on searching for a copy of CIE TC 1-62 I also came across these:

    Labsphere
    " What is the TC 1-62 Colour Rendering of White LEDs?

    The present color rendering system gives a poor rating for white LEDs yet the color appearance of white LEDs is better than color rendering index would suggest. This is a potential barrier to introduction of white LEDs into main stream applications so TC 1-62 was established to investigate, by visual experiments, color rendering properties of white LED light sources and to test the applicability of the CIE color rendering index to white LEDs.
    "

    Then -
    pdf VISUAL OBSERVATION OF COLOUR RENDERING
    from Colour and Multimedia Laboratory of the University of Veszprém, Hungary
    - where they followed the CIE TC 1-62 recommendation and used the Macbeth chart for the experiment
    the visual experiments look very interesting -
    their comments on the 4000K tests

    " As can be seen, there are huge differences in ordering the lamps according to visual or calculated colour difference. The exceptionally good visual performance of the traditional Cool White lamp is hard to understand, one reason might be that most of the test samples contained only very little long wave radiation. It is also of interest that the small peak wavelength difference between the two clusters produced a large difference in Ra. The rank order for the 6500 K series is the same for all four methods of evaluation. "

    I am not too sure if they have taken into account the human eye/brain behavior with different light levels -
    as shown in the Kruithof curve -
    could this have any bearing on their 4000K results?

    But best of all -
    I have found a copy of the CIE TC 1-62 paper that is currently viewable on line using embedded FlashPlayer:

    CIE 177 2007 - CIE TC 1-62 paper

  2. #2
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Interesting.

    Thanks for putting this up.

    I hate flourescent lights and find it hard to believe the CRI would be higher than even a warm white LED when compared.

    I have returned a couple of suits after taking them out of the garment bag at home only to find out they were a substantially different color / shade than what they appeared to be in the store.

    Just anecdotally it's no contest in what has the more accurate color rendering between the flourescents in my kitchen & warm white of an LF2XT & Quark mini aa (WW). Outside those two lights do a pretty good job of mimicking daylight against the trees & surrounding vegetation.

    Flourescents make everthing look rather "flat" to my eye.

    I'll check out the links.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Hi, it is a fascinating and complicated area, isn't it.

    IMHO, the main challenge with the CRI indication is that it is based on a rather poor reference - the incan bulb. As a practical matter, this means the noon day sun is also has a relatively poor CRI rating, in spite of the tendency of our eyes to be designed for its light.

    The whole area gets really interesting when you start putting in CCT preferences, which are somewhat genetically influenced. ( for instance, I prefer 5-6000 K, high spectral content light). Obtaining such an LED is nearly impossible, so I have to lower my goal to more like 4000K.

    The MacBeth / Munsel system is not ideal, but not all that bad either. Certainly for LED general lighting and flashlights, it is a marginal issue. When it comes to viewing fine photographs, life can be dicey.

    I saw a presentation on the possible influence of the MacBeth system, and it basically allowed a lot of discreet wavelengths to beat it, vs a nice continuous spectrum. Is that your interpretation?

    BTW - if you don't like tube FL lights, there is a good chance that you are just buying the wrong tube. Buy the ones that are daylight, high CRI and it is entirely a different experience.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Below 5000K, the CRI is based on comparison to a black body at the same color temperature. This means that a light with a good 2700K CRI, for example, would look and render colors quite differently than a light with good 4000K CRI. Above 5000K, a "phase" of daylight is used as the reference, so lights considered to have a color temperature in that range look different yet.

    Even for a single color temperature, lights with a particular CRI can have an infinite number of spectral shapes and correspondingly different appearance and color rendering. Trying to reduce an entire spectrum to a single number inevitably results in losing a lot of information. It's a mistake to consider CRI an absolute measure of anything, when at best it's a crude grouping based on somewhat arbitrary criteria.

    c_c

  5. #5
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryN View Post
    Hi, it is a fascinating and complicated area, isn't it.

    IMHO, the main challenge with the CRI indication is that it is based on a rather poor reference - the incan bulb. As a practical matter, this means the noon day sun is also has a relatively poor CRI rating, in spite of the tendency of our eyes to be designed for its light.

    The whole area gets really interesting when you start putting in CCT preferences, which are somewhat genetically influenced. ( for instance, I prefer 5-6000 K, high spectral content light). Obtaining such an LED is nearly impossible, so I have to lower my goal to more like 4000K.

    The MacBeth / Munsel system is not ideal, but not all that bad either. Certainly for LED general lighting and flashlights, it is a marginal issue. When it comes to viewing fine photographs, life can be dicey.

    I saw a presentation on the possible influence of the MacBeth system, and it basically allowed a lot of discreet wavelengths to beat it, vs a nice continuous spectrum. Is that your interpretation?

    BTW - if you don't like tube FL lights, there is a good chance that you are just buying the wrong tube. Buy the ones that are daylight, high CRI and it is entirely a different experience.

    I will take a look next time at what is available, maybe different tubes would be an improvement.
    I had planned on sticking in a skylight in the kitchen during a planned remodel, but even better rendering from higher CRI tubes would be an improvement.

    I had assumed (incorrectly) the higher the CRI the closer to natural sunlight of a given source.

    Thanks for getting into a bit more detail, it was an "ah ha!" moment.
    I'll finish checking out the linked papers before commenting much further, but when it comes to well done photos I can see the same issues (complaints) that a serious foodie / cook would in his kitchen.

    Both cases you are less than pleased with the way colors are represented with what is before you & it is less than satisfying to a discerning eye when looking at subject matter you really enjoy.

    Hopefully this isn't viewed as a minor "threadjacking" :-) by UnkownVT.
    Last edited by Chauncey Gardner; 05-05-2010 at 02:38 AM.

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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    What is the highest CRI available LED at the moment, suitable for a flashlight which could produce 200 or more OTF lumens and who produces them? Are they more expensive than "normal" LEDs?

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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Yavox View Post
    What is the highest CRI available LED at the moment, suitable for a flashlight which could produce 200 or more OTF lumens and who produces them? Are they more expensive than "normal" LEDs?
    That is a surprisingly difficult question. From prior attempts at making flashlights, I use "rated lumens / 2" to get OTF lumens. Using that derating factor, that means we need to look for an LED package with something like 400 lumens, or 4 each x 100 lumens.

    In the 4 each x 100 lumens, probably a high CRI Lumileds Rebel.

    In the 1 x 400 lumens, perhaps LEDEngin neutral or warm tint.
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious_character View Post
    Below 5000K, the CRI is based on comparison to a black body at the same color temperature. This means that a light with a good 2700K CRI, for example, would look and render colors quite differently than a light with good 4000K CRI. Above 5000K, a "phase" of daylight is used as the reference, so lights considered to have a color temperature in that range look different yet.

    Even for a single color temperature, lights with a particular CRI can have an infinite number of spectral shapes and correspondingly different appearance and color rendering. Trying to reduce an entire spectrum to a single number inevitably results in losing a lot of information. It's a mistake to consider CRI an absolute measure of anything, when at best it's a crude grouping based on somewhat arbitrary criteria.

    c_c
    CC - Thanks for that clarification. I will go back and look at those definitions again.

    Harry
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  9. #9

    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Much of these new 'findings' and demand for a revamped metric for rating visually pleasing CRI/Colro Temp was pretty much confirmed by research done by the 'quack' Aten Imago, a former CPF member.
    Here's the original article Presented to the IEEE, LRI Fully digested by HarryN
    --
    Theory & Method of LED Color Blending For Enhanced Nocturnal
    (Scotopic & Mesotopic) Subject Rendering

    Authors:

    Äten Imägo
    Imägo Metrics - Bethesda, MD - USA

    M.P.El-Darwish
    Geneva, Switzerland

    Version 2.0
    October 24, 2005


    “Optimizing Human / Technology Interaction Performance”




    Abstract

    This document lays out the theoretical and research basis for the optimization of LED color blending for the purpose of better aligning the requirements of night adapted human vision (AKA Scotopic/Mesotopic Vision) with the artificial LED source illuminations prevalent in personal illumination devices such as flashlights, bicycle lights and personal reading lamps.

    Keywords: Scotopic,Mesotopic,Photopic, Human Factors, Usability, Performance Optimization, Dichromasty, Night Adaptedness, Luxeon, LED, Flashlight, Reading Lamp, Vision, Amber, Straw, White


    CONTENTS
    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY 3
    A BRIEF HISTORICAL OVERVIEW OF THE CASE 4
    THEORETICAL BASIS 5
    Illumination brightness and contrast as influencers 6
    Conditions for optimized supplemental illumination 6
    Shortcomings of current LED emitters 8
    Methods for creating Amber/Straw/White light from combined beams 8
    FUTURE OPTIONS 9
    Design community barriers to blended LED theory 9
    Current design solutions in development 10
    REFERENCES 12



    Executive summary
    This document sets forth the theory and method associated with the blending the light of two or more high flux LEDs into a combined beam color that has a Color Rendering Index (CRI) as well as wavelength that is harmonized to the requirements of persons performing tasks in low or no ambient light conditions. The need for such a method is due to the lack of a suitable single emitter LED from the available manufactured stock.
    Who will benefit from combined color LED arrays?
    o Individuals that have benefited from the wavelength of light produced by incandescent lights in the 3,000ºK to 4,000ºK range.
    o Individuals seeking variable combination beam colors
    o Stakeholder communities that are developing large scale environmental lighting - using LEDs to replace incandescent lights.
    o Manufacturers looking for ways to expand the markets for their products.

    Benefits
    What benefits can be expected?
    o Abandonment of incandescent bulbs
    o Reduced cost of bulb replacement
    o Elimination of color interaction issues resulting from the use of current LEDs
    o Introduction of nuanced white combination arrays
    o Increased sales opportunities
    Productivity Enhancements
    What benefit in productivity will result from this process?
    o A competitive edge: Manufacturers, Distributors and Customers will flock to this solution, until a single optimum emitter bin color is introduced
    o Enables end-users to experience the same advantages from an combined LED array that is currently available to users of incandescent bulbs
    o This is a gap filling solution that will bridge a potentially long cycle in the High Flux design process


    Improvements Realized in Actual Use
    Improvements will be realized as a result of:
    o Reduced eye-strain
    o Reduced user errors that can slow productivity down
    o Increased speed of object identification as well as spatial navigation

    The argument for an Amber/Straw/White VS Daylight LED source
    A brief historical overview of the case
    Taken from a layman's point of view and then underscored by empirical science, the argument for an Amber/Straw/White light for night-adapted illumination, versus a Daylight white is thus:
    The current human visual sensory array of Retinal Rods & Cones evolved from a biologically adapted array that deliberately took advantage of the wavelength of light produced by flames. Flames such as those from camp fires, torches and later- oil lamps, candles and gas burning street lamps- invariably produced light that was Amber/Straw/White in wavelength.
    This represents an adaptive evolution of the retinal sensory array to coincide with the available wavelength of light. The result is that our visual system became calibrated to optimize night vision to this wavelength-that in layman's terms we have called Amber/Straw/White.
    The scientific deconstruction of this evolutionary trend leads to what we currently know about scotopic and mesotopic vision. What is known about scotopic vision is that Retinal cells called Rods are sensitive to very low levels of illumination and are responsible for our ability to see in dim light (scotopic vision). Rods contain a pigment with a maximum sensitivity at about 510 nm, in the green part of the spectrum. The rod pigment is often called visual purple since when it's extracted by chemists in sufficient quantities the pigment has a purple appearance. Scotopic vision is completely lacking in color; a single spectral sensitivity function is color-blind and thus scotopic vision is monochromatic.
    The situation becomes more complex when nocturnal vision combines night adapted or scotopic vision, with full color or photopic vision. Mesotopic vision is the scientific term for a combination between photopic vision and scotopic vision in low but not quite dark lighting situations.
    For example: the combination of the higher total sensitivity of the rods in the eye for the blue range with the color perception through the cones results in a very strong appearance of blueish colors (eg. flowers) around dawn.

    The human eye uses pure scotopic vision in the range below 0.034 cd/m2,and pure photopic vision in the range above 3.4 cd/m2.
    In the case of a general subject field that is a field of low contrast darkness that is then pierced by a smaller and localized region of illumination, the visual system works to resolve the brightness and color contrasts by combining the use of Rods and Cones. The resulting compromise illumination color that supports this effort is Amber/Straw/White - light near the 580nm region of the spectrum. This is the most productive supplementary illumination color space for both scotopic and mesotopic vision.
    Caveat Emptor - Just as the anthropological record depicts divergent geographical trends in the evolution of human sensory perception, we do not contend that the generalized statements made about human scotopic, mesotopic or photopic vision are absolute or universal. The nomadic peoples of the arctic circle, for example, seem to have evolved an ability to perceive color nocturnal contrast differently from those living on at equatorial latitudes.

    Theoretical basis
    The foregoing historical and scientific statements pertain to circumstances in which there is no ambient environmental light and the sole source of illumination is a highly localized one, such as might be generated by a flashlight, torch, candle or spotlight. The situation becomes more complex when one considers the following examples:
    o Low level and general blueish illumination such as may be produced by the full moon on a clear night
    o Low level and general Amber illumination such as might be produced by certain sodium vapor street light arrays
    In such cases, the visual system resolves these 'casts' so that they are not perceived as casts at all. When a bright and localized beam is then projected onto a target subject that is surrounded by a diffuse base illumination color, the visual system is shocked and the newly introduced light appears to have a cast that is typically the spectral compliment of the prevailing light. As an example- the introduction of an otherwise neutral and spectrally pure white beam of light from a flashlight into a scene that is bathed is the amber hue of sodium vapor street lights (AKA 'Crime Lights') creates a discontinuity in signals sent by Rods & Cones to the brain- resulting in a perception that the Daylight beam is actually Blue in hue. This discontinuity is greater when the localized beam is smaller. Expressed differently- as the field of supplemental illumination widens and exposes more retinal cells (Cones) to its wavelength, so in turn will the resolution or 'leveling' be more in favor of this localized beam color. In practical terms this means that in a situation of a low level of general illumination plus a localized supplemental light- the supplemental light wavelength should match that of the general illumination. Interestingly, this statement holds true in broad daylight as well!
    In cases where the general illumination is so low as to be negligible, then the sole and localized illumination source is optimally in the 580nm region of the spectrum.
    Illumination brightness and contrast as influencers
    Thus far we've only talked about the interactions of illumination source wavelengths in affecting perceived subject color and ease of night-adapted vision. Another part of the equation relates to the relative contrast and brightness of the scene and the target or 'focus' region within that scene.
    I've already touched on the discontinuity that occurs when a bright light of a different wavelength is projected into the scene. I'd like to comment on the added effect of brightness on the visual system's interpretation of colors.
    The prevalent thinking has been that the desirable torch or flashlight illumination is one that is closest to neutral daylight in color (approximately 5,400ºK) and brightness is as high as technically possible. Some manufacturers have gone so far as to insist that a bright narrow spotlight that is 5,400ºK in hue is the best solution to most personal illumination challenges. I beg to differ.
    Introducing a highly localized (spot) beam of light into a scene bathed in darkness creates havoc for fully night-adapted vision. Choosing to make that beam Daylight balance by default, compounds the shock and reduces night adaptedness which results in increased perceived contrast between the spotlit target and the surrounding scene. This predicament not only makes effective object identification more difficult and less effective- it also 'bleaches' Rods and renders them null- making perception of details in the surrounding scene very difficult if not impossible. In summary, we can make the following statements with regard to localized light brightness, focus and color.

    Conditions for optimized supplemental illumination
    o In cases where effective perception of shape and form in the prevailing and surrounding darkness is important:
    o Supplemental illumination level or brightness should only be just as bright as is necessary in order for the user to perceive sufficient detail in the subject for effective identification
    o The transition from focus (spot) to corona, penumbra and then surrounding darkness- should be as gradual as possible
    o If there is negligible or no ambient illumination, then a localized torch or flashlight beam color of Amber/Straw/White (580nm) is ideal
    o If there is a predominant ambient color, then matching that color will mitigate against a chromatic discontinuity that will likely result in the perception of a cast
    o The axis of illumination should be slightly off dead-center from the user's direct line of sight
    o In cases where the ambient illumination is broad daylight and the subject is located in a pocket of darkness:
    o The supplemental illumination level can be as bright as or slightly brighter than the ambient brightness level
    o The transition from focus (spot) to corona, penumbra and then surrounding brightness- may be abrupt
    o The supplemental illumination may be daylight or as close a match in color to that of the surrounding ambient scene
    o In such cases, there is no advantage in using light that is the same as that used for night and indeed doing so would be counterproductive
    o The axis of illumination should be slightly off dead-center from the users direct line of sight
    o In cases where the subject area is a significant portion of the overall scene
    o The supplemental illumination should cover as much of the target area as possible
    o The light should be as diffuse as possible
    o The axis of illumination should be slightly off dead-center from the users direct line of sight
    o In cases where the entire scene is an enclosure such a small room, passageway or container with reflective walls and a high degree of subject color differentiation is important
    o The supplemental illumination is more effective if it's a neutral white or slightly warm white in the 5,200ºK to 5,400ºK range with a Color Rendering Index (CRI) of between 90 and 100
    o The transition from focus (spot) to corona, penumbra and then surrounding darkness- should be as gradual as possible
    o The light should be as diffuse as possible
    o The axis of illumination should be slightly off dead-center from the users direct line of sight
    o The supplemental illumination level can be as bright as or slightly brighter than the ambient brightness level

    Shortcomings of current LED emitters
    Currently, LEDs are available in a wide range of colors. A narrow range of white LEDs have filled market needs for illumination that supplements or supplants the most neutral and highest color rendering Daylight. This is a boon to many industries that depend on repeatable, consistent and long-lived Daylight balanced artificial light.
    Unfortunately, the need for an Amber/Straw/White LED has been neglected for lack of a scientific basis for such a need. In addition, research and development efforts have understandably been focused on serving the growing demand for large-scale end uses, rather than the smaller demands of the personal illumination markets.
    The nearest to an ideal flashlight LED color for applications such as the outdoors markets, law enforcement, security and general consumer using such lights outdoors (as differentiated from high color differentiation applications), has existed in the form of an Amber Lumileds™ Luxeon™ emitter. A warmish white X bin LuxeonV emitter has also been a near proxy color. The Amber Lumileds™ Luxeon™ emitter is far too 'Orange' in cast to be useful for general applications. As a result, it is only through mixing of light from an Amber Lumileds™ Luxeon™ emitter with light from other White Lumileds™ Luxeon™ emitters that an output brightness and color optimized blended color can be achieved. This is the core of our theory.
    Methods for creating Amber/Straw/White light from combined beams
    There are two approaches for creating the target Amber/Straw/White beam at 580nm from Luxeon LEDs
    Approach 1 - Co-located flashlights
    The most obvious approach, and one that I used in initial experiments, simply entailed binding together three or four identical flashlights- one using a Lumileds Amber Luxeon LED and the remainder containing White Luxeon LEDs of the same color or BIN and the same output. The axes of the resulting cluster of lights were adjusted so that all the beams would overlap- creating the single blended beam.
    Approach 2 - Co-located emitters
    A more efficient and effective approach is to cluster either two, three or four white emitters around a single amber one and to then insert this array into a large flashlight. This latter method is currently popular in the design of products that seek to multiply the generated output from a fixed physical space inside a flashlight's head. Most typically, each emitter is contained in it's own reflector.

    The benefits of using Approach 2 include:
    o Ability to nuance the relative output between the Amber and White emitters
    o Ability to create massive banks of light for large-scale applications
    o Ability to replace one or more emitters to create special effects
    o Smoother beam mixture
    o Resultant beam is more akin to that from an incandescent bulb flashlight
    Future Options

    In the future, Lumileds may introduce an LED or series of LEDs that emit beam colors that are comparable to those currently produced by incandescent bulbs. In the interim, another evolutionary stage may involve the use of the new K2 series of Luxeon III emitters.

    This K2 series of emitters efficiently dissipates heat, a shortcoming of the prior generation of Luxeon III.

    One advantage of this to the flashlight design engineer may include the ability to cluster a group of three, four and five emitters is very near proximity and in such a fashion that they may share one reflector. Though not necessarily envisioned for traditional flashlight designs, such arrays could be a boon to designers of illumination for other fixtures such as reading lamps, bicycle lights, camcorder lights, area lights and so forth. This would have the following advantages

    o Individual emitter/reflector pairs would not require as precise an alignment to remaining emitter/reflector pairs
    o A variable focus relationship between the cluster and single reflector could be established.
    Design community barriers to blended LED theory
    The design community in any domain of industry is responsible for driving changes that ultimately benefit the user/consumer. Understandably, barriers to change exist within the flashlight community. The following is a list of possible design community barriers and how they may be overcome
    o Cultural: The power of mass communication in disseminating information can result in 'mob mentality' or 'group-think', which can in turn result in sub optimal designs being adopted by masses of manufacturers. Once the concept of the LED as a light source for flashlights took hold, it was only a matter of time before cultural norms emerged that would set the stage for 'standards' of excellence in all aspects of LED use in flashlights. Changing the tone of these standards is critical to winning community adoption of a better design solution
    o Technical: Design is often constrained by technical limitations. Before the advent of user-centered design that took human factors into considerations, nearly all efforts in the design of LED based flashlights have been concentrated on increasing brightness, achieving as neutral a white beam as possible and optimizing battery usage. By changing the attitude to beam colors to include Amber/Straw/White as an option; previous constraints cease to be an issue- paving the way for wider adoption of the blended beam solution
    o Strategic: Manufacturers, while slow to making changes on a large scale- do notice design trends in the user community. Up-scaling adoption at the user level should drive changes up the value chain to the manufacturers- resulting in exponential changes across the entire flashlight landscape.

    Current design solutions in development
    Based solely on the 'prior art' trial experiments of imago Metrics's test of the multiple-lights with one being a Lumileds Luxeon III Amber, Andrew Wynn Rouse of Wynn Bright flashlights -with a mult-emitter light already in production immediately saw the possibility of replacing one of the four white emitters with an amber emitter which was furnished courtesy of Future Electronics - distribution partners for Lumileds, manufacturers of the Luxeon brand of LED emitters.

    The website containing the original pictures is here: http://rouse.com/RT4 (BAM+)

    There are BAM+ beam shots here: http://rouse.com/beams
    In the current design prototype, we did not have the physical space for a symmetrical array as is specified for the working prototype. Even so, the slight misalignment of the amber emitter in the array turned out not to be conspicuous in real-world use- though for aesthetic reasons we would like to continue development of a symmetrical array such as one amber surrounded by three white emitters (three points of an equilateral triangle) with a fourth, the amber emitter at the center.
    One symmetrical design currently in alpha stage, is a flashlight using one amber emitter flanked by two white ones. This design is named the MiniMighty flashlight.
    The results of preliminary trials show that a high-power LED array can match the illumination quality of a medium/high power 'hotwire' incandescent lights, with all the advantages of using LEDs and none of the disadvantages associated with incandescent lights.
    Prototypes in progress shall serve as proof of concept and as envisioned, will fill a gap currently unfilled by any solution other than filtration.
    In addition, future trials will include the ability to variably nuance the relative output of amber versus white emitters, so as to affect a range of color temperatures from 4,000ºK to 3,200ºK in addition to permitting variable brightness levels. Such fixtures could have far ranging applications in interior architectural illuminations, where nuanced illumination hues can have a bearing on the intended mood of the interior design setting as well as in supporting effective task illumination.

    References
    Ware, C (2000) Information Visualization- Perception for Design 103-149.
    Salvendy,G (1997) Handbook of Human Factors and Ergonomics (672,875-876,1737,1699,62-64,669,870,1735,862-863,176,872,59)
    Morris,A (1950)Visual acuity at Scotopic Levels of Illumination
    ______________________________________________
    © 2005 Imago Metrics LLC - All Rights Reserved

    Finally folks are coming around to understanding that interactions of localized ( ie flashlight, display light, area light) illuminations with ambient illumination, context of use and level of light are the key drivers for determining ideal CRI and not blind engineering combined with manufacturing capacity.

  10. #10

    Exclamation Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Archie Cruz View Post
    Much of these new 'findings' and demand for a revamped metric for rating visually pleasing CRI/Colro Temp was pretty much confirmed by research done by the 'quack' Aten Imago, a former CPF member.
    Here's the original article Presented to the IEEE, LRI Fully digested by HarryN
    Yes, well, there is more than one mechanism at play here -
    first I do not claim to be any expert on this and have found/learnt some of this as I went along.

    As mentioned CRI is very dependent on CCT (Correlated Color Temperature)
    eg: it may surprise many to learn that an incandescent/tungsten bulb rates CRI=100 (perfect) by definition, yet anyone who has taken a photo under tungsten lighting with daylight white balance (or daylight slide film) will know immediately that that the light is very yellow/amber - and will have difficulties seeing yellow on white or distinguishing navy from black - so how can it possibly be CRI=100 perfect?

    It is the way that CRI (color rendering index) is defined comparing to a reference black-body of the same color temperature - so an incandescent bulb is its own reference by the definition...... that's why it rates CRI=100.

    Whereas a 2700K CFL (compact fluorescent spiral) may only rate CRI=82 on average - but may actually contain more blue component so that it may be a tiny bit easier to see the difference between navy and black - but its CRI rates lower - because it is not exactly like a true tungsten bulb..... how's that for circular logic?

    A good white LED rates about CRI=70 and not much higher - and since there is a huge push to use LEDs for general lighting and a CRI=70 is very poor -
    one might suspect that the CIE (an accredited international body on illumination) proposal to use visual assessment for CRI of white LEDs might just be yielding a little to the pressure to use white LEDs for general lighting?
    eg: we might find that a white LED formerly rated at CRI=70 all of a sudden under the new CRI measurement guidelines rate in the 80's?
    So has that white LED improved?
    or just made more acceptable so that big corporations will start to use them to save energy......
    don't get me wrong saving energy is obviously a very good thing - but will our eyes appreciate this?

    Then there is this whole question of how our eyes/brain adapt to lighting levels - empirically our eyes follow the
    Kruithof curve
    that's why I questioned whether that experiment using the new CIE guidelines for CRI in the pdf VISUAL OBSERVATION OF COLOUR RENDERING (from some of the same authors who originated the CIE TC 1-62 paper)
    may have missed the eyes' reaction to different levels of lighting.

    Although noonday sunny daylight might be held as the ideal lighting - our eyes do not see that as "white" under all lighting levels - at lower lighting levels most people actually will persist in seeing 2700degK as "white" (please see the Kruithof curve for an explanation)

    One should read this paper:

    The Color of White

    paper published by the WAAC - Western Association for Art Conservation -
    specifically on illumination for displaying art/paintings -
    their findings fit well in the Kruithof curve.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Archie Cruz View Post
    Much of these new 'findings' and demand for a revamped metric for rating visually pleasing CRI/Colro Temp was pretty much confirmed by research done by the 'quack' Aten Imago, a former CPF member.
    Here's the original article Presented to the IEEE, LRI Fully digested by HarryN
    --
    Theory & Method of LED Color Blending For Enhanced Nocturnal
    (Scotopic & Mesotopic) Subject Rendering

    Authors:

    Äten Imägo
    Imägo Metrics - Bethesda, MD - USA

    M.P.El-Darwish
    Hi Archie, thanks for including the info.

    Aten's presentation and book are more or less a rehash of what was well known and widely published in the 5 years prior. I don't fault him for that, as it happens commonly at many technical conferences.

    What I do credit him and Andrew for is taking the effort to really build a light to test the work with real life parts.

    More or less, they pointed out the obvious - the phase diagram we all use to "trick our eyes into seeing a color using mixing" only tricks it some of the time. A house is not complete by just putting up the frame and exterior, and lighting is not complete by just throwing up 2 or 3 colors into a phase diagram.

    The challenge that they faced then in actually using the technique still exists today - no one makes an LED in the desired wavelength that they qualitatively described as "straw" color.

    The reason is that most Red and amber leds are made using AlInGaP technology, which is great for red, and just barely works for amber. For blue and green, the common technology uses InGaN, which just barely works down to a yellow green. This means there is not a commercially viable way to make yellow directly.

    The solution is now getting closer with the intro of Lumileds "amber" made from phos converted blue. This means that making "yellow" in a similar approach is no longer a technical problem, just a market size question.
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    The present color rendering system gives a poor rating for white LEDs yet the color appearance of white LEDs is better than color rendering index would suggest.
    I have two really good opinions on this.

    First, comparative CRI light sources like fluorescent tubes have horridly spikey spectrums. Cool White LEDs spike on blue, but are fairly smooth after that. Low CRI fluorescent tubes however have multiple spikes and valleys which tend to bother our eyes. Hence why cool-white LEDs (good ones in low CCT bins) appear to have better color rendition than their published CRI would indicate.

    Next, the current CRI standard is near useless, as evidenced by the fact Philips is claiming it gets 98 CRI from a rather cheap fluorescent tube. If the sun is a 100 CRI.....whatever.

    Regardless of how cool-white LEDs might be considered better than other mediocre CRI light sources, I still consider them totally inadequate for interior lighting.

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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownVT View Post
    Although noonday sunny daylight might be held as the ideal lighting - our eyes do not see that as "white" under all lighting levels - at lower lighting levels most people actually will persist in seeing 2700degK as "white" (please see the Kruithof curve for an explanation)
    I've always had trouble wrapping my head around this because to me 2700K looks distinctly yellow and horrid regardless of lighting level. I could be in a room for hours but not acclimate enough so that 2700K appears white. I recently made a reading light so I can read in bed using 5 SSC high-CRI neutral whites. While the color rendering is great, to me the tint still looks more yellow than I'd like, and this is 4000K. Personally, I need to get to around 5000K before a light looks white to me, regardless of color level.

    A good white LED rates about CRI=70 and not much higher - and since there is a huge push to use LEDs for general lighting and a CRI=70 is very poor -
    one might suspect that the CIE (an accredited international body on illumination) proposal to use visual assessment for CRI of white LEDs might just be yielding a little to the pressure to use white LEDs for general lighting?
    eg: we might find that a white LED formerly rated at CRI=70 all of a sudden under the new CRI measurement guidelines rate in the 80's?
    Not at all true that cool white LEDs only have a CRI of 70. One of the pdfs you linked to had a blue plus phosphor LED rated at 80. Actually, high 70s to 80 seems to be where most phosphor whites fall, provided the CCT is reasonable ( i.e. 5000K to 6500K ). The 8000K to 10000K ones are those which might have a CRI of 70, but no sane person would consider using them for general lighting. Subjectively, cool white LED always seems better than most fluorescent of similar CRI, likely because the spectrum is more or less continuous. This is telling me we need a new measurement of color quality simply because what our eyes are telling us is way different from what the CRI says. Right now I'm lighting my bedroom with some LED screw-base lamps I had received for testing. One was retrofitted with cool-white Rebels, another with Cree XP-Gs. The 6500K CCT seems just fine, and a lot more bearably than a 6500K CFL. Truth is, I probably wouldn't want much lower CCT using LEDs even though I lean towards 5000K fluorescents. The LEDs seem more natural than the CCT and CRI numbers might indicate.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    I am no expert on CRI and I can only hope not to make false or misleading comments regarding CRI. The following comments are what I have gleaned and believe to be true; corrections are welcome.

    When a CRI number is given or stated it is a number for the CRIa which is an average of a dozen or so CRI indexes measured at specific spectral positions. It is also based on a specific CCT. In simple terms, CRI is used to evaluate how well an artificial light source renders colors compared to a black body source of light at the same CCT. An incandescent source is essentially the standard against which other sources are compared.

    I am in the camp of folks who believe that sunlight should be the standard against which other lights sources are measured and although direct sunlight may have a spectral distribution of a black body source of a specific CCT, indirect sunlight often does not.

    I think there are specific spectral areas of output from the various artificial sources of light that can be identified as the problem areas. These would be the regions in the spectrum where a source either has excess or limited output, relative to the whole. If some single color rendering index number is to be used as a measure of a lights ability to render color in general then it might be more illuminating to base this average on the problem indexes and not dilute it by averaging in other indexes which are typically adequate. In other words, a white LED for instance might be measured in its ability to render blue and red and green (in the spectral bands where we see the peaks and troughs).

    One white LED may have a CRI of 87 and another of 94. The immediate assumption is that the LED having a CRI of 94 is a better source for color rendition. Well what if the one having CRI of 94 has a CCT of 2200 and the one with CRI of 87 is at a CCT of 5000. What if the one with CRI of 87 has all of its index numbers being 87 where as the one with a CRI of 94 has some indexes at 99 and a couple in the low 80's? I personally would prefer the LED having the CRI of 87 in this example and this preference is based on presumed color rendering even though it doesn't score as high as the other LED. But it is a personal preference.

    Color rendering can be a very significant aspect in artificial illumination and being somehow able to quantify a light sources ability to render color certainly has merit. I would think that if a standard is to be established then this standard should be as ideal as possible and widely accepted as a standard. I would also suspect that CCT should be integral and not set aside as a qualifier but perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps some measure of significant deviation from such a standard would tell us more than the present CRIa index.

    In fixed lighting, the subject of illumination and its reflective nature is just as important as the source of illumination and the source should be selected with this in mind. In portable illumination, the nature of the subject may or may not be known in advance and this can be significant if choices in the illumination device are available. To what ever extent a measure or index of color rendering can aid us in making the best choice for the illumination task at hand such a measure or index has merit.
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    While the color rendering is great, to me the tint still looks more yellow than I'd like, and this is 4000K
    Ditto on better cool white LEDs being superior than cheap 'daylight' CFLs.

    One thing I've noticed with commercial quality 4100k T8 tubes of good subjective color is they cheat a little and have just a smudge of pink in them. However, light sources that claim to be neutral and have a bit of yellow or green in them tend not to look as good, even though the CRI and even CCT might be identical. This is especially true of neutral white LEDs where even a slight variation to the yellow or green side causes complaints.

    I've noticed that my latest batches of Bridgelux LEDs aren't nearly as warm as prior ones, likely in an attempt to get efficiency up. However, the character is distinctly 'rosy' more than yellow, and this is certainly by intent given their focus on commercial use.

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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Has anyone tried to bulild a multi-LED flashlight that would give extactly the same spectrum as an incan? I mean putting a few high-CRI LEDs inside to act as a main light source and supplement them by a few auxilaty LEDs which could fill the gap in the spectrum (like a red LED) or make the spectral curve more smooth. This would probably require not only boosting the red frequencies but also absorbing some blues, but we could provide an optic to each led and paint some of the lens with a glass paint a bit, to filter out what is not needed.

    With some luck, maybe even a quad P60 dropin would do the job? The main problem would probably be the driver, because if we would like to have 3 or 5 modes, those different colored LEDs should probably be powered in non-linear way (related to each other) in order to keep the spectral curve the same and only change the brightness, not the frequency distribution.

    I am not sure if I can describe this in english clear enough, but I hope it is more or less understandable what I mean

  17. #17
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Built, no, but the idea has been presented: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=268711


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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Archie Cruz View Post
    Much of these new 'findings' and demand for a revamped metric for rating visually pleasing CRI/Colro Temp was pretty much confirmed by research done by the 'quack' Aten Imago, a former CPF member.
    Is that disassociative identity disorder kicking in again, Aten? Don't play people for fools here. You've been allowed to post and be part of this community again because you have refrained from your old assinine ways. I suggest you get yourself back under the radar...

  19. #19

    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    I recently added onto my house, and lit it with Cree LR6C recessed lights. They consist of several white LEDs, a number of red ones, and I believe a few yellow ones as well to get a CRI of 90. (The LR6 is "warm white" 2700K and the LR6C is "bright white" 3500K -- both are 90 CRI.) The thing that sold me is that the light includes a color sensor and feedback system to keep the color constant by automatically adjusting the colored LEDs as necessary. Without this feedback system, the color would change with time as LEDs age at different rates. I like the color (and efficiency -- the light output of a 60 watt incandescent for about 10 watts), although when compared to CFL, the lights look a bit on the purplish side. In various other places in the house I have some cool white fluorescent tubes and warm and bright CFLs, and get some really interesting effects going from one environment to another, or looking from one lit area into another. For example, the cool white fluorescents look greenish when viewed from an area lit with the LED lights, and yellow walls in the LED lit area look peach colored when viewed from the fluorescent lit area. A new bathroom has the LED lights, and I still have CFL just outside. Looking from the bathroom, the floor seems to change color at the point where the incident light changes.

    The problem is, of course, that all the spectra are different, even when light types have identical color temperature and CRI ratings. And that will inevitably lead to different color renditions and different light color appearances. All equal-temperature heated filaments have very nearly the same spectrum, so defining a spectrum required only the single number of color temperature. With the variety of spectral shapes we get from the various types of lights and phosphors, it's now much more complicated.

    I had another thought that further illustrates a shortcoming of CRI as a defining parameter -- Do you have an incandescent light hooked to a dimmer? Turn the dimmer all the way up. The full brightness incandescent light has a CRI of 100. Now turn the dimmer down until the lights are reddish. What's the CRI now? Answer: 100. How about when they're turned down to make a dim, really red light? Still 100. So in what way is that really red light with a CRI of 100 better than an LED with CRI of 70? Which would you prefer to light things up with? Which do you think shows colors more accurately?

    c_c

  20. #20

    Arrow Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Curious_character View Post
    and get some really interesting effects going from one environment to another, or looking from one lit area into another. For example, the cool white fluorescents look greenish when viewed from an area lit with the LED lights, and yellow walls in the LED lit area look peach colored when viewed from the fluorescent lit area. A new bathroom has the LED lights, and I still have CFL just outside. Looking from the bathroom, the floor seems to change color at the point where the incident light changes.

    I had another thought that further illustrates a shortcoming of CRI as a defining parameter -- Do you have an incandescent light hooked to a dimmer? Turn the dimmer all the way up. The full brightness incandescent light has a CRI of 100. Now turn the dimmer down until the lights are reddish. What's the CRI now? Answer: 100. How about when they're turned down to make a dim, really red light? Still 100. So in what way is that really red light with a CRI of 100 better than an LED with CRI of 70? Which would you prefer to light things up with? Which do you think shows colors more accurately?
    Interesting input.
    I think our eyes tend to be able to distinguish differences well -
    whereas without anything to compare to,
    I think our eyes/brain adapt to "accept" or optimize to that ambient lighting.

    CRI is mostly misunderstood - and because it is quantitative - ie: there is a hard figure attach to it - many people just take it as some kind of gospel - ie: CRI=100 has to reproduce colors more accurately than CRI=82.

    Of course without the corresponding CCT (color temperature) this is kind of meaningless. Just to cite the same example already given -
    an ordinary tungsten household bulb is rated CRI=100 by definition - yet most of us know that we have a really hard time being able to see yellow on white or distinguishing navy from black.
    Whereas even a cheapo daylight 6500K CFL with a CRI=82 does not have that problem.

    However that says nothing about which is more pleasant to the eye -
    at lower levels of illumination the daylight 6500K CFL would look too cool-blue and probably pretty unpleasant - whereas 2700K tungsten (or even CFL) actually looks quite nice - since our eyes/brain are conditioned through both physiology and evolution to see well under that color temperature.

    So CRI is absolutely linked with the color temperature.

    BUT even color temperature may be misunderstood - we almost always assume that color temperature is on the Planckian locus - ie: that of a radiating blackbody. BUT what happens when the light source falls off that locus?

    Classic example is "white" light that's made up of just yellow and blue LEDs - its spectrum is obviously mainly the two peaks in yellow and blue - but to out eyes that light is "white" - it is only when we look at specific colors that we realize there is something amiss. This also applies to using RGB LEDs to make white - with spectrum of Red Green and Blue peaks - the light again does look "white" but specific colors may have some difficulties.

    These may seem extreme examples but this is one area where CRI becomes very applicable - as "white" that is daylight has CRI=100, yellow/blue LEDs would have a very low CRI and similarly RGB LEDs would not have a good CRI either. (for real practical RGB application and some difficulties please see: LED Stage lighting )

    This also shows that CRI is not any real indication of how pleasant a light source is to our eyes.

    Our eyes/brain does adapt to different light levels -
    that is why I questioned the newer recommended visual assessment of CRI as used in
    pdf VISUAL OBSERVATION OF COLOUR RENDERING
    from Colour and Multimedia Laboratory of the University of Veszprém, Hungary
    (by some of the same authors of the CIE TC 1-62 paper that recommends the newer visual assessment for CRI or white LEDs)
    They were surprised to find that the "cool white" lighting at 4000K did well -
    because of that I am not sure if they have taken into account the human eye/brain behavior that follows the Kruithof curve -
    the illumination level and the surroundings are important - otherwise the results depending on human observation/comparison would vary wildly depending on the environment and surrounding ambient lighting -
    eg: experiment illuminated at 10,000lux, 1,000lux and 100lux would yield very different results -
    also conducted during daylight hours in a natural daylight lit lab vs one held in the dark, or under tungsten lighting......
    there are just too many variables, and I am not too sure if the eye/brain behavior has been rigorously taken into account, to have any new CRI measurements, based on human visual assessment, to be truly meaningful

    I very strongly suggest please reading these two links:

    The Color of White

    and

    Kruithof curve

  21. #21
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Less discussed, but equally important in our perception of which "white light" is most pleasing, are our genetics.

    If you compare a picture taken with traditional Kodak vs Fuji film, it jumps right out at you how virtually impossible it is to find one solution for everyone.
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  22. #22

    Arrow Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryN View Post
    Less discussed, but equally important in our perception of which "white light" is most pleasing, are our genetics.
    It's not just genetics but personal preference and where we come from and our "conditioning".

    Not everyone will conform to the norm although the Kruithof curve is empirical -
    ie: can be confirmed and reproduced by experiment -
    individuals can have different results - eg: jtr1962 above from this thread.

    This can make any visually based assessment of CRI kind of suspect -
    eg: what happens if it's a panel of LED marketing people?
    or people who may be color blind?

    Where's the proposed standard for controls and controlled testing and even a mere mention of eye/brain adjustments to different lighting levels and environments?

  23. #23

    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    As UnknownVT and others have pointed out, a lot of the problem is due to the way our brain processes visual input. We internally declare any of a wide range of spectra to be "white" after being exposed to them for even a fairly short period. I first became aware of this a long time ago when we had chosen a very slightly off-white color to paint a room -- the paint mixer added just one glurp of green to a can of white. I was painting in a ceiling corner, where I was surrounded by the color. After some time, I stepped down, turned around -- and everything except the wall had a distinct pinkish hue. My brain had decided that the wall was "white", so everything else was pinkish. This is happening to me a lot now with the various lights in my house.

    If you shine a white (say, hot incandescent) light through an object, say a thin piece of fabric, the object absorbs some wavelengths more than others, resulting in what we perceive as colored light. The spectrum that gets through probably has a bunch of lines of various wavelengths and intensities, and ranges of wavelengths where there isn't much being reflected. As it turns out, you can make a light consisting of just three spectral lines and, by adjusting only their amplitudes, have it look like exactly the same color as the complex spectrum from the filtered white light. The spectra are very, very different, yet they look just the same to us. This is, of course, the basis of color television, which produces nearly any color by combining just three. (As I recall from long ago, you can't quite imitate all possible colors, but you can get very nearly all by careful choice of your three primary colors. It seems our eyes and brains can be fooled pretty easily.

    The problem is that if you shine the two apparently identically colored lights on something of another color, you'll get different results. If, for example the three-color light is made of pure red, green, and blue, and the object reflects none of those exact wavelengths, it'll look black. The filtered light might contain some of the wavelengths the object reflects, so the object will be some color and not black. This happens with "white" lights, particularly so with fluorescents which tend to have spectra consisting of a number of discrete lines rather than a more continuous, filled-in spectrum. And that's why an RGB LED light might look white (or any other color we want by adjusting the three LED intensities) but won't render colors anything like a heated filament (black body) light.

    c_c

  24. #24
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    I just made a comment in another thread about production LED headlamps not being suitable for surgery.

    I don't own any high CRI LED lights, but I do own some 'neutral' and 'warm' LED lights and none of them will show the distinction of redness on human tissue, such as a sore throat or an infection that I had on my shin.

    They seem to do fine for me to distinguish colors in other applications, but not tissue. Can one of you gurus explain the reason to me, but so that I can understand it?

    I seem to remember that Don put out a few specialty high CRI lights and Baby Doc was a tester who reported that the light worked well for him in medical applications. I had the impression that this was the springboard for the current demand for these higher rendering LEDs.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by kitelights View Post
    I just made a comment in another thread about production LED headlamps not being suitable for surgery.

    I don't own any high CRI LED lights, but I do own some 'neutral' and 'warm' LED lights and none of them will show the distinction of redness on human tissue, such as a sore throat or an infection that I had on my shin.

    They seem to do fine for me to distinguish colors in other applications, but not tissue. Can one of you gurus explain the reason to me, but so that I can understand it?

    I seem to remember that Don put out a few specialty high CRI lights and Baby Doc was a tester who reported that the light worked well for him in medical applications. I had the impression that this was the springboard for the current demand for these higher rendering LEDs.
    The reason has to do with the phosphors used. "Regular" neutral and warm non-high CRI LEDs simply have a higher ratio of phosphor to primary blue emitter output. This alters the color balance so that our eye perceives the light as warmer, but doesn't add much on the far red end. The relative size of the phosphor hump is higher, so there is a little more deep red there, but no much more than cool whites. Incidentally, triphosphor fluorescents use the same trick, simply altering the ratios among the red, green, and blue phosphors to achieve the desired color temperature. End result is that low color temperature triphosphor fluorescents are lacking in red relative to a blackbody emitter.

    High-CRI LEDs are a different animal. They use an entirely different phosphor which has a lot more output in the deep red area ( at the expense of efficiency ). Although the light color on a white wall might appear the same as a non-high CRI LED of the same color temperature, the spectrum is much closer to that of a blackbody. When I shine one of my lights modded with a SSC high-CRI neutral white emitter outdoors in the backyard, it's like night and day compared to the cool whites. Indoors the difference isn't as great ( I still prefer cool-white indoors ) but outdoors among grass and trees the high-CRI light gives three dimensions to whatever you're lighting. That was the inspiration which led me to make a reading light using 5 of these high-CRI neutral white SSC LEDs ( my only complaint is I wish the color balance was closer to 5000K-5500K ). They should do just as well lighting human tissue. Also, from what I understand the Nichia 083 is slightly better than the SSC high-CRI, although it is a bit harder to obtain.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Kitelights,
    Consider this graphic representation of Nichia's regarding CRI:





    Specifically consider R6 thru R10 and R12. R9 is probably the most significant when it comes to typical white LED's and to what extent is the CRI R9 effected by the CCT's offered in white LED's?

    I would guess that R12 sucks for LED's compared to the incandescent "standard" established by incandescent (black body) for two reasons. Black body sources are not relatively strong in the low wave lengths and LED's are overly so. My gut tells me that indirect sunlight can not match the CRI-12 of an incandescent source; especially if there is plenty of blue sky above.
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  27. #27

    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    If you compare a picture taken with traditional Kodak vs Fuji film,
    Fuji dye coupling technology allows for a longer saturation ramp with a more density via more sloped integral resulting in more saturated colors without blocking. The sacrifice is density range. Kodak films are just the opposite in that they have very linear saturation ramps and high degrees of density, but poor saturation handling, aka color blocking. Take a picture of something very red or orange with a classic Kodak slide (or print) film and it will appear one solid shade of color. This is a big reason Velvia practically destroyed Kodak's entire slide division by itself. So, there is a measurable difference in Fuji emulsions -vs- Kodak, although Kodak has done much better to fix this problem (for those who still shoot film).

    I actually ran into an interesting requirement that proved that cold-white, or simply older tech emitters weren't good enough to distinguish colors correctly. That application was building custom LED light-bars in a very busy night club where drinks are set and the LEDs are primary source of color. The problem is that because of the lack of decent red and amber cool white LEDs, or older Luxeons simply couldn't distinguish certain types of whiskeys or beers. They all looked the same in the window, and this really caused some issues.

    I experimented with half a dozen types of neutral and warm white emitters to fix the problem, and was about to resort to using high CRI Seouls when I stumbled on some older 1watt warm-white Cree P3s with that distinct 'rose' hue, and they do an amazing job on distinguishing drinks from each other. The difference is actually rather dramatic. I've not found this tint in newer Crees, but newer Bridgelux warm-whites are close.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownVT View Post
    It's not just genetics but personal preference and where we come from and our "conditioning".

    Not everyone will conform to the norm although the Kruithof curve is empirical -
    ie: can be confirmed and reproduced by experiment -
    individuals can have different results - eg: jtr1962 above from this thread.

    This can make any visually based assessment of CRI kind of suspect -
    eg: what happens if it's a panel of LED marketing people?
    or people who may be color blind?

    Where's the proposed standard for controls and controlled testing and even a mere mention of eye/brain adjustments to different lighting levels and environments?
    Indeed differing preferences is one important thing that seems to be often missed. It always irks me when people say 'cool white' is 'unnatural' as I don't consider there's strong evidence for this. Obviously it's questionable whether incandescent light bulbs, or even camp fires etc can be considered 'natural'. The most 'natural' thing is very little light at night so the ideal colour temperatures of relatively bright lights at night doesn't seem something you can necessarily get from the patterns of the sun. (Of course I dislike many common uses of the word 'natural' anyway.) Perhaps we've been dealing with camp fires for long enough that we've evolved to prefer that sort of light, perhaps not, ultimately without good evidence it's still primarily theoretical. In any case, modern lighting is a lot brighter then that.

    The circadian rhythm issue is perhaps one of the few interesting things I've read whenever this 'natural' light idea comes up. However light which is good for your circadian rhythms (and that may very well be no artifical light source, i.e. just the sun during daylight hours and at night moon if present and stars) may not necessarily be light you prefer. The other thing which interests me is the rods & cones issue but it too appears to be primarily theoretically.

    And as for the anecdotal evidence and studies, and here I get to what I began with. Although I've never found a great ref (http://www.archlighting.com/industry...ticleID=460610 is one of the best I've found) I personally believe (and do have some personal knowledge here coming from Malaysia originally) it's generally accepted that colour temperature preferences in parts of Asia, what parts is one of the things that I've never really read studies of but I suspect most of SEA and East Asia at least, differs from that of much of the West. In particular cooler whites are usually preferred there. Most of the anecdotal evidence and studies are primarily coming from Western cultures (the museums ones I've seen mentioned have been in the west and while I haven't looked at the studies from what I've read it doesn't seem like it was possible for them to try and determine if there was specific difference in visitors from some places and in any case a visitor to a foreign visitors and in any case a tourist's preference may vary from an average person from those places anyway.)

    So the question becomes, why is this? While this could be genetic, getting back to my early points I don't think there's sufficient evidence that we can say any of the preferences are strongly genetic or innate. They could very well all be primarily cultural. In fact in some ways it reminds me of the way some people argue a female preference for pink is probably innate because it appears so widespread despite the fact we have some evidence it wasn't even always the case and pink may have actually been a masculine colour 80 years or so ago.

    While I admit I haven't really looked into the research available that well, it seems to me there is plenty of obvious areas of research here. I've already mentioned that it doesn't even seem to have been well studied how the colour temperature preference vary from country to country but another obvious study would be comparing people of different ancestoral groupings in the same country (since some argue there's a genetic component).

    P.S. Just for clarity, I have no problem with someone saying something seems unnatural to them. Obviously people are entilted to their individual preference. What I is the idea that cooler whites lights are in some ways inherently 'unnatural' or at least more so then warmer light ones.

  29. #29
    *Flashaholic* McGizmo's Avatar
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    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    I think there is strong evidence for subjective and cultural preference in regards to color temperature and even color itself. In previous threads on these and related subjects it was mentioned that as we age, our eyes respond differently and even get yellowed. It was suggested that some of us older folks would be inclined to prefer a cooler CCT as we inherently warm the light as it is filtered through our eye's lenses.

    Another aspect of the subjectivity I think has substance is that of the terms of warm and cool light and how they relate to our present environment. In tropical and warm climates I find it no surprise that a cool CCT might be preferred and in the higher latitudes or in winter, a warmer CCT would have preference.

    If you are freezing your heinie off and look in one direction and see a cool moon reflected off the snow and in another direction a warm fire reflecting off the snow, which will draw you to it?

    On the other hand, if you are in sweltering in a humid tropic evening and see a cool moon reflecting off a lake or ocean and in another direction see a cooking fire's warm light, which would draw you near in hopes of perhaps some welcome relief?

    In temperate zones where one is neither cold or hot, I suspect one would be most indifferent to the CCT of light.

    We have evolved to use ambient light in order to see and perceive. We have also used fire at night to see as well as cook (at anytime of day). We have learned and adapted with light as a significant part in our ability to perceive and function. There are likely inherrent biases and instinctual responses based on visual clues and perceptions and how they relate to light sources as well as time of day.

    One thought I just had would be of primitive man, our ancestor, sound asleep under the stars. If all of a sudden his eyelids were bathed in a bright cool light this would be from a rising full moon and not likely to cause alarm or necessarily wake him. On the other hand, if all of a sudden his eyelids were bathed in a bright warm light, either day break has caught him by surprise or worse, a fire is present. In either case, it would make sense that this light would initiate a waking process.

    The significance of color rendering is a function primarily of the need to identify and differentiate among objects and landscapes based on their color. In some cases this may be critical and others of no import. Our eyes have evolved based on natural light which is for the most part based on a full spectrum as represented by a black body source. It would be curious to know if primitive man shared the same visual spectrum as we do now or if perhaps he was more perceptive to say the IR end or even the near UV. I wonder if the proportion of rods and cones or their predominance has changed any over our history or if there are differences among genetic backgrounds. The need for glasses for instance does not seem to be consistent among contemporary races or perhaps that is a false perception on my part?!? Is there a "universal eyeball" that would make sense as a base and is there a universal, optimal, artificial light source? I kind of doubt it.

    Regardless, we are no longer limited to only black body sources and to what ever extent they may fall short of an ideal, we may now be able to improve and enhance our visual perceptions.
    Build Prices .... some mods and builds (not 4 sale) "Nature can be cruel- but we don't have to be."~ Temple Grandin

  30. #30

    Default Re: CRI of White LEDs

    Obviously people are entilted to their individual preference
    'Preference' is fine, provided were talking about light sources with similiar CRI indexes.

    What I have a problem with is people pulling the 'preference arguement' and then justifying cool-white emitters simply because they have a technology fetish with LEDs.

    Low CRI, cool-white emitters might be better than cheap daylight CFLs, but they are still the 'fast food' of lighting technology. Basically, over-marketed, over-convenient, and just pimped on the public because they are in too much of a hurry to really stop and look at the difference.

    The difference in color rendition and livability of Cree cool-white R2s -vs- drastically less efficient warm-white Bridgelux in my living room is drastic. I honestly don't care if the Crees are 2x as efficient. The color sucks, and is devoid of entire bands of spectrum our visual cortex spent millions of years evolving to see. This is the type of light thats good for the laundry room, or a porch light, or a college kid in his dorm spending 99% of his time on a computer.

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