JimmyM
Flashlight Enthusiast
I've started this thread to discuss the software being used to design and build PCBs used in various projects.
Schematic and PCB Design software
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
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Popsiclestix
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2010
- Messages
- 136
I used PCB Artist back in college to make an MP3 player. I'm sure there's better commercial tools but it was the only good one I could find that fit my needs.
JimmyM
Flashlight Enthusiast
I've been using PCB Artist for the design of my regulators. But I'd like to start using Eagle. My goal is to become proficient enough to justify a license that will allow me to continue to use 4 layer designs.
Advanced circuits does great work and their customer service is great, but Eagle will output Gerber files that will allow me more flexibility in PCB fab shops.
Advanced circuits does great work and their customer service is great, but Eagle will output Gerber files that will allow me more flexibility in PCB fab shops.
Th232
Flashlight Enthusiast
Eagle all the way for me. A few quirks, but very good once you get used to them.
JimmyM
Flashlight Enthusiast
Alright. An "Eagle man". Were there any tutorials or sites that you found useful?
What quirks in particular?
wquiles
Flashaholic
Jimmy, thanks much for starting a new thread on this subject 
I tried the programs that Jimmy and Alan used, but the more I read and searched on the subject the more it became clear (to me) that Eagle was the more versatile hobyist CAD program, and with the most tutorials, support groups/forums, examples, etc.. Even though the learning curve is a little bit steeper with Eagle, hands down it was the right package to learn/use.
Main page for Eagle (up to version 5.9 now as I write this):
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/
Some quick notes:
- For pure hobby work, your personal use, never to sell, the Non-Profit (Freeware) version of Eagle light is perfect for 2 layers and 100x80mm (4x3.2 inches) routing area.
- For the projects that Jimmy, Alan, and now me have with the incandescent drivers that we are selling, we "have" to use the Eagle Light version that is $49 for the single license. Same limitations as the Freeware version, but this one allows you to legally sell your work. I should note that currently that is the version/license that I have.
- To jump to the more flexible 4-layer capability, and larger (160x100mm) routing area, is unfortunately a very significant price jump - $498 for the Layout and Schematic package. This is the package/license that I would "like" to have.
Pricing/options can be found here:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/prices.htm
Whatever you buy/get, forget the autorouter. For most projects it just gets in the way and it is not that optimal anyway, most specially if you have analog circuitry. It probably be OK for digital circuits, but even then I would say that you should learn to route your own signals anyway. Just my own 2 cents.
In terms of tutorials, and how to get started, there are PLENTY of resources in the Internet. Google for Eagle tutorial and you will find enough to satisfy your needs. After much searching, my favorite is Sparkfun Electronics with their tutorials, even one "specifically" on how to get started on Eagle, that goes all the way to even doing the Gerber files to the fab house. Here is the specific one on learning Eagle:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=108
One of the best things about Eagle and Sparkfun is that they have already pre-defined a LARGE and substancial database of parts, packages, etc.. I can't emphasize enough how freaking valuable and useful this is - a MUST have in my humble opinion:
http://www.opencircuits.com/SFE_Footprint_Library_Eagle
Not only to the provide the library (by the way all of this stuff is for FREE!), but they also have a set of design/routing/default guidelines that make using Eagle easier by setting up Eagle the "Sparkfun" way, which makes doing any/all of their projects a cinch:
Eagle shortcuts
Eagle CAM file
The other useful guide (I found) was the actual Eagle Guided Tour through Eagle (link below) although I found even more useful to download the PDF version and have it open side-by-side along with Eagle (running) so that you can follow/do in Eagle while you look/follow the PDF. Here is the link for the Web-based Tour:
http://www.cadsoft.de/Tour/tour01.htm
I am now an Eagle user for good:
I tried the programs that Jimmy and Alan used, but the more I read and searched on the subject the more it became clear (to me) that Eagle was the more versatile hobyist CAD program, and with the most tutorials, support groups/forums, examples, etc.. Even though the learning curve is a little bit steeper with Eagle, hands down it was the right package to learn/use.
Main page for Eagle (up to version 5.9 now as I write this):
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/
Some quick notes:
- For pure hobby work, your personal use, never to sell, the Non-Profit (Freeware) version of Eagle light is perfect for 2 layers and 100x80mm (4x3.2 inches) routing area.
- For the projects that Jimmy, Alan, and now me have with the incandescent drivers that we are selling, we "have" to use the Eagle Light version that is $49 for the single license. Same limitations as the Freeware version, but this one allows you to legally sell your work. I should note that currently that is the version/license that I have.
- To jump to the more flexible 4-layer capability, and larger (160x100mm) routing area, is unfortunately a very significant price jump - $498 for the Layout and Schematic package. This is the package/license that I would "like" to have.
Pricing/options can be found here:
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/prices.htm
Whatever you buy/get, forget the autorouter. For most projects it just gets in the way and it is not that optimal anyway, most specially if you have analog circuitry. It probably be OK for digital circuits, but even then I would say that you should learn to route your own signals anyway. Just my own 2 cents.
In terms of tutorials, and how to get started, there are PLENTY of resources in the Internet. Google for Eagle tutorial and you will find enough to satisfy your needs. After much searching, my favorite is Sparkfun Electronics with their tutorials, even one "specifically" on how to get started on Eagle, that goes all the way to even doing the Gerber files to the fab house. Here is the specific one on learning Eagle:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=108
One of the best things about Eagle and Sparkfun is that they have already pre-defined a LARGE and substancial database of parts, packages, etc.. I can't emphasize enough how freaking valuable and useful this is - a MUST have in my humble opinion:
http://www.opencircuits.com/SFE_Footprint_Library_Eagle
Not only to the provide the library (by the way all of this stuff is for FREE!), but they also have a set of design/routing/default guidelines that make using Eagle easier by setting up Eagle the "Sparkfun" way, which makes doing any/all of their projects a cinch:
Eagle shortcuts
Eagle CAM file
The other useful guide (I found) was the actual Eagle Guided Tour through Eagle (link below) although I found even more useful to download the PDF version and have it open side-by-side along with Eagle (running) so that you can follow/do in Eagle while you look/follow the PDF. Here is the link for the Web-based Tour:
http://www.cadsoft.de/Tour/tour01.htm
I am now an Eagle user for good:
Alan B
Flashlight Enthusiast
I've been using expresspcb.com for many years. They offer free graphical schematic and pcb layout software that is really a snap to learn, and some very good pricing on certain boards. I generally use their MiniBoard which is 3.8 by 2.5 inches and 2 or 4 layers with plated through holes. It is quick (a few days), cheap ($51 for 3 each of the 2 layer MiniBoards) and made in USA. Their turnaround is really quick, especially compared to the low cost offshore places.
For most small projects I fit several of them onto the MiniBoard and get 3 boards full, so good for a small run. (All 3 boards must be the same, so you get three of whatever your layout is). Then I cut them apart.
In production quantities their prices are okay but you can do better. They have an online price estimator so you can figure it out. The downside of this free software is that it just feeds the files to them (not standard Gerber files). However you can get the Gerber files back from them for a fee. I have not done that so I don't know what the cost is.
So for most folks who want to build a few boards and not spend a long time learning a complex program it is a great option.
I looked at and tested Eagle at one point. The learning curve is significantly greater, and the software is clearly an old Unix program that has a graphical layer added on. It is not for the occasional user.
The licensing costs can be quite high and are tricky, as Will mentioned above. Review that carefully before committing the value of your time to this package.
That said, Eagle is perhaps the best choice for those who are above hobbyist but below full pc design professionals. As I understand it, most professionals use other packages, Eagle fits into the range in between.
So I plan to learn Eagle and this thread is a good starting point. Glad to see the discussion.
For those really on a budget, many use the free expresspcb.com software and print the result on a laser printer, and then iron it onto a bare board and etch it at home. The real hobbyist technique.
So there is a whole range to choose from.
Now back to the Eagle tutorial!
For most small projects I fit several of them onto the MiniBoard and get 3 boards full, so good for a small run. (All 3 boards must be the same, so you get three of whatever your layout is). Then I cut them apart.
In production quantities their prices are okay but you can do better. They have an online price estimator so you can figure it out. The downside of this free software is that it just feeds the files to them (not standard Gerber files). However you can get the Gerber files back from them for a fee. I have not done that so I don't know what the cost is.
So for most folks who want to build a few boards and not spend a long time learning a complex program it is a great option.
I looked at and tested Eagle at one point. The learning curve is significantly greater, and the software is clearly an old Unix program that has a graphical layer added on. It is not for the occasional user.
The licensing costs can be quite high and are tricky, as Will mentioned above. Review that carefully before committing the value of your time to this package.
That said, Eagle is perhaps the best choice for those who are above hobbyist but below full pc design professionals. As I understand it, most professionals use other packages, Eagle fits into the range in between.
So I plan to learn Eagle and this thread is a good starting point. Glad to see the discussion.
For those really on a budget, many use the free expresspcb.com software and print the result on a laser printer, and then iron it onto a bare board and etch it at home. The real hobbyist technique.
So there is a whole range to choose from.
Now back to the Eagle tutorial!
BillyNoMates
Newly Enlightened
I'm an Eagle user as well.
So far I've used PCBPool to have my boards fabricated and they give you a free license for fully functional version Target once you are a returning customer. The only restriction is that the output is PCBPool Specific. However, I didn't like the feel of it (I can be quite impatient sometimes) so I went back to the freeware version of eagle. So far I've only needed double-sided boards so it has been more than adequate.
I have used other tools in the past, but I found eagle easy to pick up. I just used their tutorial and the help menu is quite useful as well. I do like the ability to write scripts for repetitive placements and routing (ie placing multiple versions of the same circuit in a particular pattern).
So far I've used PCBPool to have my boards fabricated and they give you a free license for fully functional version Target once you are a returning customer. The only restriction is that the output is PCBPool Specific. However, I didn't like the feel of it (I can be quite impatient sometimes) so I went back to the freeware version of eagle. So far I've only needed double-sided boards so it has been more than adequate.
I have used other tools in the past, but I found eagle easy to pick up. I just used their tutorial and the help menu is quite useful as well. I do like the ability to write scripts for repetitive placements and routing (ie placing multiple versions of the same circuit in a particular pattern).
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HarryN
Flashlight Enthusiast
I have attempted to use eagle. (no training ). Actually, just tried to modify a circuit that Billynomates schetched out for me. (thanks BTW) Frankly, it reminded me of those programs written in DOS that were just ported over to use in windows with no real attempt to improve the interface and use a mouse.
I found it to be incredibly frustrating, but then again, it could just be the end user. :shrug:
I finally hired an EE that uses PADS. While it is quite powerful, it is clear that it is also not for the faint of heart. One thing that I liked better though, is that you weren't playing this "dual designs" - schematic vs layout" BS that eagle puts you through.
I had expected the libraries of parts to be useful as well, but since it is all just SMT work, it actually didn't matter. He could generate a part file faster than the search. The EE I hired did in 2 days what I had struggled with for months, and I got free advise along the way, so my interest in learning a new s/w has decreased a lot lately. I also met 2 more flashlight LED guys in the process. Both he and I were well prepared going into the process, with parts already pre-selected, and it still took 2 days. (1 day for Rev 0, and another for a simpler board and rev 2 of the first board.)
Generating Gerbers from it was pretty easy.
PADS is way too expensive for anything but very serious EE work. By serious, I mean like 10 layers or more.
I had seriously considering attempting KiCad. The interface seems more modern and intuitive, and it is written for multiple OS use, and is open source. If I were to choose one, it would probaby be this one.
This process really opened up for me the area of PCB milling vs normal board houses and their photo etch process. For serious volumes, the photo etch process is unbeatable, but for hobby use, PCB milling is just wonderful.
I found it to be incredibly frustrating, but then again, it could just be the end user. :shrug:
I finally hired an EE that uses PADS. While it is quite powerful, it is clear that it is also not for the faint of heart. One thing that I liked better though, is that you weren't playing this "dual designs" - schematic vs layout" BS that eagle puts you through.
I had expected the libraries of parts to be useful as well, but since it is all just SMT work, it actually didn't matter. He could generate a part file faster than the search. The EE I hired did in 2 days what I had struggled with for months, and I got free advise along the way, so my interest in learning a new s/w has decreased a lot lately. I also met 2 more flashlight LED guys in the process. Both he and I were well prepared going into the process, with parts already pre-selected, and it still took 2 days. (1 day for Rev 0, and another for a simpler board and rev 2 of the first board.)
Generating Gerbers from it was pretty easy.
PADS is way too expensive for anything but very serious EE work. By serious, I mean like 10 layers or more.
I had seriously considering attempting KiCad. The interface seems more modern and intuitive, and it is written for multiple OS use, and is open source. If I were to choose one, it would probaby be this one.
This process really opened up for me the area of PCB milling vs normal board houses and their photo etch process. For serious volumes, the photo etch process is unbeatable, but for hobby use, PCB milling is just wonderful.
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JimmyM
Flashlight Enthusiast
It seems that PCBPool, Expresspcb, and PCB Artist are all fab house specific tools that you can only use with their respective companies. Like Expresspcb, PCB Artist allows you to get Gerber files back after you've already placed an order. Personally, I love PCB artist and would continue to use it if it had Gerber file output. I bought a paste stencil from Advanced circuits when I ordered my D1 boards. It was $100. A very nice kit, but I can get Mylar stencils for a third of that if I had Gerber files. For "production runs" I'll still probably use Advanced circuits since I like their work. But for smaller projects, I'd like to have options.
I'm going to use the freeware version to learn on and once I get proficient, I'd like to get the $498 Layout and Schematic package. Will is right, the auto-router is not required. PCB Artist has an auto-router, but it's pretty pathetic. I'd rather place my own components and route my own tracks.
To etch my own, I've done the toner transfer method with a laser printer. It pretty good, but I have trouble with double sided boards. For anything beyond single sided, I'd like to just send it out.
I'm going to use the freeware version to learn on and once I get proficient, I'd like to get the $498 Layout and Schematic package. Will is right, the auto-router is not required. PCB Artist has an auto-router, but it's pretty pathetic. I'd rather place my own components and route my own tracks.
To etch my own, I've done the toner transfer method with a laser printer. It pretty good, but I have trouble with double sided boards. For anything beyond single sided, I'd like to just send it out.
JimmyM
Flashlight Enthusiast
I just did a search for a PCB artist .fab file to gerber file generator/converter and came up snake-eyes. So looks like I'm going to be learning Eagle 5.9.
Too bad. I really like PCB Artist. Damn. 'Cause I'd pay for a PCB artist version that exports gerber files.
I'll read some tutorials on Eagle.
Creating schematic symbols, PCB packages. Joining them for a component, or however Eagle does it.
Too bad. I really like PCB Artist. Damn. 'Cause I'd pay for a PCB artist version that exports gerber files.
I'll read some tutorials on Eagle.
Creating schematic symbols, PCB packages. Joining them for a component, or however Eagle does it.
HarryN
Flashlight Enthusiast
Sorry - off topic - deleted
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Th232
Flashlight Enthusiast
Can't really talk about tutorials or sites, we had a couple of lectures on it at uni, that's where I picked most of it up. If you want to learn how to make custom components though, this one is pretty useful:
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-custom-library-part-in-Eagle-CAD-too/
The UI could be done a bit better in some ways, e.g. if you select a group of components then try to do something with them, if you just left click you only select the component the cursor is over, you have to ctrl + right click to select a group. That's the same for moving stuff, rotating, deleting &c. There's a line of text at the bottom that tells you what your options are, but it's still a bit odd.
Another issue that sometimes pops up is when you're using components that are really close to the design rule limits, e.g. I had a component where the distance between the edge of one pad to the next was 8 mils, and the limit on pad spacing was also 8 mils. End result was that I got an error for two pads out of 16, the rest were completely fine even though they were all the same distance apart. Probably a rounding issue in the code.
Those're a couple just off the top of my head.
A couple of neat things that're in Eagle though. The ULPs (User Language Programs) are often quite useful, even if the naming isn't always the most intuitive. For home etchers in particular, there's one called drill-aid, where it creates an extra layer and reduced all holes to a set diameter. Once you've etched the board, the reduced hole size helps centre your drill bit.
This one won't be useful for everyone, but if you have access to a laser or something, you can also make your own solder masks fairly simply. I export the board as an hpgl file, convert to .dxf and edit it in AutoCAD (usually only a 5 or 10 min job). Then cut out the design, at work when we need stencils we use an Nd:YAG laser.
JimmyM
Flashlight Enthusiast
I found a thread at AVRFreaks regarding PCB Design software.
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=73754
http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=73754
Alan B
Flashlight Enthusiast
Great link!
Looks like gEDA is worth looking into...
Maybe DipTrace also.
KiCad sounds interesting..
According to the discussion there, Eagle is the hardest package to learn and there are many good alternatives.
Thanks for the link!!
JimmyM
Flashlight Enthusiast
That's the same conclusion I came to.
Illum
Flashaholic
out of curiosity where do you find inductors in PCB artist?
For the life of me I can't find such a library in the add components page
PCB artist is likely the most frustrating modeling software I've tried to use, after awhile I just went back to drawing on graph paper and using rulers.
Running on a P4 system thats relatively clean, 2GB of ram, yet it takes painfully slow to add a component, frequent freezes, and do not have the most basic of components such as inductors and resonators
JimmyM
Flashlight Enthusiast
That's odd. I use a crappy old P4-1.8GHz mahcine with a Gig of RAM. It usually performs adequately. Not like my quad core laptop. THAT's fast.
When I can't find something I just make my own stuff. I've created my own Library files for schematic symbols, PCB symbols, and components so they don't get over written by updates or anything.
When I can't find something I just make my own stuff. I've created my own Library files for schematic symbols, PCB symbols, and components so they don't get over written by updates or anything.
wquiles
Flashaholic
I know that most of you guys already ditched Eagle, but the amount of libraries and parts freely available for Eagle, is a great plus on using Eagle :devil:
Illum
Flashaholic
trying out eagle at the moment...
only issues I've found so far is that no TO-92 icon exist for any transistor but instead only in TO-18, which looked horrible with wires wrapped all over in building the layout.
PCB, parts searching, trim, extend, etc...all very easy. Its alot like CAD, only everythings in one layer:duh2:
Wheres the explode/part isolator function?:shrug:
only issues I've found so far is that no TO-92 icon exist for any transistor but instead only in TO-18, which looked horrible with wires wrapped all over in building the layout.
PCB, parts searching, trim, extend, etc...all very easy. Its alot like CAD, only everythings in one layer:duh2:
Wheres the explode/part isolator function?:shrug:
