Wicked Lasers 445nm <1W Spyder III Pro Arctic Series

[wyager]

Very nicely put, thank you for clarifying that purely thermal effects are not the sole contributor to retinal damage. The photoacoustic component is probably the dominant damage mechanism in this case, likely involving optic inertial cavitation. Essentially, the incident energy forms small bubbles that violently collapse, yielding highly localized areas of extreme temp and pressure (potentially thousands of degrees C and thousands of psi's over a very small area, and for a very short time).

Cavitation damage creates nucleation sites for more bubbles, creating more cavitation damage, creating more bubbles, creating more damage..... I'm speculating here, but I suspect that is part of the reason why a small but intense projection onto the retina can end up destroying the entire thing. Likely it's also the source of the reported "pop".

Google image "cavitation damage" to see what it can do to poorly designed mechanical systems. We actually exploit a similar effect in the semiconductor industry to clean wafers, in fact I just finished designing such a system.

Very cool. I wasn't aware of the extremity of this effect, it sounds a lot worse than simple thermal damage.

[AnAppleSnail]

Very cool. I wasn't aware of the extremity of this effect, it sounds a lot worse than simple thermal damage.

Research I've found suggest that acoustic effects seem to be dominate with short exposures around 10 microseconds - a quick sweep of the beam, for example. Rockwell Laser Industries' data suggests that with longer exposures the other damage types dominate. But once your retina exploded, I don't think you have as much to worry about until laser drilling starts.

Considering what dinky exposures have lead to injury in industrial and laboratory conditions, I can understand the reasoning of those who think that this laser is a very very bad idea - if I'm reading this research right, then a momentary direct exposure can cause permanent broad retinal damage, and momentary reflections permanent blind spots. One starts to wonder if wearing blue goggles constantly is going to be the only safe way through the next year. I hope buyers are responsible with this.

[SmurfTacular]

The more I read about this laser, the less fun you can have with it. I want a laser where I don't have to be constantly worrying if theres any people in the area where i'm shining it at, or if theres any reflective surfaces.

Why don't they release a 50mW version of this? Maybe in the form of a pen that takes two AAA.

[R11GS]

The more I read about this laser, the less fun you can have with it. I want a laser where I don't have to be constantly worrying if theres any people in the area where i'm shining it at, or if theres any reflective surfaces.

Why don't they release a 50mW version of this? Maybe in the form of a pen that takes two AAA.

Fun is a relative term but IMO you should not use this indoors (at full power) if there is anyone present without eye protection and it should only be used outdoors if it never strikes any objects in the near field......

But that's just me...

[wyager]

The more I read about this laser, the less fun you can have with it. I want a laser where I don't have to be constantly worrying if theres any people in the area where i'm shining it at, or if theres any reflective surfaces.

Why don't they release a 50mW version of this? Maybe in the form of a pen that takes two AAA.

If you want low power, use the training lens+low power mode. And on top of that, these things won't even lase below 250mA, which means nothing below 100mW or so.

[ejot]

How do you electronically lock something? What do we have to like press the same button in some sort of cryptic pattern every time we need to use this thing? That will get very annoying very fast!

Looks like you nailed it. Now on the site:

The SmartSwitch™ prevents accidental and unauthorized activation of the laser by requiring a short sequence of clicks and click-holds to unlock the laser. ... Once the user is ready to experience maximum 100% power, it takes only 2 clicks to change the mode and mere seconds to replace the lens.

It always turns on at 6Hz/50% duty cycle of the LOW mode. No memory. I like having the option of low modes, but not being able to turn it on at full power?

[StarHalo]

The more I read about this laser, the less fun you can have with it. I want a laser where I don't have to be constantly worrying if theres any people in the area where i'm shining it at, or if theres any reflective surfaces.

I can't use my HID light indoors (or in a suburban area for that matter), but that actually makes it more fun..

It always turns on at 6Hz/50% duty cycle of the LOW mode. No memory. I like having the option of low modes, but not being able to turn it on at full power?

I'd give it a couple of weeks, then there'll be instructions/links here on how to disable all the safeties and run it at ~2W...

[wyager]

you guys realize you don't HAVE to get the safety features, right?
You can send them your ID and get the original laser.

[ejot]

I'd give it a couple of weeks, then there'll be instructions/links here on how to disable all the safeties and run it at ~2W...

Excellent, we decided that extra warranty I paid for wasn't very good anyway, right?

you guys realize you don't HAVE to get the safety features, right?
You can send them your ID and get the original laser.

I don't think it's that easy though, don't they mean you have to provide both of the following:
1) Scanned government-issued photo ID card
2) Certificate of professional requirement that matches name on
above ID card (IE: Law Enforcement, Scientific, Medical, Military
license)

I'm not exactly clear what #2 means or who issues these certificates. I do have a legitimate scientific/professional use for this. Can I get the original one?

And I still haven't gotten this email announcing this.

[wyager]

Wicked probably doesn't even really care if you have a license or not! Just send them an email...

[ejot]

I'm still really conflicted on this. Low power modes would be nice, but the implementation is awful. Actually, I think the new features make this more dangerous. That probably sounds absurd but hear me out.


When you're working with a very high power laser, you need to get yourself into a very focused state where you're always aware of exactly what the beam is doing. It has to be first and foremost on your mind, even in a controlled optics-table setting. You may be doing research, but when you're executing a maneuver with the laser, you don't think about research. You focus on that operation only. Now on the Spyder, adding funny sequences of necessary clicks, taps, tap-holds, tap-dances, rub-belly-and-pat head motions just to turn on the thing, that takes away from your concentration on safety.


If you think that kind of "simple" multitasking thought is intuitive and natural, ... well, it's usually not. Look at cell/texting while driving statistics. Try counting from 1 to 10 aloud while writing down a line you know from heart. The brain - just doesn't do two things at the exact same time very well. Think about the last awesome programmable light you ordered and excitedly tore into? How did you figure out the UI? Maybe you read a little bit and then grabbed the light and started tooling around with it:
"Let's see here... triple click ... ah crap, didn't click fast enough. OK, let's do it again. Yup, got it, is that the lowest low? I think so... sweeeet."


Do you want to be "learning" or "feeling out" your laser's UI the first time you double click to power up a 1W laser beam?







I'm not done yet.




The other problem with baby-proofing this sucker is the complacency it engenders: A fake sense that the danger is removed. Now it is more likely that people will carelessly grab the laser and start walking down the street, lighting up street signs with their "harmless" 2mW, slightly flickery, large blue dot. And you know how people are. Your buddy's unimpressed ... "I thought it could set stuff on fire?" .... "Oh heck yes, here hold my beer and watch THIS!" (Okay I stole that line from Abtomat's opinion of recent SureFire models).

Imagine a gun where, to shoot it, you have to pull lightly on the trigger three times within 2sec, then pull and hold for >2.5sec, release, and it's ready to go. Except it only fires the first bullet at 5% of normal velocity. On the second shot, if you want full velocity, you double tap the trigger again.

Admittedly not a perfect analogy; a gun's role in self-defense precludes such operation first and foremost. But I submit that MUCH of the ridiculousness in the above example is exactly applicable to this laser. Both are extremely dangerous, therefore the firing mechanism is a poor platform for the interface.



This is a bad move.



And now I'm done.

[Juggernaut]

I'm still really conflicted on this. Low power modes would be nice, but the implementation is awful. Actually, I think the new features make this more dangerous. That probably sounds absurd but hear me out.


When you're working with a very high power laser, you need to get yourself into a very focused state where you're always aware of exactly what the beam is doing. It has to be first and foremost on your mind, even in a controlled optics-table setting. You may be doing research, but when you're executing a maneuver with the laser, you don't think about research. You focus on that operation only. Now on the Spyder, adding funny sequences of necessary clicks, taps, tap-holds, tap-dances, rub-belly-and-pat head motions just to turn on the thing, that takes away from your concentration on safety.


If you think that kind of "simple" multitasking thought is intuitive and natural, ... well, it's usually not. Look at cell/texting while driving statistics. Try counting from 1 to 10 aloud while writing down a line you know from heart. The brain - just doesn't do two things at the exact same time very well. Think about the last awesome programmable light you ordered and excitedly tore into? How did you figure out the UI? Maybe you read a little bit and then grabbed the light and started tooling around with it:
"Let's see here... triple click ... ah crap, didn't click fast enough. OK, let's do it again. Yup, got it, is that the lowest low? I think so... sweeeet."


Do you want to be "learning" or "feeling out" your laser's UI the first time you double click to power up a 1W laser beam?







I'm not done yet.




The other problem with baby-proofing this sucker is the complacency it engenders: A fake sense that the danger is removed. Now it is more likely that people will carelessly grab the laser and start walking down the street, lighting up street signs with their "harmless" 2mW, slightly flickery, large blue dot. And you know how people are. Your buddy's unimpressed ... "I thought it could set stuff on fire?" .... "Oh heck yes, here hold my beer and watch THIS!" (Okay I stole that line from Abtomat's opinion of recent SureFire models).

Imagine a gun where, to shoot it, you have to pull lightly on the trigger three times within 2sec, then pull and hold for >2.5sec, release, and it's ready to go. Except it only fires the first bullet at 5% of normal velocity. On the second shot, if you want full velocity, you double tap the trigger again.

Admittedly not a perfect analogy; a gun's role in self-defense precludes such operation first and foremost. But I submit that MUCH of the ridiculousness in the above example is exactly applicable to this laser. Both are extremely dangerous, therefore the firing mechanism is a poor platform for the interface.



This is a bad move.



And now I'm done.

I was thinking the exact same thing, but didn’t bother posting because I didn’t think anyone else would understand, you summed this up perfectly! Some time to safe is just that, making things more complicated then they need to be = danger! I have been on the fire range before and seen guys pull the trigger = nothing happens they turn around with the gun pointing at me and ask their buddy how to turn off the safety! I’m honestly going to ask them to give me a “none safety version“, just because it frightens me! Ha I actually thought people were blowing this thing out of proportion with it’s danger, but this actually terrifies me more then the concept of a 1 watt laser, I can no longer even let my friends try it themselves in fear of the “fire range safety turnaround” just to much going on at once will be the problem.

Anyways, I asked earlier and no one commented, I’ll submit a request for a safety less version but I need to know how old do you have to be to buy this? I was going to give them my FID card “bit of demonstration of mature use of dangerous objects.

[AJ_Dual]

IMO, all the new "safety features" might help with getting an FDA Accession number. Assuming WL cares, or just does not fake one...

However, I strongly suspect they're having heat and duty cycle problems with any driver that's affordable to them in the economy of scale that they need. Running at 1W in CW is going to leave them with a problem with all those people who buy the extended two year warranty.

WL is right on the brink with the Arctic. Intentionally or not, they've bet the whole company on this.

Not telling anyone this is a pre-order.

FDA Accession number status in question.

LOTS of press activity which may put US Customs (and other nations) on notice.

WL's refund plus policy for intercepted lasers.

The possibility of diode death at the stated specs.

Credit card/Worldpay/Bank fines for chargebacks and disputes if FUD reaches critical and people bail on their orders faster than WL can refund them.

Damn I wanted one of these. However, now I think I'll wait for the diodes to trickle down to lesser known makers who aren't on the radar of the press, the .gov, or the masses who read Gizmodo...like O-Like, Novalasers etc.

[ejot]

Great posts. AJ you hit the nail on the head on all those points, I haven't even gotten into that.

Somehow I'm still hopeful. And very patient.

[wyager]

AJ-the thing about accession numbers is that if wicked applies the day they ship, the FDA has to let all those lasers in. It's an innocent until proven guilty type thing, if you apply for an accession number it's fine to import UNTIL they evaluate the product and say it's NOT okay. That should give wicked a significant period when they can ship unhindered.

[SmurfTacular]

IMO, all the new "safety features" might help with getting an FDA Accession number. Assuming WL cares, or just does not fake one...

I agree, WL could care less about safety features if it weren't for the FDA and FAA. As long as they could sell more lasers and make more money.

They did it for legality purposes.

[DM51]

I just got an email from WL...

I received a message from a member who was concerned that SmurfTacular's post (#248) might be in contravention of Rule 12, which forbids the posting of PMs and other private correspondence. I'll clear this up now, as it is an important point for members to understand.

The answer is that SmurfTacular did NOT break the rule. The email he received from WL was a safety announcement for circulation to all customers. It was therefore not in any sense a private communication. I deleted the links to WL in the email as these were unnecessary, but it was perfectly in order for the remainder of the email to be quoted.

We won't enter into a further discussion of this point here; the purpose of this post is purely to clear up this single issue, not to start a debate on the matter.

[jellydonut]

Damn I wanted one of these. However, now I think I'll wait for the diodes to trickle down to lesser known makers who aren't on the radar of the press, the .gov, or the masses who read Gizmodo...like O-Like, Novalasers etc.

It would seem Novalasers already has

http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/...p?idCategory=2

They make the same claims WL does, down to 'world's most compact', even. It does look more 'professional' than WL's lightsaber clone.

[Isak Hawk]

It would seem Novalasers already has

http://www.novalasers.com/NOVAstore/...p?idCategory=2

They make the same claims WL does, down to 'world's most compact', even. It does look more 'professional' than WL's lightsaber clone.

I think they decided not to make the atlantis after all, stating it was too dangerous or something... Not sure why it's still on their website, but if you click on it it just says "No products have been assigned to this category"

EDIT: here's the official statement:

After consulting with laser users as well as experts in the field of laser applications and safety we have decided to suspend production on the Atlantis-1 445nm <1W laser and will not be carrying this product at this time. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Please note that we do not regularly monitor the forums and any questions should be sent to [link removed]

Best Regards,
Magdalena Gudzowska
NOVALasers Inc.

[jellydonut]

Oh - I just assumed it was so new they hadn't gotten to making a page for it.

That sucks.

Maybe someone should lecture them on the applications of fertilizer+diesel, or gasoline in a glass bottle with a rag stuck in it, before they knee-jerk at powerful lasers.

At this rate I'll have to buy the projector myself.

[senecaripple]

novalaser probably dropped or suspended the atlantis because of the problems wl is experiencing. nor could they compete with wl at that price. they'll wait and see how wl will handle this sale first before they commit.

[wyager]

At this rate I'll have to buy the projector myself.

If you really want it now, make it yourself. You don't even have to buy the whole projector It's cheaper as well, and with no chance of legal issues. $35 for a diode, $23 for a driver, $18 for a good AW battery, $41 for a basic host, $10 for a lens, $2 for an aixiz module, $8 for goggles. Factor in about $10 shipping and you're looking at around $150. Keep in mind these are the things I bought minus a few optional features. Plus you can set it to any power level you want below about 1300mW. Also, imagine how cheap wicked can make these things with mass production and bulk buying if we can make them cheaper than they're selling them.

[StarHalo]

imagine how cheap wicked can make these things with mass production and bulk buying if we can make them cheaper than they're selling them.

Imagine how much profit there would be in it for a CPFer willing to build some and sell them here slightly cheaper than Wicked and with no safety features..

[jellydonut]

If you really want it now, make it yourself. You don't even have to buy the whole projector It's cheaper as well, and with no chance of legal issues. $35 for a diode, $23 for a driver, $18 for a good AW battery, $41 for a basic host, $10 for a lens, $2 for an aixiz module, $8 for goggles. Factor in about $10 shipping and you're looking at around $150. Keep in mind these are the things I bought minus a few optional features. Plus you can set it to any power level you want below about 1300mW. Also, imagine how cheap wicked can make these things with mass production and bulk buying if we can make them cheaper than they're selling them.

Where on earth did you find the diodes for sale?

[bshanahan14rulz]

If only somebody somewhere made kits where all you have to do is provide battery and diode

but yeah, I'm planning on making my own with at least two output levels.

[Illum]

if someone hits me with a laser don't blame me for responding as if that laser was mounted on a weapon

if it goes down to this, then so be it

[StarHalo]

if it goes down to this, then so be it

"There is a flip side to that coin.."

[wyager]

Where on earth did you find the diodes for sale?

Laserpointerforums. BTW the $35 price is for a group buy, and will take a lot longer. If you want it now buy it direct for $50. I bought mine from hakzaw1, it got here in two days. It's really simple if you know how to solder... and you can basically buy it assembled for a few extra bucks.

[AJ_Dual]

AJ-the thing about accession numbers is that if wicked applies the day they ship, the FDA has to let all those lasers in. It's an innocent until proven guilty type thing, if you apply for an accession number it's fine to import UNTIL they evaluate the product and say it's NOT okay. That should give wicked a significant period when they can ship unhindered.

Well, someone on LPF has had correspondence with the FDA and they state they are aware of WL's newest product, they don't have an Accession number the one they're claiming is false.

Also it's unclear what the status of an Accession number application would be if it's from a company that's on the import watch list, and is flouting the import regs on all their other products at the exact same time.

I don't know the rules for sure but I find it difficult to believe that the FDA would give them an Accession number with all the other ongoing violations.

[wyager]

good point AJ... I have no idea how being red-flagged affects accession protocols. And do digital "safety keys" count as safety keys to the FDA?