Wicked Lasers 445nm <1W Spyder III Pro Arctic Series

[AnAppleSnail]

All the math is correct. The reason you're getting 151.5mm instead of 150.0mm is the original 1.5mm diameter of the beam leaving the aperture.
The expansion due to divergence is 150.0mm, and add the original diameter gives you 151.5mm. Simple "off by one" error.

Ah, I see now that I misread your post - I thought you were saying that it would be 1.51 (or maybe 15.1?) mm across at that point. No harm meant, and I realize I should have used less harsh language.

That's what I get for leaving my calculator in degrees. Though that does seem like a pretty poor divergence, very disappointing in terms of laser power, but in terms of having these things in the public hand, a very good "safety net" so to speak.

I now concur with the 151.5mm at 100m.

Pretty disappointing IMO, but much much much much safer.

Much cheaper, too! Making a small divergence (You'd need to have it an order of magnitude less to make a real difference) requires a larger lens.

[65535]

A beam divergence of 1.5mdegrees would be pretty cool, by my calculations.

[Isak Hawk]

That's what I get for leaving my calculator in degrees. Though that does seem like a pretty poor divergence, very disappointing in terms of laser power, but in terms of having these things in the public hand, a very good "safety net" so to speak.

I now concur with the 151.5mm at 100m.

Pretty disappointing IMO, but much much much much safer.

It's actually pretty good (especially for a diode only laser). So good in fact, that I've seen some people speculate as to whether or not it's true. I sure hope it's true, 1.5mrad is as good as many DPSS lasers.

Edit: Also, even though the beam may be 15cm after traveling 100m, it can still cause severe eye damage.

[senecaripple]

had to jump on this before the ban. too bad DX was prohibited from exporting lasers but not the other companies.

[Juggernaut]

I received both order confirmation and payment confirmation emails later that night. They came at the same time. How did you pay?

Starting to think: Best case, it's a long time before anyone sees these. Worst case.........

All I’ve gotten is a “RBS WorldPay CARD transaction Confirmation” E-mail saying they have received my payment “via Master Card“, and they did take the money, so does that mean a go? Also, through the check-out, they asked for my age and reason for purchase, but not that ID digital signature thing. Did you have to do that?

[ejot]

I ordered before they started asking your age, so not sure on that. It sounds like you're all set though. Give them a call if you're not sure, I was able to talk to someone this morning by pressing 2 for "Sales". She said it would ship by the end of the month.

[aml]

The power of this, relative to the price, scares me. I worry about laser non-experts (such as myself) picking them up because of the attractive price, and not treating them with the respect they require for safe use.....

and to qualify this, i'm usually not scared of dangerous items....Im one of the wackos mentioned in this thread that owns class II NFA weapons....short barreled rifles, silencers....etc....


All of that being said....ya...I ordered 2 of them.

[DM51]

I worry about laser non-experts ... picking them up because of the attractive price, and not treating them with the respect they require for safe use.

This thread has bothered me from the start, and aml mentions just one very valid concern.

Another problem concerns the posts that have talked of burning things, injuring people, causing blindness and so on - none of this helped by a thread title that includes the word "deathray".

Much of this may be hyperbole, and it is possible the item is not as dangerous as some people make it out to be. I am not an expert on lasers and have no way of knowing; however it seems to me highly unlikely that it is harmless.

There is one further concern, and that is the question of legality. Where a legal limit of 5mW is imposed by most countries on the sale of lasers, what is the legal position concerning the sale and/or ownership of a laser that is 200 times more powerful than that limit?

We will listen to the submissions of members concerning this point. Submissions are to be kept polite, civil and on topic, or the thread will be closed (which I suspect will happen in due course anyway).

[R11GS]

While not specifically a laser expert per se, I am a photonic generalist professionally and have from time to time over the past decades reasons to work with laser devices in my line of work for a very wide variety of applications. IMO these are very dangerous lasers in terms of their potential for retinal damage. I don't see them as particularly dangerous from a burning standpoint; more a curiosity. From a risk analysis perspective the retinal damage risk makes the burn risk (either causing skin burns or setting fires) almost insignificant. I'd suggest that anyone present while they are operated indoors should have appropriate eyewear and the operator should treat it with a great deal of respect. Outdoor use with people not wearing appropriate eyewear is safe as long as the operator approaches the use with all due caution; i.e. the laser should not strike any object in the near field (I'll consider working out what that means, but it's probably at least 100-200m) and it should not be able to strike an object where a person may be nearby. Just my .02...

As far as the legal issues with ownership, I think that is an almost purely political discussion and I tend to avoid those on most internet forums that don't focus on politics like this one. So I'll pass on those comments!

[Shiftlock]

Yes, those are all valid concerns, but the same concerns were made years ago when relatively powerful DPSSFD 532nm lasers became affordable. I recall the same things being said about cheap green pointers that could easily be modified to ~100mW, and again when Chinese DPSS lasers of more than double that became available. It's true that we're now talking about even more power, but I'm not certain these 445nm lasers are as dangerous as they're being made out to sound. For example, I suspect the divergence of these lasers will be greater than DPSS green lasers (regardless of listed specs). Also, as I've already said, I'm skeptical of the 1W power claims. Wicked Lasers lists the output as <1W (i.e. under 1 watt), and WL has been known to inflate stats. Another thing (that I don't know much about) which may play a factor is the correlation between frequency and eye damage. I could be wrong about this, but I suspect that retinal damage may be less at 445nm than it is at 532nm.

What I'm saying is that, while there's no question that these powerful 445nm lasers can be very dangerous, especially in the wrong hands, so are lasers that have been available for years. People were worried years ago that high power 532nm lasers would cause all the same problems people are now worried about with these new 445nm lasers. I can even remember back in the 1980's when affordable Class 2 red pointers came on the market, people had the same concerns about eye damage. However, the horror stories of mass eye damage never materialized. I think (and hope) that's how this will play out. You can be certain that in a few years we'll see an even more powerful, inexpensive laser of some sort, and these 445nm units will seem tame in comparison. Again we'll hear all the same concerns. Seems to be a cycle that's repeating itself. Only time will tell.

Which makes me think... What kind of pocket-size laser will we be able to purchase for a few hundred dollars in 25 or 30 years? If technology keeps advancing the way it has, portable lasers may literally become a "deathray." At that point, these concerns will certainly be valid.

[bshanahan14rulz]

Hear-say is that as long as the portable laser has a few specific safety features, it can be sold legally. It must have keys, a shut-off mechanism, and a shutter at the aperature. It also shouldn't be advertised as a pointer.

1W isn't an immense amount of power for anybody who has messed with high-power lasers. If all you've had, though are the <5mW pointers, this thing will blow you away.

I think this particular diode has several emitters, causing the bar-shaped output. this transverse multimode operation of the diode results in a high divergence along that axis. If you are collimating with just a simple aspheric (and I doubt WL has anamorphic prism pairs in their Arctic), your divergence will be pretty crappy. It'll still be plenty dangerous, just it would be about as bad as a 200mW green DPSS at distance. Of course, that's plenty to "dazzle" a person's night-vision.

I wish that, instead of making this one available for $230, WL made their other, older technology lasers cheaper. I'd much rather have a 400mW green for 200 than a 1000mW blue for 200. Erm, well, now that I think about it.....

[SmurfTacular]

This thread has bothered me from the start, and aml mentions just one very valid concern.

Another problem concerns the posts that have talked of burning things, injuring people, causing blindness and so on - none of this helped by a thread title that includes the word "deathray".

Much of this may be hyperbole, and it is possible the item is not as dangerous as some people make it out to be. I am not an expert on lasers and have no way of knowing; however it seems to me highly unlikely that it is harmless.

There is one further concern, and that is the question of legality. Where a legal limit of 5mW is imposed by most countries on the sale of lasers, what is the legal position concerning the sale and/or ownership of a laser that is 200 times more powerful than that limit?

We will listen to the submissions of members concerning this point. Submissions are to be kept polite, civil and on topic, or the thread will be closed (which I suspect will happen in due course anyway).

Isn't that the stupidest law in existence? I currently own a Viasho 500mW 532nm green laser, a Wicked Laser 180mW Evolution Pro, and soon a 1,000mW 445nm blue. None of them are illegal. But I do own a 50mW chinese laser that is completely illegal .

The FDA is trying the best the y can to prevent retards from pointing them at aircraft.

All IIIb mst legally have a key as a killswitch. Here is a statement relesased from the FDA

The FDA standard 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11) requires a warning label on Class IIIa and IIIb products. Class IIIb products must also have a key switch and connector for remote interlock. The products are also required to have identifying and certifying labels and instructions for safe use.

There are some other laws that go along with IIIb lasers. Like only aproved manufactures are allowed to make IIIb lasers.

[SmurfTacular]

If you are collimating with just a simple aspheric (and I doubt WL has anamorphic prism pairs in their Arctic), your divergence will be pretty crappy.

Wicked Lasers is know for three things: Really cool looking lasers, really expensive and over priced lasers, and they all have really tight beams. This particular 1w WL has a beam divergence of just 1.5mrad as stated in there specifications

Name: Spyder III Pro Arctic Series
Size: 228mm x 35.8mm
Weight: 378g
Wavelength: 445nm
Laser Body: 6061-T6 Aircraft-Grade Aluminum
Laser Finish: Mil-Spec Type III hard anodized in black
Transverse Mode: TEM00
Output Power: <1W
Beam Divergence: <1.5mRad
Beam Diameter: 1.5mm @ aperture
NOHD* 211 meters
Required Eyewear O.D. 4.4+
Power Consumption: 3.7V @ 1A
Power supply: Rechargeable Lithium Ion Battery Type 18650 (batteries and charger included)
Battery Lifetime: 120 mins
Switch: Push Button Constant On / Off, Lock-Out Tail Cap
Duty Cycle: Continuous
Expected lifetime: >5,000 hours
Warranty: 3 months

[aml]

My thoughts on the price point is to hurry up and saturate the potential market, and make big profits as quick as possible before some sort of regulation is put into effect.

From a business perspective, each laser projector they purchase and disassemble commits them to 24 units, because there are 24 diodes per unit. If these came out at a start price of $2000, most of us would sit on our hands and wait to see Youtube vids, read reviews...before committing to a purchase.

At an introductory price of $200, Many of us buy one just because....such as myself...Im not even a laser guy...I have no real interest in these, other than the novelty of it. And i wouldnt even consider the purchase if they were $2000. But heck, i got 200 bucks......Even if i just throw it in the safe and sit on it.

So, from a business standpoint, this is smart on the part of WL....They will have sold literally 100's (possibly thousands) of these before the first one is ever delivered. A quick nickle instead of a slow dime.

Had they been in the $2000 range (which i expect them to be after the initial volley) They would be sitting on tons of these, waiting for people to justify the expense.

[Raccoon]

I understand DM51's concerns and inclinations to close/delete this thread. But I hope that doesn't happen.

First of all, the Lasers forum was created in 2005(ish) exactly for this reason. A place for this pseudo-legal "laser deathray" discussion without scaring the diapers off the tame flashlight folk.

Also, over the next few weeks, this thread will serve a very useful purpose. People will report on their purchase experiences, shipping/tracking times, and initial un-boxing reviews of the product when it finally arrives.

Deleting this thread will only cause a new one to pop up in its place. You can't stop people from discussing a new product on the market. You can prohibit it, but you can't stop it.

I suggest we rename the thread as simply "Wicked Lasers 445nm <1W Spyder III Pro Arctic Series". Moderators do have that ability.

If there are specific posts of unease, I'd recommend deleting those from the thread rather than removing the entire thread. Again, a new one will just pop up in its place, and there are already so many useful quality posts in this thread.

[DM51]

Raccoon, thank you for your very good post. I've changed the title as you suggest.

[aml]

I think that some of the most valuable posts in this thread are from the subject matter experts who are driving home the serious nature of a product like this, without demonizing it. I believe in freedom, and the freedom to own potentially dangerous products such as this...But i also believe that people should be acutely aware of the risks involved, and the safe handling procedures.

When it comes to something like this, the point that it must be handled with respect, cannot be made too many times.

With all of that being said, and the previous mention of WL's sly business decisions, i think that a higher price point would eliminate the casual (and possibly more irresponsible) buyer.

Even at $600, i think there would be less chance that these end up in the hands of misfit teenagers and the like.

[Raccoon]

With respect to your opinion, I am of the opinion that using price point as a discouragement tool is neither practical from a business sense nor legally justified in a free country touting a free market.

If we were to tax pointy sticks and 5 gallon buckets (filled with water) the same as we tax tobacco and alcohol, nobody would be able to afford to kill themselves.

Of course my example is saturated with sarcasm, but it speaks to the nature and absurdity of raising prices to protect the lower class from themselves. If anything, the lower class is much more accustomed and prepared in the handling of dangerous items than the cozy upper class.

Common sense and safety mindedness does not correlate with one's financial situation. The only purpose of raising the price of an item is to discourage the sale of that item. And if you cannot legally prohibit the sale of the item completely, then it should not be legal to discourage the sale by making it unaffordable.

[R11GS]

...I could be wrong about this, but I suspect that retinal damage may be less at 445nm than it is at 532nm...

My understanding has been that shorter wavelengths typically cause more retinal damage and that there is something physiologically different about how light in the 450nm region damages the eye. I have very good understanding of the physiology of visual perception (it's part of my job) but I am not that well versed in the physiology of retinal damage.

Personally I have a ton of respect for even 100mW @ 532nm but unless you take a direct (or specular) hit on the pupil I'm not overly concerned. It's to be avoided in my book however. I value my eyesight way too much and even doing damage that is below the perceptual level is something I definitely want to avoid. I'm old enough that everything's degrading on its own and I don't need to help it along! Shorter wavelength laser at and order of magnitude more power concerns me quite a bit more - even a bright non-specular reflection could cause some retinal damage albeit a far cry from blindness. Add to that that it will be perceptually much less bright which might decrease the natural aversion to the bright source.

Folks are right in that time will tell. More of these and brighter units will get out there and it's just a matter of how long and in how many hands. We'll see!

[matt304]

Is that Mel Gibson above me???

So guys, I just built a 445nm laser a couple of days ago. I am running the laser right near 1100mW at 1.2A current (Vf = 4.7V).

The beam is INSANE

I have a green laser that is over 400mW and this 1.1W of blue is still much brighter of a beam--I don't care what any of those vision charts say about the spectrum sensitivity. The dot is not brighter than the green dot, but the way the blue reflects off the air particles makes it something you have to see to believe.

Picture a blue neon tube running from your hand to the sky. That's the best way to imagine it.

You guys need to build one of these things and forget that Wicked Laser which won't come for weeks or months. I have one on order myself but couldn't wait. Get yourself a $30 driver, $50 host, $5 module, $55 aspheric AR coated lens, and a $35-50 diode. I can direct you to the parts if you want to build, PM me.

I'm going to run a new driver closer to 1.5A soon to max this thing out.

Don't even think about shining this indoors without eye protection. You will have enough fun pointing it at the sky.

The dot has a football shape and it's not very useful for burning. I always thought burning was overrated anyways.

R11GS, also about wavelengths, you are right that lower wavelengths damage tissue more than higher ones. If you take a 300mW red laser, you can press the lens against you skin and the wavelength won't burn you. The light passes the skin more easily. If you take 300mW of 405nm blue ray, you will not be able to pull your hand away fast enough if you attempt the same thing! Purple seems to stop right at the top of the skin, as if your clear skin becomes opaque to it. I would imagine you could apply somewhat similar theory to tissue on other parts of the body, such as inside the eye.

[Raccoon]

Matt: In your opinion, would you say that a blue module of these specifications would make an effective star pointing tool, especially with multiple viewers observing 20+ degrees from the angle of the beam? In side-by-side comparison, which is more comfortable to look at, and which one leads a more obvious path to the celestial object pointed at?

[was.lost.but.now.found]

If you take a 300mW red laser, you can press the lens against you skin and the wavelength won't burn you. The light passes the skin more easily.

How do you know you are not going to get a nice big patch of melanoma there 5 years from now? Just asking.

[Shiftlock]

Had they been in the $2000 range (which i expect them to be after the initial volley) They would be sitting on tons of these, waiting for people to justify the expense.

$2000? No way, they will only go down in price. They consist of nothing but a driver, a diode and a lens. They're vastly simpler than the green DPSS lasers we're all so used to. The diode is the only expensive part, and they're already available for under $40. You'll be able to get them in bulk from China for 1/4 that price within a year. I don't see how something you'll be able to put together for $30 could ever cost anywhere near $2000.

I'm old enough that everything's degrading on its own and I don't need to help it along!

Don't you hate the way that happens? I remember when I was younger, and there was no doubt in my mind that I was invincible. Doh!

Of course my example is saturated with sarcasm, but it speaks to the nature and absurdity of raising prices to protect the lower class from themselves. If anything, the lower class is much more accustomed and prepared in the handling of dangerous items than the cozy upper class.

Common sense and safety mindedness does not correlate with one's financial situation. The only purpose of raising the price of an item is to discourage the sale of that item. And if you cannot legally prohibit the sale of the item completely, then it should not be legal to discourage the sale by making it unaffordable.

Of course there are wealthy people who are reckless, but generally speaking, a higher price point means the purchase takes more of a commitment, and that makes it more likely to attract "serious" buyers who respect the safety of the item. A much lower price point makes the item attainable by people looking to "mess around" with a toy. That, and a lower price point simply means more of them will be purchased, which increases the chances that they will end up in unsafe hands. It's a numbers game. There's no question that a dangerous item is safer if it's more expensive (i.e. harder to get for most people), as opposed to when it's affordable by anyone with a few bucks. How can you doubt that?

[Raccoon]

Of course there are wealthy people who are reckless, but generally speaking, a higher price point means the purchase takes more of a commitment, and that makes it more likely to attract "serious" buyers who respect the safety of the item. A much lower price point makes the item attainable by people looking to "mess around" with a toy. That, and a lower price point simply means more of them will be purchased, which increases the chances that they will end up in unsafe hands. It's a numbers game. There's no question that a dangerous item is safer if it's more expensive (i.e. harder to get for most people), as opposed to when it's affordable by anyone with a few bucks. How can you doubt that?

I wont disagree with you there. But I will point out that the scenario is synonymous with attempting make something financially unattainable when it's impossible to outright prohibit -- which is a problem on two fronts. It not only harms the fundamentals of the free market system, but it causes the very problem you outline.

The reason there are fewer "serious buyers" out there who "respect the safety of the item" is because there were fewer buyers all along. The marketplace is only now opening up to a general public who can not only afford to purchase this particular product, but now they can afford to become serious hobbyists.

I'd like to point to a time when every household had a firearm, and every child between the age of 8 and 12 was fostered with training and respect for that firearm and all that it stood for. Now that we've become "civilized" as a society, children are no longer taught the fundamentals of firearms and only learn what they see in movies and rap videos.

This is pretty much the same thing with lasers -- and applies to any dangerous tool or instrument. We need to teach and foster respect for these dangers and the value of human life. That isn't going to happen when only 3 people own dangerous tools.

[Juggernaut]

The beam is INSANE

I have a green laser that is over 400mW and this 1.1W of blue is still much brighter of a beam--I don't care what any of those vision charts say about the spectrum sensitivity. The dot is not brighter than the green dot, but the way the blue reflects off the air particles makes it something you have to see to believe.

How well does it hit clouds? Not like the ones HID’s can hit, I mean the ones really high up in the atmosphere? I mean sure the beam can hit them, but can you see that from the ground?

[SmurfTacular]

Im sure it can easily hit medium high clouds. I have a Viasho 500mW green that hits clouds with ease. And according to Matt, 400mW 532nm green is roughly equal to 1000mW 445nm blue.

[Shiftlock]

I'd like to point to a time when every household had a firearm, and every child between the age of 8 and 12 was fostered with training and respect for that firearm and all that it stood for. Now that we've become "civilized" as a society, children are no longer taught the fundamentals of firearms and only learn what they see in movies and rap videos.

This is pretty much the same thing with lasers -- and applies to any dangerous tool or instrument. We need to teach and foster respect for these dangers and the value of human life. That isn't going to happen when only 3 people own dangerous tools.

Lasers for every child between the age of 8 and 12. I'm all for that!

Seriously though, I don't want get off topic into the area of firearms, because that will get this thread closed, but I respectfully disagree with what you are saying. You're saying that if only "3 people" own a dangerous tool (say, a high-power laser), then the dangers of it aren't going to be respected? really? If only three people own a specific high-power laser, because only three people can afford it, you can be pretty darn certain that those three people are going to be professionals who understand laser safety issues. This seems obvious to me... Unless I misunderstood what you were saying. On the other hand, if the same laser cost $50, how many people are going to get a hold of it who don't understand or respect the safety issues?

Which is why these 1W 445nm lasers are a lot more dangerous at $200 than they would be at $2000. I'm not saying I want them to cost $2000, I just hope that when they drop to $50 in 12 months (which I expect), we don't hear horror stories of high-school kids using them in frivolous and dangerous ways. That's the danger of inexpensive high-power lasers. It would also cause authorities like the FDA to take notice, and create new regulations that will make them harder for anyone to get at any price point. These 1W 445nm lasers aren't even available yet, and there have already been stories about how dangerous they are in major news outlets like MSNBC, CNET, Fox News, and even the Wall Street Journal. Search Google News for "dangerous laser" and you'll see a bunch of articles that were published in the past week (http://bit.ly/azZCBG). All this public attention can't be good (unless you're the owner of Wicked Lasers).

[SmurfTacular]

Lasers for every child between the age of 8 and 12. I'm all for that!

Seriously though, I don't want get off topic into the area of firearms, because that will get this thread closed, but I respectfully disagree with what you are saying. You're saying that if only "3 people" own a dangerous tool (say, a high-power laser), then the dangers of it aren't going to be respected? really? If only three people own a specific high-power laser, because only three people can afford it, you can be pretty darn certain that those three people are going to be professionals who understand laser safety issues. This seems obvious to me... Unless I misunderstood what you were saying. On the other hand, if the same laser cost $50, how many people are going to get a hold of it who don't understand or respect the safety issues?

Which is why these 1W 445nm lasers are a lot more dangerous at $200 than they would be at $2000. I'm not saying I want them to cost $2000, I just hope that when they drop to $50 in 12 months (which I expect), we don't hear horror stories of high-school kids using them in frivolous and dangerous ways. That's the danger of inexpensive high-power lasers. It would also cause authorities like the FDA to take notice, and create new regulations that will make them harder for anyone to get at any price point. These 1W 445nm lasers aren't even available yet, and there have already been stories about how dangerous they are in major news outlets like MSNBC, CNET, Fox News, and even the Wall Street Journal. Search Google News for "dangerous laser" and you'll see a bunch of articles that were published in the past week (http://bit.ly/azZCBG). All this public attention can't be good (unless you're the owner of Wicked Lasers).

I think he might be referring to countries with nuclear weapons. If three people have them, there respected. But if everyone has them, nobody is intimidated.

maybe.

Oh, and I can't believe they used star wars as a metaphor to describe a Jedi as being a trained laser handler.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/06/...s-be-with-you/

[Lasernerd]

I really hope you guys are wearing protective eyewear,,Don't even look at the spot on the wall without eye protection.

Man this talk about burning stuff in this thread is just silly

[SmurfTacular]

I really hope you guys are wearing protective eyewear,,Don't even look at the spot on the wall without eye protection.

Man this talk about burning stuff in this thread is just silly

I wouldn't say that it is silly; as long as you are wearing safety goggles of the correct wavelength, you should be fine