legal/ethical issues regarding the distribution of Tritium based artefacts

I'm convinced that many CPFW visitors are not aware of several tritium issues, and are just blinded by its magic - but very faint, quite expensive, and volatile - glow.

I am tempted to think that many sellers of tritium operate on the borders of laws, cooperate with companies that furnish them tritium under obscure conditions, or simply try to dump old stocks of depleted tritium artefacts.

I think that sellers on CPFW should adhere to a code of conduct where each proposed sale should be accompanied by a warning that

1. tritium is NOT innocent
2. tritium is simply forbidden (sale, possession, etc...) in some countries and subject to regulation in other countries

More specifically, sellers should take the responsability to inform potential buyers of the many aspects of tritium. It would be sufficient to include a clearly visible link to e.g. following page:

http://www.cpfwiki.com/Wiki/index.php/Tritium

I do not agree that it should be the sole responsability of the buyer to inform him/herself before buying stuff. I think that if we can identify efforts that everybody must do to acquire the information, that information could be easily made available rather than have everybody find it out: many potential buyers will never find the information they are looking for, for various reasons.

And I'm aware of the vagueness of all the wordings.

I wish I could post this under http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/forumdisplay.php?f=108 and http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/forumdisplay.php?f=107, but forum guidelines do not allow me this.

Nanny laws don't do anyone a whole lot of good. AFAIK most regulations on tritium exist because tritium IS a component of some nuclear weapons. The amount is magnitudes more than exist in ANY end consumer vials contain. Really it's a pretty useless set of international and different laws that outlaw the stuff.

It really is harmless in the amounts we handle.

Maybe you should explain exactly why tritium is so dangerous and why this is so unethical.

Like you said, you're entirely too vague to make a valid point.

At my place of employment, we have a nuclear safety technician and I actually asked this person to try a geiger counter on my LS20 and he said that the level was negligible at best so while I understand the concern, I believe that having a law would be overkill. I do remember my fathers old military compass that had a radiation symbol on the back plate and I can only assume that tritium was used in these devices as well but I am sure that others around here can fill me in on the exact material that may have been used in the compass. A safety guideline, maybe, a law, I'd rather not waste the taxpayers money.

I'd say it was radioactive paint on the compass.
Anyway, some laws you follow and some you don't. Just have to pay the consequences when you get caught - without whining about it.

... or we can just remove the safety labels from everything and let nature take it's course.

I have trits installed on a few of my lights, and I keep a larger vial on my keychain. Drinking from a plastic water bottle scares me more than the possible effects of prolonged exposure to negligible levels of radiation.

There is far more tritium in the exit signs in my local theaters than what most of us will be illegally harboring.

The sun is what's giving me cancer. Should be regulated!

That's possibly the vaguest wiki entry ever, but I suppose it's a starting point..

The radioactive activity of most of our tritium toys is usually tested to be between .5 and 1 Curie, however it's never mentioned if this measurement is the amount of activity *within* the vial or outside - if measuring equipment isn't picking up anything outside the vial, then the number is meaningless, the relevant amount of radiation to the user is not distinguishable from background sources (the top 1' of soil in a square mile of Earth contains 17 curies.)

Aside from that, most laws against tritium aren't about it being unsafe, they're about preventing it from falling into the wrong hands; tritium is a "supercharger" for nuclear reactions, like those found in nuclear weapons, and can give a notably larger yield from a smaller detonation source.

saabgoblin said:

At my place of employment, we have a nuclear safety technician and I actually asked this person to try a geiger counter on my LS20 and he said that the level was negligible at best so while I understand the concern, I believe that having a law would be overkill. I do remember my fathers old military compass that had a radiation symbol on the back plate and I can only assume that tritium was used in these devices as well but I am sure that others around here can fill me in on the exact material that may have been used in the compass. A safety guideline, maybe, a law, I'd rather not waste the taxpayers money.

Click to expand...

It was more likely radium paint, which is actually more dangerous than tritium because you can scratch it off and get it under your fingernails, into your body, etc. Tritium is harmless by comparison.

I disagree, the onus is not on the seller, it's on the buyer. Just because I can buy a dull katana from a knife store doesn't mean I can sharpen it and carry it around in public just because they never told me I couldn't.

As for health concerns, it'd be great if you weren't so "intentionally vague" and elaborated on them. Having done a good amount of personal research on sealed tritium markers, the health risks of carrying an unbroken one around in your pocket seem to pale in comparison to the amount of radiation your brain received last time your dentist took an X-ray. I suspect that if I die due to continued exposure to anything, it'll be the diesel fumes from the trucks I follow home from work every single day and not the tritium marker I carry on my flashlight.

fyrstormer said:

It was more likely radium paint, which is actually more dangerous than tritium because you can scratch it off and get it under your fingernails, into your body, etc. Tritium is harmless by comparison.

Click to expand...

I suspect we have read the same articles

http://www.damninteresting.com/undark-and-the-radium-girls

axd said:

I am tempted to think that many sellers of tritium operate on the borders of laws, cooperate with companies that furnish them tritium under obscure conditions, or simply try to dump old stocks of depleted tritium artifacts.

Click to expand...

The 2 most active sellers of tritium vials reside in countries where it is legal to purchase and distribute bare tritium vials. I know for a fact that one of them purchases his directly from the manufacturer.

"tritium is NOT innocent"
define innocent? all research points that this material is harmless when used reasonably. does this apply to gun sights? watches which contain the vials? exit signs? (referring to US regulation at the moment -- unsure about other countries) those are all legal.

"tritium is simply forbidden (sale, possession, etc...) in some countries and subject to regulation in other countries"
forbidden? the same way you cannot purchase, or attempt to purchase a vehicle on sundays in minesota? .. Guess I can't visit ebay motors on sunday as it's illegal and forbidden!!
Subject to regulation in the US, yep! no Frivolous use of tritium!

but oh no, because of the extremely lax and impractical regulation of the UK, you can buy tritium vials in bait and tackle shops for use on well, fish bait. Frivolous!!

FYI: There is a radiactive source in smoke dectors also.

There are plenty of silly regulations out there and the limitations on small tritium light sources are one of them. Just like the sources in the smoke detectors, the quantity involved and potential means of contamination in normal every day use pose a near-zero risk to even uneducated purchasers. If you work in a tritium light tube factory, you might need to take precautions. But even if you tried to ingest the contents of a large tritium vial, it's not going to kill you. Suicide by paper cut would be easier.

fyrstormer said:

It was more likely radium paint, which is actually more dangerous than tritium because you can scratch it off and get it under your fingernails, into your body, etc. Tritium is harmless by comparison.

Click to expand...

Radium paint was mostly dangerous to the workers in the manufacturing process. There were several incidents where inadequate or nonexistent precautions were used to protect the workers, causing deaths and health problems to the production workers. However, the injured workers were exposed to a LOT of radium paint. They would actually lick the paint brush to "point" the brush to paint a fine line.

I think that radium painted objects were never much danger to users. There's very little radium paint in a watch or compass. It would still be a bad idea to do anything where you might ingest the dust.

Darell said:

There is far more tritium in the exit signs in my local theaters than what most of us will be illegally harboring.

The sun is what's giving me cancer. Should be regulated!

Click to expand...

This is not about regulation, but about an internal code of conduct on CPF/CPFM.

StarHalo said:

That's possibly the vaguest wiki entry ever, but I suppose it's a starting point..

The radioactive activity of most of our tritium toys is usually tested to be between .5 and 1 Curie, however it's never mentioned if this measurement is the amount of activity *within* the vial or outside - if measuring equipment isn't picking up anything outside the vial, then the number is meaningless, the relevant amount of radiation to the user is not distinguishable from background sources (the top 1' of soil in a square mile of Earth contains 17 curies.)

Aside from that, most laws against tritium aren't about it being unsafe, they're about preventing it from falling into the wrong hands; tritium is a "supercharger" for nuclear reactions, like those found in nuclear weapons, and can give a notably larger yield from a smaller detonation source.

Click to expand...

The law I know is meant to prevent an overconcentration of tritium to the extent that it becomes a health risk to the population.

I guess the US are more focused on nukes, but I find every argument that links to nukes a bit silly: although I don't know the details, I fail to see how CPF hobbyists can ever get enough tritium to contribute to a nuke.

calipsoii said:

I disagree, the onus is not on the seller, it's on the buyer. Just because I can buy a dull katana from a knife store doesn't mean I can sharpen it and carry it around in public just because they never told me I couldn't.

As for health concerns, it'd be great if you weren't so "intentionally vague" and elaborated on them. Having done a good amount of personal research on sealed tritium markers, the health risks of carrying an unbroken one around in your pocket seem to pale in comparison to the amount of radiation your brain received last time your dentist took an X-ray. I suspect that if I die due to continued exposure to anything, it'll be the diesel fumes from the trucks I follow home from work every single day and not the tritium marker I carry on my flashlight.

Click to expand...

First of all, remember that this discussion is complicated by differences in laws across countries. Eg. Sellers of firearms need to follow laws. Knives etc are bound to limits (eg blade length). Firearms are an extreme example, but I don't think a knive (or sword) seller will draw your attention to whether your knife blade is "legal" (whatever that means) or not.

But on CPF we can bundle the information. I am intentionally vague because I open the subject and intent to find a consensus on how to provide a maximum of information to a maximum of buyers across a maximum of countries.

For the last time, I'm fully aware of the weak doses (of alpha, beta radiation) that reside inside (which should be harmless until broken) as well as could escape from such small vials (eg vials that are NOT hermetical, molecules that DO escape, etc).

csshih said:

The 2 most active sellers of tritium vials reside in countries where it is legal to purchase and distribute bare tritium vials. I know for a fact that one of them purchases his directly from the manufacturer.

"tritium is NOT innocent"
define innocent? all research points that this material is harmless when used reasonably. does this apply to gun sights? watches which contain the vials? exit signs? (referring to US regulation at the moment -- unsure about other countries) those are all legal.

"tritium is simply forbidden (sale, possession, etc...) in some countries and subject to regulation in other countries"
forbidden? the same way you cannot purchase, or attempt to purchase a vehicle on sundays in minesota? .. Guess I can't visit ebay motors on sunday as it's illegal and forbidden!!
Subject to regulation in the US, yep! no Frivolous use of tritium!

but oh no, because of the extremely lax and impractical regulation of the UK, you can buy tritium vials in bait and tackle shops for use on well, fish bait. Frivolous!!

Click to expand...

BTW, in at least one country even radioactive materials in smoke detectors are banned.

I don't understand the remainder starting with "tritium is simply forbidden ...

DonShock said:

FYI: There is a radiactive source in smoke dectors also.

There are plenty of silly regulations out there and the limitations on small tritium light sources are one of them. Just like the sources in the smoke detectors, the quantity involved and potential means of contamination in normal every day use pose a near-zero risk to even uneducated purchasers. If you work in a tritium light tube factory, you might need to take precautions. But even if you tried to ingest the contents of a large tritium vial, it's not going to kill you. Suicide by paper cut would be easier.

Click to expand...

Silly or not (I agree), but tritium is not a toy, and buyers should be aware of issues around it.

It is sufficient for sellers to provide a link to the wiki page, and make that page as complete as possible, keeping in mind that some readers will NOT have the capacities to understand all technicalities (I barely manage to untangle alpha, beta, becquerel, curie, and more... those readers will simply NOT read that part).

axd... you should do some more reading. There has been plenty of discussion before on this topic, and your rather over-dramatised comments have added nothing of value. The thread is closed.