bulbs & suggestions for new M6 shootout?

After some fine emails between me and DM51, I finally decided I will be doing a new "M6 shootout" in the style of the excellent thread DM51 made a while ago. This one is still by far the best until now, and has been called "the Bible of the M6"... which it is!

This thread, it may be clear, will be hard to improve upon. Sure, there have been new lamps since then, but.... that's about it! More room for improvement? I can hardly think WHAT could be improved!!

So, it may be time other members chime in, maybe they miss some bulbs and/or other things?

To start, I'll use as many different lamps as I can get my hands on. These ones will surely be in the shootout:

Original Surefire lamps:
- MN15 ("X-LOLA")
- MN20 (standard LA)
- MN 21 (with two old ICR 18650s - reducing voltage under load to 6.4V)

Lumens Factory lamps:
- HO-M3T
- EO-M3T
- IMR M3T
- HO-M6R
- IMR-M6

Welch Allyn lamps:

2-cell:
- WA1111 (6V / 3.35A / 465Lm / 100h)
- WA1164 (6V / 3.28A / 301Lm / 2500h)
- WA1274 (7.2V / 2.77A / 553Lm / 40h)
- WA1336 (6V / 0.64A / 56Lm / 525h)

3-cell:
- WA1108 (12V / 1.0A / 267Lm / 40h)
- WA1166 (11.6V / 1.97A / 704Lm / 20h)
- WA1185 (9.6V / 3.15A / 817Lm / 50h)
- WA1326 (12V / 0.8A / 171Lm / 1000h)
- WA1331 (9.6V / 1.93A / 534Lm / 35h)

Carley lamps:
- 809 (10.5V / 1.2A)
- 871 (11.5V / 0.63A)
- 926 (11.5V / 0.83A)

Fivemega lamps:
FM1909 (11.5V / 5.5A / ~2000Lm / 20 or 30h)

2-cell lamps will be fitted in an M6, using a Mdocod 2X 18650 holder and two AW IMR batteries.
3-cell lamps will be fitted in a Fivemega 3X 18650 Megalennium with KT-4 head, and will have 3X AW IMR 18650s in it.

Does anybody know a lamp I forgot about?? Or any other suggestions, OTHER than already covered in DM51s thread?

Then... please post them here! I have several months to prepare, so there is some time


Timmo.

SF N62

I just looked at the SF site, but... no N62! Did I look over it?

Timmo.

It's an old, out-of-production bulb that came with the 12ZM.

Another bulb to try is the MN60. For completeness, you could also repeat the tests that DM51 did for the MN16 and MN61.

@ Justin: I just want to test Li-ion compatible bulbs, and ALL SF HOLA's are in fact not compatible, they will be overdriven severely. The only one I'll include is the MN21, as this one is an original M6 lamp. I have a set-up with two old Lithium-Cobalt cells, that will sag under the brutal load of the MN21 to around 6.4V which is just about right.

Timmo.

N62 was meant to run on 4x123A. it is claimed to be a ~7.6V/3.7A bulb, so 2xLi-ion can be appropriate for this bulb. In fact, I've run it on 2xAW17670.

Both the MN60 and MN61 (which DM51 tested) are meant to run with 4x123A. True, DM51 found that the MN61 was seriously overdriven on 3xLi-ion, so the MN60 also probably would be way overdriven.

I am greatly looking forward to this! It is high time someone else did an up-to-date M6 thread, and Timmo has acquired all the knowledge necessary to do a great job. He has also been experimenting with far more combinations than I did, and I am confident that his project will become THE definitive M6 shootout.

It will be well worth considering including wquiles's PhD-M6 programmable hotwire driver for some of the tests. This will fior the first time make it a realistic proposition to use some bulbs that are otherwise very prone to instaflash with rechargeable packs, such as the MN21.

The concept of this regulated driver looks very nice indeed....

I only see one disadvantage over my setups: it uses 17670 batteries.... these have a low capacity (a higher internal resistance is no problem anymore, the regulator will take care of this).
The limit would be 3.2 Amps, (= 2C) so for a few lamps, it cannot be used (WA1111, WA1164, WA1185 is borderline, MN21 and FM1909 are overloading the cells in an unacceptable way...).

It would, however, be a perfect way to have a CONSTANT voltage for all the other bulbs I want to use :thumbsup:

Here, we would however introduce a problem: I would test the lamps with less current draw with the regulator, and the others with IMR cells, which is not a fair comparison. It will create an (unknown) difference once switched to the IMR cells...

The plan was, to partially deplete sets of IMR-cells, so they are in the relatively stable "middle region" of the discharge curve, in addition to use these cells ONLY at the moment the pictures will be taken - for test- and alignment purposes, I will carry extra cells.
For this moment, I think this is still the most honest way to compare all those lamps with each other.
I will have one Mdocod battery holder with 2X IMR batteries, and for the Megalennium I'll use another set.

I'll consider the "why not both - one is none, two is one" CPF approach however!
Why not compare, for instance, an MN20 on 2X Li-ion with the 7.4V regulated voltage you can get from the regulator?
This, in a 15 minute distance from each other.
1. a picture right from the start,
2. the same, 15 minutes later,
3. and again, 30 minutes from the start....
4. finally, after 45 minutes from the start.

I can see the result already.... the 2X 18650 setup dim more and more in time, while the output of the regulated one will be rock solid... until the battery protection kicks in!

Due to the PWM, a run time of around 50 minutes could be available with 3X 17670 as a supply, when output is 7.4V

So, I'll seriously consider buying such a regulated battery pack...


EDIT/addition:

MN60 will be a 10V lamp. It is a LOLA meant for 4X CR123A. These batteries will sag to around 2.5V each on a LOLA, so total will be around 10V which is too high for a 2-cell setup, but too low for a 3-cell setup.
MN61 is a HOLA for 4X CR123A, these batteries will sag to 2.2 .... 2.3V each under this fairly brutal load. This lamp should have a voltage of 8.8 to 9.2V which is, unfortunately, unsuitable for either a 2-cell or a 3-cell setup.
I looked at them before, I wanted to include them, but I rejected them because of their non-compatibility with any Li-ion setup....

Timmo.

Hi Timmo,

The RMS power consumption from the pack is the important part, not the peak current during each pulse of the pulsing regulator. The PhD can run the MN21 perfectly fine. In fact, the current peaks are hitting 7+ amps when driving the MN21, but the duty cycle is down around 50%.

We are getting 15-25 minutes runtime in testing. It's about a 2-3C load depending on the condition of the cells. Similar to people running the 18185 in many cases but it is important to keep continuous runs limited to a few minutes whenever possible for safety.

The PhD will be able to very safely drive a huge list of lamps, and the 6.8V setting will allow one to run the SF HOLA lamps at a reliable, regulated and soft started drive level.

Oh, and we are getting nearly 60 minutes on the MN20

Now if we could just get someone to make a 4.5V 2AH 17670 cell we would be golden!!!

Cheers!
Eric

Oh WOOOWW! Now I'm DEFINITELY in for one

Yes, I calculated with the peak currents, but they are not so bad for a Lithium Cobalt cell as I've read somewhere, I now remember!

60 minutes for an MN20... this will be around the same for the best 2X 18650 setup (2X 2600mAh).

And the 6.8V setting for the HOLA's.... perfect

Question: will it be possible, for me, to have a 6.0V lowest setting instead of the 4.8V one??

So now... the inevitable question.... WHEN will it be available


Timmo.

Hi Timmo,

Very roughly, I'd estimate at least several weeks before any are for sale (maybe 3-6 weeks?). Don't hold me to it just keep your eyes peeled on that BST in the coming weeks. I am building a small batch of units to send to Will this week, but we have to put together a few "production beta" units and put them through the paces before we start selling them.

Eric

3 to 6 weeks? NOOOO problem :thumbsup:

We won't have winter already by that time...

I'll patiently wait for them to be good enough for production!


Timmo.

I want to preface my statement by saying that DM51s shootout is legacy, but in owning about 5-6 different KT4 heads (some which came with a M6 and some purchased separately) I have seen every thing in the reflector from nearly SMO with tremendous throw to VLOP to LOP to some heads which are almost MOP. The difference between heads can really change the throw of the M6 even with the same bulb.

If I may suggest to use the same KT4 head throughout the shootout to keep the results as consistent as possible.

Other than that, the MN16 is the only other bulb I am not seeing as being listed.

So, you mean with STOCK (unmodded) KT-4 heads there can be a huge difference? Until now, I didn't notice any difference between the two I have, but... I have to admit, I never compared them side by side!

If there are just the slightest suspicions about there being a difference between them, I will just use ONE head. Or better: I WILL use one head, period.

Thanks for this very important remark!

The MN16 is a HOLA and cannot be used with any Li-ion setup directly. When I have that regulator, things will change, and I will include it then...


Timmo.

Sounds like it's going to be a great thread. It would be good to see the Surefire M3LT thrown in to the mix for interest

325addict said:

So, you mean with STOCK (unmodded) KT-4 heads there can be a huge difference? Until now, I didn't notice any difference between the two I have, but... I have to admit, I never compared them side by side!

If there are just the slightest suspicions about there being a difference between them, I will just use ONE head. Or better: I WILL use one head, period.

Thanks for this very important remark!

The MN16 is a HOLA and cannot be used with any Li-ion setup directly. When I have that regulator, things will change, and I will include it then...


Timmo.

Click to expand...

I have two head which are distinctly different at the moment. One is near MOP and the other VLOP. With same body and bulb and just changing heads you can get more throw or more spot.

I'll take a few pictures and post this afternoon.

OK, I'm curious to find out more on these different reflectors...

@Gallagho: I'm afraid I have to pass here. To shed out $450,- to just take the comparison is just a little toooo much.
Besides that, it's a LED light :green:

I'm willing to buy that regulated 3X 17670 holder, in order to:
A: be able to test Surefire HOLAs
B: to have the best conditions to compare lamps. It is by far the most honest method, when all lamps have exactly the same voltage. This will only work for the 2-cell lamps however, the regulator cannot step-up the voltage.

I'll have to buy extra 17670s as well then

This will involve some work and some good preparations, before driving into the woods
The final result, I hope, is of the same quality as the mother of all M6 threads by DM51... but I immediately give in: this thread is SO good, it will be very hard to improve upon!

Status 07-05-2010: all lamps listed above, except four Lumens Factory lamps, are in. Lumens Factory lamps have been ordered a few days ago....
Still have to order the MN16. In the Netherlands, this one is nearly impossible to get. And... sellers in the US don't ship them outside of the USA....
Does anybody have one for sale???


Timmo.

It's pretty hard to get a really good shot of the reflector, this is about the best I can do. The first one is a pretty heavy OP (maybe even more so that most of the KT4s I've owned. The second one appears to be a VLOP reflector and came from a slightly older M6 purchased. Most of the 5-6 other KT4 have been just a little less OP than the first on, but it is significant when it comes to a distance based showdown between lights.

If I put a WA1185 in the MOP reflector and a WA1111 in the VLOP (both focused perfectly), I can throw further with the dimmer light.

This IS indeed a difference

I will go the safe route for the tests, and just use ONE head...


Timmo.

OK guys, the four Lumens Factory lamps just came in:



Already in were three original SF lamps:



And, in addition, several WA lamps and the FM1909 (Carley lamps not included in this picture):



EDIT: found the Carley lamps as well, and... the four Fivemega MN bi-pin adapters



preparations are going well


Timmo.