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Thread: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Li-ion is definately not to be messed with. The only lights I own that take bare Li-ion cells are my Lummis. Even though they are single cell I always measure the voltage of the cell before and after charging to ensure safety - not charging a cell that has been depleted too far, and making sure my charger is doing it's job.

    This incident is unfortunate.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    i bought 4 of those, 3 take an hour to charge @3A and the 4th takes at least 2 hours at the same rate. needless to say i dont use these cells in any light, a waste of money.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    To avoid confusion I will clarify the Pila IBC was not involved in the explosion at all, I was simply responding to a comment someone made.

    Quote Originally Posted by XanderH View Post
    I'm not sure if it's "real" by your definitions, but the Pila IBC does have a "CE Approved" logo on it.
    I would guess by real he/she means it actually complies with CE. Anyone can of course print something onto a sticker or whatever and many junk manufacturers do of course stick CE marks on their products even though they don't comply similar to UL and other things. The slightly more honest Chinese ones will claim it means "China Export" when queried not Conformité Européenne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark (many don't even use a correct CE mark although whether that's intentional or incompetence I don't know I'm guessing the later) http://highfields-arc.6te.net/geninfo/thecemark.htm . In most developed countries with strong consumer protection laws such claims would not likely help anything but outside of Europe people may not care or know what the CE is so they may be able to get away with it. If it really complies you should be able to get documentation from someone similar to e.g. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/s...accucel-A6.jpg for the Accucel.

    The Pila IBC may not exactly be junk but while that means it's less likely to have a fake CE, that's no guarantee in itself it really complies. If reliable sellers in Europe sell it's probably really CE otherwise they'd be in deep shit. However your best bet is probably to ask for some seller or Pila themselves to provide the documentation. (I didn't find any from a quick search.) Of course documentation itself isn't a guarantee but most don't go that far and you could always research it further.
    Last edited by Nil Einne; 07-14-2010 at 04:30 PM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Nil Einne, your post is not relevant. This incident had nothing to do with a Pila IBC charger - it was a junk Ultrafire charger with mismatched junk Ultrafire cells in it.
    Resistance is futile...

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Nil Einne wasn't directly commenting on the incident that started the thread, he was continuing the sub-discussion on finding certified electrically safe consumer 2-bay Li-ion chargers. That sub-discussion started with advice to modify a charger designed for self-contained consumer electronics (like a cell phone), or go for a hobby charger, because all the simple ones are supposedly unsafe.

    Why is that sub-discussion not relevant now, when it's already been running for two weeks? Honestly asking here, especially since finding safe chargers seems to be entirely relevant to reducing the chances of an unpleasant incident...

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    There are dozens and dozens of other threads that discuss the Pila IBC, and every single one of them makes it crystal clear that it is an excellent charger, by far and away the best of the 2-bay "plug and play" chargers.

    It is quite unnecessary to head so far off topic in this thread as to traduce the Pila IBC's reputation by making a post in this thread that could be misinterpreted as meaning that it had something to do with the incident in post #1 and therefore that there may be something wrong with it.
    Resistance is futile...

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Quote Originally Posted by DM51 View Post
    There are dozens and dozens of other threads that discuss the Pila IBC, and every single one of them makes it crystal clear that it is an excellent charger, by far and away the best of the 2-bay "plug and play" chargers.

    It is quite unnecessary to head so far off topic in this thread as to traduce the Pila IBC's reputation by making a post in this thread that could be misinterpreted as meaning that it had something to do with the incident in post #1 and therefore that there may be something wrong with it.
    I apologise, I didn't think people would make that mistake. I have clarified my post to avoid the confusion. Feel free to PM me with suggestions if you feel it still isn't clear enough.

    While I agree it's OT, the question of whether the Pila IBC has CE rating was raised by someone in t his thread, which someone else responded to without apparently really understanding the question. I felt it necessary to clarify what I felt was obviously meant and at the same time point out that having a CE mark doesn't guarantee an item is compliant with CE. In fact, the WF-139 which was involved with this case does have a CE mark but almost definitely is not compliant with CE somewhat proving the point I was making. I would also point out that again that being a excellent charger, which I never disputed, doesn't mean the Pila IBC is CE compliant.

    I won't discuss this anymore, for starters I don't really care about whether or not the Pila IBC has CE and I do agree it's gone too far off topic now but I do think it is vital people understand that having a CE mark in no way guarantees an item is compliant with CE.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    I use Ultrafire 18650 3.7v 3000mAh all the times (in case it's rechargeable cr123a 3.0v-3.6v, i will go for GL brand which is very good). After each charge I will check if the voltage is within limit before putting them back into my flashlight, or stock as spares. I don't use different type or brand of bats in the same light (change all bats at the same time, not half of it). Always the same brand/model/voltage class/mAh. And lastly, I used auto cut-off in my charger (which is Ultrafire WF-139). But becareful, UF is a famous brand and always come out with copies, yes by their own chinese people. There are hi-end chinese lights and batteries companies, but you have to pick the right ones. Never had a problem with genuine chinese brands batteries in all of my night patrols
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  9. #69
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    I now read the complete thread on "messerforum.de" and these UF batteries turned out to have no protection PCB.
    His wife already noticed "the light was very dim" so the batteries will have been severely over-discharged.
    The cells had been charged a few dozen times, and were 1 year old, who knows how many times the cells had been overdischarged by now??
    Then, he charged two of the three batteries overnight(!) in a WF-139 charger (version still unknown) and one cell he charged later, this one was "not hot" when it came out. Hmmmm, it should have been COLD, even the slightest warm-up of a Li-cobalt cell NOT caused by the charger itself should ring all alarm bells

    Coincidence or not, I have two of these cells also.
    I noticed from the beginning, that after charging one of them had a slightly higher voltage, and they just could not hold voltage very well under heavy loads (think of incans drawing in excess of 2 Amps).
    You could actually SEE it with your bare eyes, my Surefire M6 didn't have as much output as with 2 AW cells...
    Not until recently, I knew why this happened... one of the cells is just pure junk! It reaches a capacity of just over 800mAh, while the other one seems sound @ 2400mAh.
    I'll ditch the bad one as soon as possible...

    Timmo.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    I was fortunate in getting one of the better versions of the WF-139 charger awhile back. Still, even if you luck out like I did, that Ultrafire charger is a very basic unit. Charging cells overnight must NEVER be done! I charged my AW cells on it at work. I kept a constant eye on the charger. The moment the light turned from red to green, I pulled the cells out of it. I then placed the cells aside for a couple of hours to let them cool down before use. That charger has no shut-off feature. It'll keep charging . . . all night . . . If you leave it that way.

    And once again, Ultrafire cells themselves are unreliable junk. I'm glad I didn't learn that lesson the hard way.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    I wouldn't be so sure that you have the better one. The "good" WF-139 sold by AW has no trickle charge and will completely stop charging when the light turns green.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Quote Originally Posted by jirik_cz View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure that you have the better one. The "good" WF-139 sold by AW has no trickle charge and will completely stop charging when the light turns green.
    ? Who tested it and found those results ?

    Link please .
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  13. #73
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    There has been some reports, but I don't have the link. I verified it with my two samples.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    It's just best not to put too much faith into Ultrafire products. Especially with their cells and chargers. I rely mainly on primary cells, so a basic charger is fine for my needs.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Quote Originally Posted by Monocrom View Post
    I rely mainly on primary cells, so a basic charger is fine for my needs.
    You use a (basic) charger for primary cells?

    I'm just kidding. I know that's not what you meant.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Hi to all....

    I was doing a little research on an ultrafire c8 that i want to buy on ebay, for a bicycle headlight setup.... and i fell on this page...

    The light includes two 18650 Ultrafire protected batteries and a WF-139 charger. It also states that the light only takes one battery (which from what i've read on this topic makes it safer?).

    Is there any way i can tell if they are protected and if this is going to be a safe setup?

    I'm a complete newb to both lighting and batteries...

    Are auction links allowed here? I'll post the product photos for now and if auction links are allowed i'll let me know so i can post it.

    Thanks in advance to everyone.

    [hotlinked images deleted - DM51]
    Last edited by DM51; 03-01-2012 at 08:45 AM.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Can someone please explain the difference in discharging to 3.6, 3.5 and 2.75?
    I have Trustfire protected cells which I have discharged below 3.6, but probably not below 2.75. I thought the protection would kick in if they got too low, but I never wanted to chance it.
    After reading this thread, I am a little worried and trying to figure out how safe I am with these cells.
    They run a bike lamp and are in multicell packs (holders), but not in a tube that can explode.

    thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by aurum View Post
    I did this some time ago:


  18. #78

    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Makedonas, I suggest you buy the light separately and get a good cell like AWs. Now that Aw offers 2900mah 18650s its even better for single cell lights. You also want a way better charger than that.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    I am new to rechargeables, as I have always used 123A's.
    I have just purchased AW 18650 2900mAh batteries Protected & Flat-top), and a Pila Charger.
    I figured if I started off with what appears to be top of the line goods, I'll have less risk of something going wrong

    I will test voltage after charging though, to make sure I am not Overcharged.
    I will also test voltage after removing them from my light, after use. I don't know if that is necessary to do every time though. But I will test intermittently, unless suggested otherwise.
    I don't buy cheap parts for my Bike, and I don't buy cheap ammo. Both can be hazardous to your life, and that is why I don't take a chance with cheap batteries or chargers. But I will try to puchase top quality stuff for a good price, as long as they are the real mcoy

    I am getting the P-Rocket 800+ lumens which also has a protected circuit in it regarding discharge. I presume that means I will be double protected, between the protected circuit in the flashlight, in addition to the battery.
    I don't know if all LED lights have a protected circuit built in. I would think they do, but am not sure.
    Seems less trouble to use 123A's when possible, but I won't get the most out of my lights. I spent $120 between batteries and a charger, so hopefully I can put them to safe use.
    I have read only good things about the Pila which is why I purchased it from BugOutGear.

    Btw, Paul looks like he also injured his thumb. Looks like it could have been a UCL tear. Nevertheless, I hope you are having a good recovery, as it has been less than 3 months since your injuries.
    Last edited by biker1; 09-13-2010 at 09:44 PM. Reason: typo/add'l info

  20. #80

    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Quote Originally Posted by old4570 View Post

    And an important warning for anyone running a multi Li-ion set up is to check the charge state of the batteries , as often one battery discharges faster than the other . So it might be an idea to number the batteries so you can periodically swap them from front to back , to give them more even discharge .
    It wont make a difference what order you put two batteries, or 3 or 4 in.. They are all in series and see the same current regardless.

  21. #81

    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    I'm sure happy I read this thread. I'm a newb and just bought a double Li-ion cell flash light with plans on using an unprotected Panasonic 18650 with a WF139 charger. YIKES! Going to make sure now to get a Voltmeter, AW protected cells and a decent charger like a PILA. My unprotected 18650's well run in My Klarus XT10 now. Thanks guys!!!

  22. #82
    *Flashaholic* Monocrom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Glad you found the thread.
    "The World is insane. With tiny spots of sanity, here and there... Not the other way around!" - John Cleese.

  23. #83
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    Exclamation Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Quote Originally Posted by TranceAddict View Post
    the safest way to charge your battery is to put the charging set inside a big metal box (wall thickness >3mm ) with sufficient ventilation vane, and hook the supply through a high sensitivity MCB and ELCB or RCCD or even earth fault relay. you can then leave them unattended without problem, even if it vent or exploded the metal box will be able to quence the fireball and metal derbris propel by shockwave.

    battery are very unlikely to explode during use even you drain it to very low voltage, you only need to be aware not to short the cell inside battery tube, for instant scratched packaging allow the battery to touch the wall inside, some poorly design spring, contact nipple, too short length of battery tube will simply crush the protection PCB and cause an effective short, but due to the force from spring the safety strip off contact in protected battery might not able to open circuit the current path. LED driver might has switching transistors, when they went bad they become shorted as well. the flashlight will take very less time to burst violently given that only very small room allow for vent gas expansion.

    so always be alert, check frequently each time you recharge to see if there is any damage on plastic wrapping and both terminal, if then light output suddenly act funny or you hear hissing sound, immediately put the light on vertical standing position then run away.
    THE BOTTOM LINE........

  24. #84

    Default Re: Weak point in Protected Cells only

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAusC View Post
    EVERY protected cell I've seen has a weak point that could lead to the cell exploding. Unprotected cells do not have this danger.

    To feed the postive voltage to the control circuit at the negative end of the cell, a thin strip of metal runs from the + end of the cell to the - end. This strip carrying + is only separated from the negative case by a thin piece of insulating tape.

    If this metal strip has a burr on it, or if there is any impact or pressure on the cell in this area, there will be a very direct short circuit across the cell that the PCB cannot control.

    NEVER force the cell into a tight fit or drop the cell that could lead to this thin insulation being weakened.
    Absolutely agree with the above statement, I was shocked when I first unwrapped some protected cells and the very poor design I saw in the ones I looked at. I prefer good unprotected cells, in a multi cell light as long as the light has a decent low voltage cutoff circuit, the cells being used are capable of a 4 amp discharge without any trouble, have low internal resistance and discharge at similar rates reaching similar voltages at the end.. In fact my latest crop of batteries are all unprotected. That said, you do need to do discharge/charge tests (with a proper charger) and use a multimeter to ascertain the characteristics of the cells your using, and determine whether they are best for series or parallel applications. After that a regular check could be enough.

    Interestingly I recently bought some very cheap 3000 mah GTL unprotected flattops, tested them and as expected only 950-1000 mah capacity. I thought these are crap, but on further testing found them to have some quite interesting characteristics. Even though capacity is low, they will pretty much give of their full capacity at 1A or even up to 4A (I later tried 5A for a while, but only for 5 m). I seriously abused one with a 4A discharge and it gave almost the full 1000mah, quite amazing, there was a large voltage drop of course, but not enough to cause a problem. Didn't get warm, charged up fine again, very low internal resistance. Used a couple in my 3 XML-T6 Torch and it sucked 2.5 rising to 3+ amps out of them for a good 17 minutes before the torch protection circuit cut in (drawing more than 4A at the end). I was hugely impressed, all from cheap as chips batteries with a god awful capacity, but terrific current capability. If they could make the same cell characteristics with a 2400 capacity....I would happily buy nothing else, unfortunately I suspect high, capacity, current capability and low internal resistance don't go together (especially so in cheap batteries). The point of this is, these cells are great in torches for very bright light (not for very long though), but crap for usb battery boxes and that all cells however much they cost, need to be properly tested for the application. I find it amazing that many people rely on 1A discharge curves, especially when many high power flashlights suck out 2.5-3.5 amps.
    Last edited by davec; 08-06-2011 at 03:41 PM.

  25. #85

    Default Re: Weak point in Protected Cells only

    Guys, should I throw all my UltraFire cells to be recycled ?

    I read about WOW/Hi Max cells, the review seems not so bad about it & I have 4 of them, seems pretty good, maybe half year down, I'll order a couple of AW's 18650 then

    btw, after I joined this forum, only know where I can find AW cells

  26. #86
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    Default Re: Weak point in Protected Cells only

    Quote Originally Posted by iron potato View Post
    Guys, should I throw all my UltraFire cells to be recycled ?

    I read about WOW/Hi Max cells, the review seems not so bad about it & I have 4 of them, seems pretty good, maybe half year down, I'll order a couple of AW's 18650 then

    btw, after I joined this forum, only know where I can find AW cells
    Hi iron potato.

    You can head on over to the marketplace and get some.
    http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sho...art-12*/page54
    Flashlight Selection Process: Pick any two, and only two of the following: Bright, Cheap, Long-Runtime.

  27. #87
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    So, you guys have taken a class in electronics and didn't pay a damn bit of attention huh?

    IN A PERFECT WORLD, batteries in series will have the same current and draw. THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, let alone perfect cells. As people have said, cells have internal resistance and it is nearly impossible to have them be perfect.

    STOP SPOUTING FALSE INFORMATION !
    Sorry, I've been a lurker, and sick of people with 4/5 posts putting rubbish online.
    Last edited by Norm; 08-09-2011 at 01:50 PM. Reason: Lanuage

  28. #88
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    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    Quote Originally Posted by MDethCKR View Post
    So, you guys have taken a class in electronics and didn't pay a damn bit of attention huh?

    IN A PERFECT WORLD, batteries in series will have the same current and draw. THIS IS NOT A PERFECT WORLD, let alone perfect cells. As people have said, cells have internal resistance and it is nearly impossible to have them be perfect.

    STOP SPOUTING FALSE INFORMATION !
    Sorry, I've been a lurker, and sick of people with 4/5 posts putting rubbish online.
    Calm down there, Hoss.

    It doesn't matter if cells have internal resistance. If they are in series, the same amount of current will flow through all of them. Internal resistance will cause different amounts of voltage drop in different cells under discharge, but the current flowing through each of them will be exactly the same.

    Current flow = electrons moving. Picture 3 cells in series. You are saying that cell 1 could have 500 electrons flow through it into cell 2, which could have 400 electrons flow through it into cell 3, which could have 300 electrons flow through it. Where would the disappearing electrons go?

    I hope my number of posts meets with your approval.

  29. #89

    Wink Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    The important question is.....does the torch still work?

  30. #90

    Default Re: Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded

    im not an expert,im using ultra fire and fireworm 18650 3000ma both say re/discharging protection circuit my 123's are spyder fire my chargers say travel charger on them for both batteries,from what im reading here i thing i need to change my set up to something safer,please reccomend chargers , 18650 and 123 batteries.
    thanks spiro

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