HID Light Current Draw

350xfire

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Guys, I have a 12W HID I had a battery pack built for... 2 actually. One is a 6-cell 3s/2p and the other is a 9-cell 3s/3p... The light strikes when switch is turned off but will not remain lit.

Hypothesis- PCB used will not support the strike amperage....

So, how many amps do the HIDs draw on start up? 10W/12W/24W/55W, etc

I realize this is an HID question but it is for a dive light and figure there is enough knowledge here.

Thanks
 

350xfire

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OK, so I did a test with a 55W automotive HID with slim ballast and it fired the bulb just fine. The 12W is a Brightstar with round ballast. I now wonder why I can fire up the automotive and not the Brightstar. The BS also runs right with my Salvo 11.1 V battery pack....
 

wquiles

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You are only sharing with us the configuration of the cells (one is 6-cell 3s/2p and the other is a 9-cell 3s/3p). What exactly are the cells you are using? Type, brand, capacity, chemistry, protected or not protected, etc.
 

350xfire

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You are only sharing with us the configuration of the cells (one is 6-cell 3s/2p and the other is a 9-cell 3s/3p). What exactly are the cells you are using? Type, brand, capacity, chemistry, protected or not protected, etc.

Good point sorry... They are the blue (Trust Fire/Ultra Fire) from DX rated at 2600mah. LiIon assembled with PCB.

I ran my 55W automotive kit with them for a few minutes and ran great. However, the brightstar bulb will not run with the packs....
 

wquiles

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Good point sorry... They are the blue (Trust Fire/Ultra Fire) from DX rated at 2600mah. LiIon assembled with PCB.

I ran my 55W automotive kit with them for a few minutes and ran great. However, the brightstar bulb will not run with the packs....

Two guesses:
- 3 cells in series might be barely above what the ballast can tolerate - that would explain why it runs fine from the 11 volt supply. Do you have a way to test the BS with an adjustable power supply to see if you can verify if the problem is related to the input voltage range?

- the protection circuitry PCB or the cell's built-in protection is probably shutting down the cells, preventing the steady state operation. A voltmeter is of no use since the peak current is too fast to capture (you can only read the steady state, RMS value), so if you have a local friend with a storage scope you could then "see" a little bit better that is going on.

Will
 

350xfire

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Two guesses:
- 3 cells in series might be barely above what the ballast can tolerate - that would explain why it runs fine from the 11 volt supply. Do you have a way to test the BS with an adjustable power supply to see if you can verify if the problem is related to the input voltage range?

- the protection circuitry PCB or the cell's built-in protection is probably shutting down the cells, preventing the steady state operation. A voltmeter is of no use since the peak current is too fast to capture (you can only read the steady state, RMS value), so if you have a local friend with a storage scope you could then "see" a little bit better that is going on.

Will


Yes, I have a lab power supply and the light runs fine from 10.5 volts all the way up to the 16v shut down.

I guess the automotive ballast, even though 3 times the power, it regulates differently? Do you think the BS takes that much strike current, more than the 55w system?

Thanks
 

wquiles

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I of course can't know for sure, but I do know that here in the forum we have had our fare share of the cell's built-in protection causing problems for many projects, specially with incandescent bulbs that draw a very high amount of current when the filament is cold (and therefore the resistance lowest).

I don't know much about HID systems (I played with them and did not like them), but since you are telling me that the BS is working when used with a power/battery source that does not have the protection circuitry, that to me is a strong clue. That is is why I suggested the protection circuitry might be the problem here.
 

350xfire

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I of course can't know for sure, but I do know that here in the forum we have had our fare share of the cell's built-in protection causing problems for many projects, specially with incandescent bulbs that draw a very high amount of current when the filament is cold (and therefore the resistance lowest).

I don't know much about HID systems (I played with them and did not like them), but since you are telling me that the BS is working when used with a power/battery source that does not have the protection circuitry, that to me is a strong clue. That is is why I suggested the protection circuitry might be the problem here.

So question still remains why the 55w system runs fine but the 12W will not. Is the BS ballast that much of a power hog on start?

Also, I have a 10amp protection board on the battery packs. The pack is protected, not the ind cells. Surely the BS will not pull 120W during start up??

Thanks
 

wquiles

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I don't know the startup current draw for these modules, so I am hopping other forum members can comment on that. What I do know is that what you are experiencing does sound "similar" to the problem with incandescent bulbs and protected cells.

In my PhD-M6 project (link in my signature) I am developing a regulated driver for the SureFire M6 incandescent flashlight, and I can tell you first hand that some of the cells' built in protection circuitry can and do shutdown due to the high amperage, even though the high amperage condition is "brief" in duration. Specifically, I have found that the older blue-label AW protected 17670 cells can't give the 9Amp peak currents that my driver demands when using the MN-21 bulb, but the newer black-label AW 17670 protected cells "do" manage those high currents. The difference between the two cells is mostly the protection circuitry.

In your design you are telling us that the cells are not protected, but that you are using a protection circuitry in front of them. My guess is that your BS setup is experiencing the same situation in which (although brief) the starting current might be just high enough to trip the protection circuitry.

A simple test to verify (or not) my theory is to simply bypass the protection circuitry completely, and tie your BS setup directly to the cells. If the BS light comes ON, then you have verified what the problem is. If the BS lights does not, then we might have to look elsewhere for another theory/idea.

Will
 

350xfire

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I don't know the startup current draw for these modules, so I am hopping other forum members can comment on that. What I do know is that what you are experiencing does sound "similar" to the problem with incandescent bulbs and protected cells.

In my PhD-M6 project (link in my signature) I am developing a regulated driver for the SureFire M6 incandescent flashlight, and I can tell you first hand that some of the cells' built in protection circuitry can and do shutdown due to the high amperage, even though the high amperage condition is "brief" in duration. Specifically, I have found that the older blue-label AW protected 17670 cells can't give the 9Amp peak currents that my driver demands when using the MN-21 bulb, but the newer black-label AW 17670 protected cells "do" manage those high currents. The difference between the two cells is mostly the protection circuitry.

In your design you are telling us that the cells are not protected, but that you are using a protection circuitry in front of them. My guess is that your BS setup is experiencing the same situation in which (although brief) the starting current might be just high enough to trip the protection circuitry.

A simple test to verify (or not) my theory is to simply bypass the protection circuitry completely, and tie your BS setup directly to the cells. If the BS light comes ON, then you have verified what the problem is. If the BS lights does not, then we might have to look elsewhere for another theory/idea.

Will

Hey just curious, where do you get those fancy battery holders? Thise are pretty nice. Also, how much? Not interested in the modded one just an empty one.
 

wquiles

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Hey just curious, where do you get those fancy battery holders? Thise are pretty nice. Also, how much? Not interested in the modded one just an empty one.

Those awesome adapters are made by forum member mdocod (real name Eric) for this specific PhD-M6 project, and at least those are not available separately for sale since they would be useless without my driver board.

What being said, Eric does make many other adapter types for the Mag bodies and for other lights, including a generic 3x17670 adapter for the M6 (that can't work with my driver board), and he sells them here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3326024#post3326024

Will
 

350xfire

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Those awesome adapters are made by forum member mdocod (real name Eric) for this specific PhD-M6 project, and at least those are not available separately for sale since they would be useless without my driver board.

What being said, Eric does make many other adapter types for the Mag bodies and for other lights, including a generic 3x17670 adapter for the M6 (that can't work with my driver board), and he sells them here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3326024#post3326024

Will

Thanks Will... Those are awesome!!!
 
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